An Audience Opinion on the Development of Mass Transit

[rbdetsport]

Currently, I am a civil engineering student at Michigan State University. I have grown up in and around Detroit so I hold the city close to my heart. In a professional writing course I am in right now, I am doing research in to the issues surrounding mass transit in Metro Detroit and Southeast Michigan.

If all of you could please present your views on the issues around it, it would be greatly appreciated. Personally, I believe that mass transit will save Detroit and allow the land use projects to kick in to high gear. The issue I see is extending the transit options in to the suburbs in the correct way. We as a city need to do this right before we have another people mover on our hands.

Give me your opinions. You will be helping my research so much and allow me to analyze opinions surrounding the issues and eventually be able to present this to a larger body.

[NorthofNormal]

You nailed my biggest concern: another people mover. Mass Transit could go a long way towards helping the city turn around. My concern is that, under the current plan, it wont. The point of transit needs to be getting people from where they currently are [[the suburbs, by and large) and into the entertainment and employment destinations in the city. One line that runs from 8 Mile to Hart Plaza, up and down Woodward, is less than useless.

I still haven't seen support for something that's region-wide and actually useful, so I don't have a lot of hope for transit in Metro Detroit.

[ordinary]

I also am not hopeful about Mass Transit in the city and surrounding suburbs. I live in St. Clair Shores and work in Melvindale. My commute is torture.
I just can't see how any type of light rail or bus is going to cover all the various trips that people have to make in the Metropolitan Detroit area.

[ghettopalmetto]

I just can't see how any type of light rail or bus is going to cover all the various trips that people have to make in the Metropolitan Detroit area.

This is what I don't understand. People say that "There's no way transit could ever accommodate all the ridiculous trips I CHOOSE to make." Fucking move if you don't like your commute.

[Augustiner]

You nailed my biggest concern: another people mover. Mass Transit could go a long way towards helping the city turn around. My concern is that, under the current plan, it wont. The point of transit needs to be getting people from where they currently are [[the suburbs, by and large) and into the entertainment and employment destinations in the city. One line that runs from 8 Mile to Hart Plaza, up and down Woodward, is less than useless.

I still haven't seen support for something that's region-wide and actually useful, so I don't have a lot of hope for transit in Metro Detroit.

Well, the thing about transit is it doesn't have to move all the people all the time to be effective. There are plenty of people who live along the Woodward corridor between 8 Mile and downtown [[I don't know what you mean by "by and large," but believe it or not, there are people who actually live in Detroit) who will use this line. Transit works best in urban areas; the really sprawled-out and car-oriented parts of the metro will probably never have much transit to speak of, and the people who choose to live in those places will always be people for whom transit access is not a priority.

The other thing about transit is that, given limited funds, you have to build it in phases. Of course, this only works if you start pursuing the second phase once you've got the first phase in place, which was kind of the People Mover's problem, but there's a big difference between a line connecting downtown to 8/Woodward along what has always been the most highly-developed and well-utilized transit corridor in the city and a little downtown loop connecting a bunch of destinations that are within easy walking distance of each other anyway. Woodward rail to 8 Mile is a significant improvement over what we have now, and rail on Gratiot or Grand River or Jefferson would be a significant improvement over that, as would rail extensions to Pontiac or Farmington or Mt. Clemens. It just can't all happen at once, and we have to start somewhere.

[NorthofNormal]

I'm very aware that people "live along the Woodward corridor between 8 Mile and downtown"--I'm one of them. Yeah, they will use that line. They [[we) already use the existing bus lines.

My point was that the current plan only calls for building out from Hart Plaza to Grand Boulevard at the moment, and won't hit 8 Mile until 2016. There's no current plan for expanding it into Oakland County. There's no plan for anything on Gratiot, Grand River, Jefferson, or extending into Downriver at all. Right now there is no region-wide plan.

[lincoln8740]

As usual, in this wonderful city, we do everything ass-backwards. Build mass transit where there are no people versus building it where there are people. If it HAS to be built [[I am not in favor of spending one taxpayer dime on it) it should start in the suburbs first and end at the city line.

The current plan really is a choo choo train to nowhere and will probably end up just like the people mover--a joke.

[Hypestyles]

mass transit & high speed rail development need to happen, sooner than later.. As Air travel has gradually become an outlet for mainly the affluent [[and for those whose employers foot the bill), and as security measures for the forseeable future become more provocative, there needs to be a comprehensive look at rail which has been drastically overlooked from the mid-20th century to now..
also visit http://www.detroittransit.org/ if you haven't already..

[iheartthed]

It might help if you were a bit more specific about the conversation you would like to generate. Are you referring to a rail based transit system to save Detroit? Are you looking for opinions on how a system should be implemented? Or a debate on the merits of mass transit at all?

I think you're seeking opinions on a rail based transit system that is focused predominantly on the city, so that is how I will respond. Personally, I think it is extremely important to the long term vitality of Metro Detroit. I also I think too much compromising to get the suburbs on board will kill any hope of jump starting such a system in the near future. Make the effort to incorporate the communities who would like to be part of the system, like Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, and then focus on the city.

Furthermore, even getting the willing participants on board would require some managing of those cities own expectations. Frankly, I think Hart Plaza to Birmingham is too far for an at grade light rail line. At the worst you would have to grade separate for the system to be effective. More preferable, I think, would be that the farther flung communities like B'ham, RO should be serviced by a commuter rail system complimentary to the city's system, that would tie into the city's rail line at a hub point closer to downtown or midtown.

[DorianWrites]

Some good perspectives advanced here, so far...the importance of developing transit where it's NEEDED cannot be understated. Light rail to/from the northern suburbs [[up/down Woodward) seems to be an area of concentration...because it's easier. Woodward is there, a main artery already in existence. Of course, there are Gratiot, Grand River, and Michigan Ave. as well. Frankly, I'd like to see SMART consider service on Groesbeck Highway; difficult, perhaps, but with the numerous manufacturing plants and other employer locations on Groesbeck, it might actually be feasible to consider. I can remember walking the half-mile from the SMART stop on 12 Mile Rd. to my place of employment--in ALL kinds of weather--and wishing the bus went down Groesbeck.

Don't just consider professional occupations when planning mass transit [[into downtown Detroit from the suburbs, airport to downtown, airport to suburbs)--try to consider the entirety of workers...especially those who may not be able to afford a car, and are reliant on mass transit to reach their livelihoods.

[ghettopalmetto]

My point was that the current plan only calls for building out from Hart Plaza to Grand Boulevard at the moment, and won't hit 8 Mile until 2016. There's no current plan for expanding it into Oakland County. There's no plan for anything on Gratiot, Grand River, Jefferson, or extending into Downriver at all. Right now there is no region-wide plan.

Bullshit. http://www.semcog.org/uploadedFiles/...%2021%2008.pdf

[ordinary]

Ghetto Palmetto,
It's not that easy for me to just move. I worked in Detroit for years and the company I worked for closed down the facility and moved us out to Melvindale. I've been working for this company for more than 20 years and I am not able to get another job that pays as well with the skills that I have. I would love to be able to ride my bicycle to work or take some sort of mass transit but that's just not practical for me.
It just seems to me that we have the streets, highways, and expressways here that are in pretty decent shape and some type of mass transit that would utilize what is already in place would make more sense.

[rbdetsport]

I am mostly trying to focus on the debate of the merits of mass transit. I am also looking for implementation opinions, facts, etc. I am well aware of the plans that are out for the future of our transit, but my research is being done to show how normal metro detroiters react to the plans, react to the need for transit, and whether or not they would use it. I want to see the arguments, being, if you support it, why or why not for the area, and what you think the future holds in store.

Thank you for all of your responses so far! Keep it coming. Taking every little bit in.

[Augustiner]

I'm very aware that people "live along the Woodward corridor between 8 Mile and downtown"--I'm one of them. Yeah, they will use that line. They [[we) already use the existing bus lines.

Think of this as a service upgrade. Rail is a better way of serving that corridor than buses are. Better service means that some percentage of people who live in that corridor and currently use a car for most trips would likely start to switch to transit. That's how you build up a system.

My point was that the current plan only calls for building out from Hart Plaza to Grand Boulevard at the moment, and won't hit 8 Mile until 2016. There's no current plan for expanding it into Oakland County.

No, but they're working on one. Could it be moving faster? Sure. But we're a lot closer to getting improved transit here than we have been in my lifetime, and I'm not writing it off yet.

There's no plan for anything on Gratiot, Grand River, Jefferson, or extending into Downriver at all. Right now there is no region-wide plan.

Well, there's the RTCC plan. I agree that there needs to be more regional cooperation in the long term, but I don't think it should be a precondition for starting to improve the existing system.

[Augustiner]

I am mostly trying to focus on the debate of the merits of mass transit. I am also looking for implementation opinions, facts, etc. I am well aware of the plans that are out for the future of our transit, but my research is being done to show how normal metro detroiters react to the plans, react to the need for transit, and whether or not they would use it. I want to see the arguments, being, if you support it, why or why not for the area, and what you think the future holds in store.

Thank you for all of your responses so far! Keep it coming. Taking every little bit in.

It sounds like your purposes might be better served by a more structured, controlled public opinion survey, with some kind of sampling mechanism that ensures that you're surveying a representative cross-section of "normal metro Detroiters," and specific survey questions that force people to tell you exactly what you want to know. On here, you have no guarantee that individual posters are either "normal" or from metro Detroit, and in any case the people who post here aren't necessarily representative of the region as a whole. Also, as you've just discovered, keeping us on topic is kind of a lost cause.

Obviously, I don't have all the information about what you're trying to do here, so if I'm wrong and the opinions of random blowhards on the Internet are exactly what you're looking for, by all means carry on. I'm just saying.

[rbdetsport]

It sounds like your purposes might be better served by a more structured, controlled public opinion survey, with some kind of sampling mechanism that ensures that you're surveying a representative cross-section of "normal metro Detroiters," and specific survey questions that force people to tell you exactly what you want to know. On here, you have no guarantee that individual posters are either "normal" or from metro Detroit, and in any case the people who post here aren't necessarily representative of the region as a whole. Also, as you've just discovered, keeping us on topic is kind of a lost cause.

Obviously, I don't have all the information about what you're trying to do here, so if I'm wrong and the opinions of random blowhards on the Internet are exactly what you're looking for, by all means carry on. I'm just saying.

No I am getting what I need here. It does not need to be formal. I did not mean to discriminate by "normal metro detroiters." This is just the place I know I will get the most for what I need where most people are from the Detroit-area. I never planned to keep it on topic. Want to see it evolve.

[jjw]

Metro Detroit is kind of like a Catch-22. On one hand, effective mass transit should allow for more in-fill and a greater ability to face the future's needs. On the other hand, who would use it and where would it go? Other cities and metro areas are more equipped and ready to get the few mass transit dollars that will become available in the next few years.

Ultimately, I think it is essential for the metro area to have automobile-altermative transportation but not sure it is a priority among the populace.

[NorthofNormal]

I'm not anti-transit at all. I'm very in favor of region-wide transportation options, and I'd much prefer rail to buses. I understand that something like that needs to be incremental, but I already see the arguments that could doom this whole thing--the random jackwagons on this board who refer to it as the "magic choochoo train," for example. If it isn't seen from the get-go as something that can be a benefit to suburbanites, they are going to use the argument that it's not useful to avoid having to support [[read: pay for) it.

The RTCC plan sure looks nifty, but it also says that, during the short term [[2009-2012), "intensive planning effors must be underway for the services expected to be implemented in the 2013-2015 time period." Those 2013-2016 services include expanding the Woodward light rail to 11 Mile. Convening a study task force at this late a date isn't really "intensive planning."

I'm not entirely pessimistic about the effort, but I do have some fears.

[Augustiner]

If it isn't seen from the get-go as something that can be a benefit to suburbanites, they are going to use the argument that it's not useful to avoid having to support [[read: pay for) it.

They'll use that argument no matter where it goes. They'll say "sure it's going right past my front door, but I hate trains and will never ride a train so why should I have to pay for it?" The difference is that, if it's built by DDOT and doesn't leave the city limits, it doesn't really matter what people in the suburbs think about it.

I think it'll be easier to solicit suburban support once there's something in place and its effects are more tangible. Right now, it's easy to say "nobody will ride it" and awfully hard to disprove it.

[NorthofNormal]

But if it's build by DDOT and doesn't leave city limits...it's not a regional mass transit plan.

[Augustiner]

But if it's build by DDOT and doesn't leave city limits...it's not a regional mass transit plan.

I am aware of this.

[gdogslim]

I love mass transit trains I have taken in differnet cities.
Problem is the cost and the inflexibility of it.

What government services would you cut to pay for it.

[Augustiner]

What government services would you cut to pay for it.

Road widening, paving of roads that are currently dirt, repaving of roads that should be allowed to revert to dirt, repaving of the unnecessary parts of overly-wide roads...

[iheartthed]

I love mass transit trains I have taken in differnet cities.
Problem is the cost and the inflexibility of it.

What government services would you cut to pay for it.

Road expansions?

[Hermod]

Road widening, paving of roads that are currently dirt, repaving of roads that should be allowed to revert to dirt, repaving of the unnecessary parts of overly-wide roads...

How much of that is DDOT spending money on now?