High Speed Rail

**rondinjp** · December-09-10, 08:55 AM

I heard on the way into work this morning that our <Sarcasm On> Hard Working, Dedicated <Sarcasm Off> State Legislatures failed to pass the matching funds for the $180 Million fed loans that was supposed to be used for the rail line between here and Chicago. Does anyone have more info about this and if it is still salvageable by the newly-elected, incoming legislatures?

According to the report, Mike Bishop was working hard to get it passed but for whatever reason it never made it to the floor for a vote.

**esp1986** · December-09-10, 09:03 AM

This is disappointing. Rick Snyder has said it is a priority to 'move transit forward' in this state. Beginning with Detroit and the heavy rail passenger corridors like this one. Hopefully it can be salvaged and the funds aren't forfeited.

**ghettopalmetto** · December-09-10, 09:09 AM

Eh, no worries. Ohio has $400 million and Wisconsin has $800 million that will be up for grabs, since those incredibly-advanced states don't need no dang stinking choo choo trains.

**bailey** · December-09-10, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

Eh, no worries. Ohio has $400 million and Wisconsin has $800 million that will be up for grabs, since those incredibly-advanced states don't need no dang stinking choo choo trains.

It doesn't matter how much money is sitting in the Federal pot if the incoming republican super majorities refuse to allow the requisite matching funds...right?

**ghettopalmetto** · December-09-10, 11:11 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

It doesn't matter how much money is sitting in the Federal pot if the incoming republican super majorities refuse to allow the requisite matching funds...right?

No matching funds required. This is 100% federal financing.

**bailey** · December-09-10, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

No matching funds required. This is 100% federal financing.

Michigan will send $161 million in federal high-speed rail funds back to Washington, D.C., if the state Senate doesn’t take action to approve the required matching funds.
Two statewide environmental groups issued a statement today, urging senators to follow the lead of the state House and put up the $37 million needed to trigger the federal dollars.

That includes a $150 million federal grant for high-speed rail improvements along the Detroit-to-Chicago corridor, which Ann Arbor officials have been celebrating.

are we talking about something different? arent the matching funds the whole "reason" wisc and ohio turned down the money?

**old guy** · December-09-10, 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

are we talking about something different? arent the matching funds the whole "reason" wisc and ohio turned down the money?

No. The new meatheads that are in office here in Wi. claimed we couldn't afford the maintenance costs. Arkansas is now officially a more progressive state than Wisconsin. We want Feingold back.

**rondinjp** · December-09-10, 12:06 PM

Originally Posted by old guy

No. The new meatheads that are in office here in Wi. claimed we couldn't afford the maintenance costs. Arkansas is now officially a more progressive state than Wisconsin. We want Feingold back.

No, the report stated that Ohio and Wisconsin funds have not yet been rejected, but most likely will be as the newly elected Governors refuse to use the money for rail and instead want to use it for roads. Fed. Gov. said you can't do that and it has to be used for rails. Fed. Transportation Dept. will reallocate funds if Ohio and WI. refuse to use it for rail.

If they refuse [[according to the report) then MI. Illinois, et. seq. will be able to move in and petition for these funds. However, they will still need to meet the minimal matching fund amounts to receive these dollars.

**rb336** · December-09-10, 12:07 PM

Typical short-sighted right-wing crap. Infrastructure shouldn't be built if it doesn't pay for itself! bull$#!*. Infrastructure never has paid for itself - directly. It pays with increased job development and the increased tax revenue that comes from more jobs. Let the high-speed rail go buh bye. Ditto for the DRIC. Kiss goodbye any future for the logistics industry in Michigan

**esp1986** · December-09-10, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by rb336

Typical short-sighted right-wing crap. Infrastructure shouldn't be built if it doesn't pay for itself! bull$#!*. Infrastructure never has paid for itself - directly. It pays with increased job development and the increased tax revenue that comes from more jobs. Let the high-speed rail go buh bye. Ditto for the DRIC. Kiss goodbye any future for the logistics industry in Michigan

Exactly. Freeway infrastructure NEVER pays for itself. Also, look at air travel infrastructure. The cost of maintaining, [[security, etc.) is never covered by the sales, and the airports are built and maintained bo local governments. In fact, there aren't even many profitable airlines left.

**Gannon** · December-09-10, 12:19 PM

There was a poignant point made on NPR during the news cycle, I think, or perhaps an interviewee of Terri Gross' who made the observation that China created and built an entire nation-full of high speed rail in THREE YEARS, while it has taken us longer to decide whether or not it would be worth the effort and expense.

THAT is the indictment of our country...and obvious proof of the decline of our empire...if not the eulogy.

**Gannon** · December-09-10, 12:21 PM

Ah, but Southwest continues to be the SUCCESSFUL red-headed stepchild of the industry, even despite the seemingly obvious efforts of Homeland Security/TSA to make it SO difficult for their customers to jump on their 'air-busses' [[and I'm NOT talking manufacturer names, but rather ridership approaches).

**ghettopalmetto** · December-09-10, 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by rondinjp

No, the report stated that Ohio and Wisconsin funds have not yet been rejected, but most likely will be as the newly elected Governors refuse to use the money for rail and instead want to use it for roads. Fed. Gov. said you can't do that and it has to be used for rails. Fed. Transportation Dept. will reallocate funds if Ohio and WI. refuse to use it for rail.

If they refuse [[according to the report) then MI. Illinois, et. seq. will be able to move in and petition for these funds. However, they will still need to meet the minimal matching fund amounts to receive these dollars.

The monies awarded to Ohio and Wisconsin were part of the initial $8 billion allocation for high speed rail, and do not require a state-level match. The states do, however, need to come up with operational funding--estimated at $17 million a year in Ohio, or about the same amount ODOT spends on litter pickup and cutting grass. In the context of an annual $2 billion+ statewide budget for roads, the rail operating costs are a drop in the bucket.

The funds awarded to Michigan were part of a later $2.4 billion allocation, and it appears these funds do require a partial match from the states.

**casscorridor** · December-09-10, 12:40 PM

If Snyder is the economic development governor, he should support the high-speed rail initiative and force the senate to pass the neccesary matching funds. We could get more than initially thought.

He should also support the DRIC and the new tunnel crossing.

And a regional transit authority that can collect tax revenue from SE Mich to fund transit infrastructure that will benifit the entire region and state.

He should also continue the film incentives and push for more incentives for the clean energy industry such as wind turbine manufacturing as well as the alternative transportation industry such as transit rolling stock manufacturing.

All things that can be acomplished in the first year. Will he do it?

**Novine** · December-09-10, 12:42 PM

"According to the report, Mike Bishop was working hard to get it passed but for whatever reason it never made it to the floor for a vote."

This is a joke. The phrases "working hard" and "Mike Bishop" don't go together unless he was trying to kill something. If it failed to pass, it was because Bishop didn't want it to pass.

**esp1986** · December-09-10, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

The monies awarded to Ohio and Wisconsin were part of the initial $8 billion allocation for high speed rail, and do not require a state-level match. The states do, however, need to come up with operational funding--estimated at $17 million a year in Ohio, or about the same amount ODOT spends on litter pickup and cutting grass. In the context of an annual $2 billion+ statewide budget for roads, the rail operating costs are a drop in the bucket.

The funds awarded to Michigan were part of a later $2.4 billion allocation, and it appears these funds do require a partial match from the states.

Michigan's allocation is for some modest improvements. Some that require little in long term upkeep, as none of it is for anything operational. So all the money spent is to create jobs with no long term committment.

**esp1986** · December-09-10, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

If Snyder is the economic development governor, he should support the high-speed rail initiative and force the senate to pass the neccesary matching funds. We could get more than initially thought.

He should also support the DRIC and the new tunnel crossing.

And a regional transit authority that can collect tax revenue from SE Mich to fund transit infrastructure that will benifit the entire region and state.

He should also continue the film incentives and push for more incentives for the clean energy industry such as wind turbine manufacturing as well as the alternative transportation industry such as transit rolling stock manufacturing.

All things that can be acomplished in the first year. Will he do it?

Snyder is FOR transit, in most any form. He is AGAINST tax credits, for film or otherwise, he says he would rather see that money go to companies that are already in state. I don't know where he stands on DRIC.

**bailey** · December-09-10, 12:49 PM

Originally Posted by Gannon

There was a poignant point made on NPR during the news cycle, I think, or perhaps an interviewee of Terri Gross' who made the observation that China created and built an entire nation-full of high speed rail in THREE YEARS, while it has taken us longer to decide whether or not it would be worth the effort and expense.

THAT is the indictment of our country...and obvious proof of the decline of our empire...if not the eulogy.

Uh hold on there... if you want a Chinese-like rail system here, you need to embrace a totalitarian government that will remove you from your home and take your property if it happens to be standing the way of the track.

**rooms222** · December-09-10, 01:13 PM

The Ohio and Wisconsin monies have already been reallocated far away from the Midwest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/us/10rail.html?hp

The weaker the rail network in the Midwest, the weaker Michigan's network will be, even if it is built.......

**Gannon** · December-09-10, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Uh hold on there... if you want a Chinese-like rail system here, you need to embrace a totalitarian government that will remove you from your home and take your property if it happens to be standing the way of the track.

No, I don't.

What a strange conclusion. This attitude seems to be part of the problem...you are not alone with this illogic.

Plus, our current rail system was built on illegal and unethical doings in a time when 'eminent domain' wasn't yet codified...but now OUR government can act like the robber-baron railroaders with a stroke of a pen. How is that ANY different than the behavior you call out on the Chinese system?!

**ghettopalmetto** · December-09-10, 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by rooms222

The Ohio and Wisconsin monies have already been reallocated far away from the Midwest.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/10/us/10rail.html?hp

The weaker the rail network in the Midwest, the weaker Michigan's network will be, even if it is built.......

Whoops, sorry about that! My apologies to the now-and-future peasants of Ohiobama.

**rb336** · December-09-10, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Gannon

There was a poignant point made on NPR during the news cycle, I think, or perhaps an interviewee of Terri Gross' who made the observation that China created and built an entire nation-full of high speed rail in THREE YEARS, while it has taken us longer to decide whether or not it would be worth the effort and expense.

THAT is the indictment of our country...and obvious proof of the decline of our empire...if not the eulogy.

He who has the best infrastructure wins. What is so hard to grasp about that concept?

**Gannon** · December-09-10, 04:57 PM

No doubt.

**Mikeg** · December-09-10, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by Gannon

There was a poignant point made on NPR during the news cycle, I think, or perhaps an interviewee of Terri Gross' who made the observation that China created and built an entire nation-full of high speed rail in THREE YEARS, while it has taken us longer to decide whether or not it would be worth the effort and expense.

THAT is the indictment of our country...and obvious proof of the decline of our empire...if not the eulogy.

Your "poignant point" is neither an indictment nor an obvious proof of anything.

While Chinese authorities are questioning whether they built too much high-speed rail too quickly, high-speed rail promoters in this country continue to hold the Chinese up as a shining example and denigrate their own country for not blindly following suit.

From the November 7, 2010 Financial Times:

Beijing reviews high-speed rail plans

By Jamil Anderlini in Beijing

Published: November 7 2010 19:56 | Last updated: November 7 2010 19:56

China’s Ministry of Railways is conducting a review of the country’s ambitious high-speed rail proposals after an influential state-backed think-tank raised questions about the affordability and practicality of the planned network.

In a report submitted by the China Academy of Science to the State Council, experts urged a rethink of the emphasis on massive infrastructure investment, particularly the bullet train expansion programme.

One of the concerns expressed in the report is the unsustainable level of debt that has propelled rail building projects across the country, particularly since the government launched its stimulus package in late 2008 to combat the effects of the global economic crisis.

[[snip)

But with dozens of new lines scheduled to open in the next two years, the high-speed connections already in operation are being carefully scrutinised.

Critics point out that bullet train services, such as the 1,000km Wuhan to Guangzhou connection that opened this year, are operating at less than half their full capacity and will never make enough money to repay the large bank loans used to build them.

**laphoque** · December-09-10, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Uh hold on there... if you want a Chinese-like rail system here, you need to embrace a totalitarian government that will remove you from your home and take your property if it happens to be standing the way of the track.

You might want to look into the history of the US Interstate Highway System.

A totalitarian government is not a requirement for an impressive rail system. Go take a ride on the rest of the industrialized world's trains and feel shame that the US continuously bickers such progress away.