'stay and fight'

[rustic2]

"Stay and fight."
I've long wondered about those words, often uttered in conversations about staying in Detroit versus moving to the suburbs -- or exurbs -- for safer, supposedly greener, pastures.
I don't have to tell anybody on this forum that, historically, the people who talked and thought about staying and fighting, or leaving, have been white, although that has changed a bit in recent years.
Some of the other threads here, especially posts by woodwardboy and many of the responses to them, have this question churning again: What exactly are those who "stay and fight" fighting?
On one hand, there's a straightforward, innocent answer: They're fighting to keep neighborhoods safe, improve schools, services and a sense of community, and maybe fighting for jobs, opportunities and better political representation.
On the other hand, in the context of Detroit [[and other big cities), the subtext [[and it's not really that sub) is, they're fighting black people.
The phrase has a dual meaning, which is why I avoid applying it to myself.
Here's the larger problem, the one that keeps me awake at night: Despite all their intentions [[I'm not saying the intentions of all of them are good, but clearly some are), all their work, the ones who "stay and fight," black or white, are losing the battle. The history of Detroit over the last 50 years [[yes, there have been sucesses, and I witnessed some of them) does not bode well for any large-scale "victory" [[hard to say what that would even look like at this point).
I would appreciate fellow forumers' reflections on this topic, and specifically how they've used, not used, or reacted to hearing, the words "stay and fight."
For the record, I'm white and spent much of my teens and 20s in Detroit. My family owned a home there for 30 years. I did not "stay and fight." But I live barely a mile from the city in a border suburb and regularly take the bus downtown to work. Make of all that what you will.

[Jimaz]

Fight-or-flight response

What concentrates after all the fleeing is done? The fight.

Fighting itself is the enemy.

[malmarson]

Hm....mebbe rephrase your conjecture?

I've stayed in my 100 year old Poletown home because my brother has fought the fight to have a save neighborhood around his buisness. It ain't perfect, but the home is paid for: and, since I work downtown, I have a five minute commute on the freeway to my job.

Funny, I always though of this more as taking care of your neighborhood and keeping it safe. That's what we've done, my brother and I: that's what happened with the yes farm. And, maybe, it's less caring about helping out the city-even though the caretaking does-and more carving out your own little piece of home.

I am polish/german/god only knows what else-take that as you will.

PS-if this was hopeless, why then, last year, when my brother had part of his buisiness rezoned, the Detroit Zoning board applauded him for his care of our block?

[davewindsor]

"Stay and fight."
...
I would appreciate fellow forumers' reflections on this topic, and specifically how they've used, not used, or reacted to hearing, the words "stay and fight."

It sounds like the wrong choice of wording to one. Do you "stay and fight" or do you "stay and build". Do you fight for a sense of community and opportunities or do you build a sense of community and build opportunities. Fighting is a zero sum game where someone has to loose something for another to win something, which ultimately leads to more fighting and both loosing. Are you fighting for a larger share of the pie or are you building a larger pie without someone else having to loose something. How can you move forward when your outlook is that you have to keep fighting something instead of building something? Are you building Detroit or are you fighting Detroit? If you plan to stay, maybe you should be asking how you can build Detroit, a sense of community, new opportunities, etc. Just sayin'....

[Buy American]

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/news...-20101203-wpms

Listen to what this woman has to say...approx. 1:28 into the video. Thugs beware.

[Gannon]

We should NEVER let this dialogue decline into discussions of race...because that has NOTHING to do with the troubles.

Anyone who even hints that anyone's ancestry directs their choices today is the WORST of inciters.


Stay and fight/build has everything to do with a person's heart and soul leading their mind and body. That is why the Spirit of Detroit is an important thing to me...when we rally around the commonality of this ethereal but real thing, we can more easily see that we are Detroiters first and foremost. When we work together, I've seen MIRACLES happen here...there is NO other way to coach those words. Miracles when we work together. When we stay and fight/build.


I am bummed to learn that Joe is leaving Woodbridge, I'll have to hook up with them to find out if they are leaving the city or not. Having HIM as the lead interviewee on that news piece was poignant, since his situation is not dissimilar to the fellow who was shot.

I didn't know his wife was the victim of a carjacking, either. That makes two amazing young women that I know in Woodbridge victims of serious crime in the past year. That is two too many for me.


I don't know...this is a conundrum which will not easily be solved in a down economy with tight resources...and serious issues with the latest generations' veneration of violence in movies and music and video games and the like.

From what I've experienced, MOST people want better. Some just have to learn that they are not alone and cannot simply take what they want when they want it. When they get together with others of like mind, THEN the trouble really begins.


I cannot yet imagine a solution, but at the very least...STAYING to be part of the solution is the first step. I know I'm going to get grief from some of my closest admirers for living in GPP, but frankly I'm learning a bit about how good policing keeps a neighborhood safe.

I won't go as far as to say GPP is the ideal neighborhood, because it is as insular from door-to-door as any suburban town...in that regard, I see Detroit as far superior. From those I know in any/every neighborhood in the city, they talk with their neighbors often...and the neighborhoods DO things together. They have to...that is the BEST part of staying and fighting/building!


Cheers anyways, getting on with my day...

[Ravine]

I'm not inciting anything.
However, I believe that race has plenty to do with Detroit's problems, and I don't see any point in avoiding that subject when discussing those problems.

[Gannon]

So you think those within a particular race can only behave a certain way?

What GOOD do you think can possibly come out of any discussion including the easiest divisor and most inflammatory topic...which seems unrecoverable once breached, since EVERYONE has their personal assumptions and most can only understand from their perspective?!

What good can come from race being any part of any discussion EVER?!


I am curious here, don't take my language as indictment or judgment. Of course, I have my opinions on the matter, too.

Cheers

[Ravine]

"So you think those within a particular race can only behave a certain way?"

That is your inference, apparently. I have no comment on that, since nothing I wrote has any relationship to that question.

"What good can come from race being any part of any discussion EVER?!"

The amount of good, or harm, coming from such a discussion depends on the quality of the discussion.
Discussions which feature openness & honesty but do not sink into malice & hostility are worth plenty.
Dancing around, or denying, Detroit's race issue is silly. It's there. It has a pervasive effect on much of the city's ills.
A fruitful discussion, of that topic, on DY is unlikely, however, due to the abundance of the aforementioned malice & hostility [[from all sides) and the heavy-handed censorship.

[English]

I'm not inciting anything.
However, I believe that race has plenty to do with Detroit's problems, and I don't see any point in avoiding that subject when discussing those problems.

I agree. However, I also believe that we use race in Detroit and in the United States as a stand-in for the unspeakable third rail in our society. As more people of color reach the middle and upper classes, and choose not to identify with their ethnic groups, and as more white people fall into the underclass, we will indeed have to touch that rail whether we like it or not.

As long as we pretend all the white people are rich and privileged racists, and all the black people are poor and dumb criminals, and there are no other kinds of people in the country other than those two categories, we will continue living in a fantasyland, and our city, state, and nation will continue to crumble around us.

[skyl4rk]

The fight is not one race against another race, it is the people who are willing to live together in peace versus the criminals and the racists.

[Gannon]

"So you think those within a particular race can only behave a certain way?"

That is your inference, apparently. I have no comment on that, since nothing I wrote has any relationship to that question.

"What good can come from race being any part of any discussion EVER?!"

The amount of good, or harm, coming from such a discussion depends on the quality of the discussion.
Discussions which feature openness & honesty but do not sink into malice & hostility are worth plenty.
Dancing around, or denying, Detroit's race issue is silly. It's there. It has a pervasive effect on much of the city's ills.
A fruitful discussion, of that topic, on DY is unlikely, however, due to the abundance of the aforementioned malice & hostility [[from all sides) and the heavy-handed censorship.

I was merely reaching for an understanding WHY you think this aspect needs to be brought forth. I agree with English's take on the matter, as I understand it.

As long as the discussion is framed by the overall goal to have the assumptions of racism eliminated, and pigmentation & ancestry left to the wayside on the path to resolution and enlightenment...then perhaps I can acquiesce a bit on including and entertaining discussions of race within any conversation.


I just see how nearly EVERY time it is brought up, especially devoid of each individual's ability to completely voice their history leading to their assumptions [[and ALL others ability to grasp such, if not sympathize or even empathize), it completely annihilates any progress...or even POSSIBILITY of progress...from the task at hand.


So to me it is only a deterrent to progress. As an emotion-dry Asperger's, it is easy for me to simply discard these emotional distractions. It is tough for me to get why it is not as easy for others to do so.

If it doesn't make for a positive outcome...it is eliminated from the equation in my mind. Even moreso if it is an active hindrance to a true solution.


I think discussion of race is played out, either we agree we are all human and must work together to have a functional society...or we are doomed to suffer the same silly-ass consternation and worse we've been divided by for generations. I'm pretty sick of that.


Cheers, thanks for the reply. Sorry you had to wimp out on the first question, though...because that is tantamount to the solution. Either we consider that race dictates behavior or not. If not, then we look deeper and far beyond it, and make it a mere enhancement to our bigger troubles.

I do not think that race can dictate anyone's behavior, excepting ONLY the reaction from others filled with poor generalized assumptions when THEY see the appearance of others. Those are the ones we call racists.


There is an incorrect definition going around, that those not in power cannot possibly BE racist. Whether you are racist or not is independent of whether yours is in power at the time. If that is not true [[and some insist that is the case), then those who enjoy holding the reigns of power within the city of Detroit are now well within the ability to be described as such. Especially anyone on City Council who insists that they learn who 'looks like them' in any project they approve.


I have spent too much time on this computer today. As much as it is my comfort zone, I must escape its great gravity and get on with my day. I've been begging off for hours now! LOL.

Cheers

[Gannon]

The fight is not one race against another race, it is the people who are willing to live together in peace versus the criminals and the racists.

Cheers!

I wish I could be as succinct.

[Augustiner]

I think discussion of race is played out, either we agree we are all human and must work together to have a functional society...or we are doomed to suffer the same silly-ass consternation and worse we've been divided by for generations. I'm pretty sick of that.

We are all human, and we should work together to have a functional society, but that often turns into a convenient curtain for racists to scamper behind. "Me, racist? Why are you still playing that old race card?" If we can't talk about racism, we'll never make any progress in reducing its prevalence or effects. If anything, we'll backslide. Maybe we already are.

Cheers, thanks for the reply. Sorry you had to wimp out on the first question, though...because that is tantamount to the solution. Either we consider that race dictates behavior or not. If not, then we look deeper and far beyond it, and make it a mere enhancement to our bigger troubles.

I do not think that race can dictate anyone's behavior, excepting ONLY the reaction from others filled with poor generalized assumptions when THEY see the appearance of others. Those are the ones we call racists.

Of course skin pigmentation doesn't dictate behavior, that's absurd. Race is a social construct, not a scientific or biological one. What race does dictate is your place in society, the options available to you, how you're treated, etc.

There is an incorrect definition going around, that those not in power cannot possibly BE racist.

That's not exactly a definition in itself, that's one specific conclusion that is drawn from a particular definition. As far as I can tell, and I don't claim to understand it perfectly, the popular parlance defines "racism" and "prejudice" as equivalent terms, whereas sociologists define "racism" as systemic and "prejudice" as individual. Obviously, if your race doesn't control the system, you can't use the system to create advantages for your race, no matter how much personal prejudice you may have. Maybe the social scientists could have come up with a less emotionally-charged word to describe that concept, but I think the distinction is a useful one to make.

Whether you are racist or not is independent of whether yours is in power at the time. If that is not true [[and some insist that is the case), then those who enjoy holding the reigns of power within the city of Detroit are now well within the ability to be described as such. Especially anyone on City Council who insists that they learn who 'looks like them' in any project they approve.

The city of Detroit really doesn't have a whole lot of power. Look at it in the context of the overall society. It's an impoverished, Third World laughingstock that's continually handed the responsibility for problems that mostly aren't of its own making and that it doesn't have the resources to address. In the region and the state, it's politically isolated. Politicians in the rest of Michigan run on "none of YOUR tax dollars going to THEM in Detroit." If you want to talk systemic oppression, look at the larger picture.

[Gannon]

Thanks for a great reply.

If a boss with only two employees judges them based on their skin color, they are racist or prejudiced. I DO like the semantic distinction with those terms, and feel the social scientists are correct parsing the two.

So, if the government of the City of Detroit acts in an institutional form against any others due their race and heritage...they are most certainly racist. THAT is what I've perceived over the last ten years worth of observation.

It doesn't matter that they are lesser than the Federal Government or any other group, it is enough that merely ONE individual with power over anyone else can utter such a thing.

I heard it again during the City Charter discussions a month ago, when a young black woman spoke against Council-by-District...insisting it was merely a way for those on the SW or NW side to have people who 'look like them' on the council. I was aghast at her statement, but know it is echoed in many who hold the reigns of power in this city today.



Finally, if you consider anyone who wishes to dismiss race as a POTENTIAL RACIST, then there is likely no positive outcome to this discussion...as this logic paints anyone with a truly universal welcoming psyche into the same corner as the lousy person who actually WOULD act that way.


So which is better...discuss our problems with regards to our common citizenry [[or desire to re-attain such)...or let the devastating divisiveness of the common weak handling of this inflammatory topic continue to keep us distracted?


Funny thing, I am reminded of the very first communication I ever engaged in on this forum...when Zulu Warrior made the announcement that ignoring race made one the worst of racists...or something very similar.

I fought him then, and am doing so again now. I am one of the least racist people I know, and actively seek to not have that be any portion of my existence. I disassociate from anyone I know who is truly racist...and won't even entertain the idea of remaining close with them until they learn and grow some.


Cheers

[Augustiner]

Finally, if you consider anyone who wishes to dismiss race as a POTENTIAL RACIST, then there is likely no positive outcome to this discussion...as this logic paints anyone with a truly universal welcoming psyche into the same corner as the lousy person who actually WOULD act that way.


So which is better...discuss our problems with regards to our common citizenry [[or desire to re-attain such)...or let the devastating divisiveness of the common weak handling of this inflammatory topic continue to keep us distracted?

Let me put it this way. Almost any way you care to parse the numbers, white people do better than anyone else. Control for social class, control for education level, control for parents' education level, none of it matters. If you compare apples to apples, white people always come out on top, by most any measure of success you care to define. So, why is this?

Consider the proposition that our society is a pure meritocracy. Race makes no difference at all, and should be disregarded as a predictor of success. Now look at the numbers. Whatever does predict success [[people who believe society is a pure meritocracy usually throw out things like "working hard" and "making responsible decisions") must, then, correlate very strongly with race, or the numbers would look very different than they do. Now you're getting into the territory of "those people just need to work harder," and "I did it, why can't they?"

I'm not saying that you, personally, believe either of those things, and I'm certainly not calling you a racist. I don't know anything about you except that you post on DetroitYes under the handle "Gannon." All I'm saying is, if you accept the notion that race doesn't matter in our society, you make it a lot easier for those arguments to flourish and grow and gain traction, and that's how racism [[the systemic kind) perpetuates itself in 21st century America.

[Gannon]

Thank you for the thoughtful post.


I never said race hasn't mattered in the past, nor that it doesn't now.


I said the only way we can proceed to a positive outcome...a true solution...is for us to agree to be together as one group of humans, or in this instance DETROITERS, and not even notice how any of us appears when we meet. We cannot let this divisive item to even BE a factor.

Because, as far as I can see, that is the ONLY way we will ever transcend this awful legacy. We cannot undo the things from the past, we can ONLY insure they will never happen again.

We can only truly affect that which we directly touch, so if and when we meet we allow racism to divide us...then we have already lost...even before we think we've begun.


This is a huge issue for me. I DO see how my more-interestingly melanomined friends encounter people and circumstances that oppress and offend them...and I also see how those of lesser color get treated by officials in this city. Worse when they are from out-of-town, and only wish to come into the city to help develop some dilapidation they see as opportunity.

We as a people need to agree to never let race be a determinate factor in any of the dealings we have control over...that is the least we can do. Either we work together regardless of our external appearance, or we will be conquered by those who enjoy exploiting the current situation.


Cheers and more!

[Ravine]

Gannon wrote, "Sorry you had to wimp out on the first question..."

You have a lot of goddam nerve, buckaroo. I didn't "wimp out" on anything. You asked a question which had nothing to do with the point I made. I rebuffed it because of its irrelevance to my comments.

You are a long, long way from being capable of posing any question which would cause me to "wimp out."

[Vox]

This is a huge issue for me. I DO see how my more-interestingly melanomined friends encounter people and circumstances that oppress and offend them...and I also see how those of lesser color get treated by officials in this city.

Interesting choice of words, Gannon. Lesser and more interesting?

[Gannon]

Gannon wrote, "Sorry you had to wimp out on the first question..."

You have a lot of goddam nerve, buckaroo. I didn't "wimp out" on anything. You asked a question which had nothing to do with the point I made. I rebuffed it because of its irrelevance to my comments.

You are a long, long way from being capable of posing any question which would cause me to "wimp out."

Oh, but you've now done it TWICE, so you're right...it looks like I need to find a larger, more encompassing term for your avoidance of the simple question.


LOL, seems I'm NOT that far away after all.

[Gannon]

Interesting choice of words, Gannon. Lesser and more interesting?

Most certainly, Vox.

The average Caucasian skin tone, long assumed by the Crayola crayon makers as the ONLY color of 'flesh', is not very exciting when you encounter a roomful of it...as opposed to, say, a WELL-DIVERSIFIED group displaying the entire range of the world's skin tones.

Whenever I am in a group or area, and everyone looks mostly like me...my strongest desire is to flee.

I do not detest my heritage, but rather embrace other's as well...because they are very fascinating to me. I may be suffering simple 'greener grass' syndrome, regardless...when any monoculture assembles, there are usually poor outcomes. I don't care if it is with humans or agriculture...nature behaves similarly.

Diversification allows the adaptation necessary to enjoy life within the confines of one's limited control over the harshness of our Earthly host.


Cheers and more!

[Schoolcraft]

Whenever I am in a group or area, and everyone looks mostly like me...my strongest desire is to flee.

I'd think most folk have the complete opposite opinion.

... and yes, race should CERTAINLY be a part of the discussion. Ignoring it ignores the real problems here in Detroit. I'd say it's most of the issue with the way things are here.

[Gannon]

I think most folks have a huge problem, then!

I know it is merely human nature to feel more comfortable around those who look like the fool in your mirror...but if you only surround yourself with like-minded individuals, your mind gets no exercise...and atrophies.

Same with one's heart and soul, too.



I think that BECAUSE race has been such a divider, that is exactly why we need to ignore it in our conversation, as we plan a civilization and society beyond this horribly ignorant topic.

That is the ONLY logical way I can see us growing together, indeed the neighborhoods and groups where race has CEASED to be an issue are the only ones forging progress in our time, and will continue to do so.


Anyone who only goes skin deep on any trouble is too shallow to be part of any successful transcendence of it.


Cheers!

[Schoolcraft]

Yes it is human nature that's why there's nothing wrong with it.

Hey, I hear you about race being a divider, but that's the way things have always been in America... that's not going to change overnight. Ignoring it and hoping it will go away [[especially here in Detroit) is not the way to go friend. Race has to be discussed in order for that divider to go away.

[jcole]

You just contradicted yourself here.

Whenever I am in a group or area, and everyone looks mostly like me...my strongest desire is to flee.

And

Anyone who only goes skin deep on any trouble is too shallow to be part of any successful transcendence of it.

If you check to see if people look like you and then desire to flee then aren't you only 'going skin deep' and thereby become the shallow one?