The Detroit Symphony strike is getting international attention

**texorama** · November-21-10, 08:48 AM

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...chestra-strike

What I haven't seen, either locally or beyond, is an analysis of whether either the players' or the management's proposal would lead to a sustainable funding model given reasonable assumptions about the future, including a modest recovery of the auto industry.

lilpup · November-21-10, 08:57 AM

'sustainable funding' and 'the arts' are an extremely rare combination in the US

**oldredfordette** · November-21-10, 09:14 AM

The musicians deserve it. What is going on at Max Fisher is not bargaining, but union busting. The musicians union has no offer that will be accepted but total capitulation by their management [[whose salary, if slashed in a similar manner, would make up a great deal of the deficeit). Solidarity with the Musicians of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra!

**Patrick** · November-21-10, 10:45 AM

Read the great discussions on that Guardian article...lots of locals posting thoughts

**Patrick** · November-21-10, 11:14 AM

"It's not about money in our pockets"

Bullshit. I dont believe that at all.

**oldredfordette** · November-21-10, 12:17 PM

Then why did they come so close to the company's demands? It doesn't make sense to put forth a proposal, wait till it was nearly met, the raise it. Unless you're busting the union.

**kryptonite** · November-22-10, 12:22 PM

With the local economy in the state it's in, I doubt that a substantial number of people would care if the symphony union was decertified or even if the symphony closed. Those of us who contribute to charitable organizations are forced to make tough decisions in the current recession. Many people cannot make the donations that they once were able to and if the DSO musicians can't fathom that reality then maybe a non-union symphony or no symphony is the ultimate solution.

**bailey** · November-22-10, 12:36 PM

But the players say that it is precisely because Detroit is hurting so badly that the excellence of the orchestra must be preserved. After all, what other hope has Detroit got? "It's not can we exist in this wasteland?" McKay said. "It's what happens to this wasteland without us?"

wow. nice ego. I'm sorry, but your cello [[as delightfully played as I'm sure you play it) is not all that stands between Detroit and the abyss.

**Meddle** · November-22-10, 12:43 PM

I doubt that a substantial number of people would care if the symphony union was decertified or even if the symphony closed.

How many residents even know Detroit has a symphony let alone have ever been to see a performance?

DetroitPole · November-22-10, 01:20 PM

Rightfully so this should attract international attention. I believe this is one of Detroit's most intractable and interesting problems.

Sure that guy made a ballsy quote but even though he probably shouldn't have said it, I agree with it. Metro Detroit SUCKS. There are no jobs. There is no transit. The city is an unchanging hell of violence and despair. The suburbs are vapid and mind-numbing. Want proof? Look at all the people voting with their feet. I have to say one of the only things I am truly, consistently beaming with pride about in this region is the cultural scene. We are truly fortunate to have it - and really, without it, what else is there? The Woodward Dream Cruise? The Gibralter Fair? The beautiful neighborhoods of Macomb Township and Delray?

I do realize there are some other redeeming qualities to Metro Detroit [[well, there's Belle Isle, and plenty of bars), but I'm trying to illustrate the point that we don't have a lot going for that is outstanding, except for our cultural scene. The cocky musician has a point. We need to restructure it, but ever so carefully. Even if you don't go to the symphony, you have to realize that many creative/inventive/wealthy people who might want to move[[or stay in) to this region will.

**bailey** · November-22-10, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Rightfully so this should attract international attention. I believe this is one of Detroit's most intractable and interesting problems.

Sure that guy made a ballsy quote but even though he probably shouldn't have said it, I agree with it. Metro Detroit SUCKS. There are no jobs. There is no transit. The city is an unchanging hell of violence and despair. The suburbs are vapid and mind-numbing. Want proof? Look at all the people voting with their feet. I have to say one of the only things I am truly, consistently beaming with pride about in this region is the cultural scene. We are truly fortunate to have it - and really, without it, what else is there? The Woodward Dream Cruise? The Gibralter Fair? The beautiful neighborhoods of Macomb Township and Delray?

I do realize there are some other redeeming qualities to Metro Detroit [[well, there's Belle Isle, and plenty of bars), but I'm trying to illustrate the point that we don't have a lot going for that is outstanding, except for our cultural scene. The cocky musician has a point. We need to restructure it, but ever so carefully. Even if you don't go to the symphony, you have to realize that many creative/inventive/wealthy people who might want to move[[or stay in) to this region will.

If people cared about the DSO, there would be some support for the strike. It barely registers. It's the proverbial tree in the woods. It fell at the beginning of October. and clearly, except to a very small subset of the local populace, it didn't make a sound.

**kryptonite** · November-22-10, 01:53 PM

Residents of Michigan have been hammered by job losses. Those who still have jobs have taken wage freezes and pay cuts. Charitable organizations are dealing with dwindling revenue. The average person staring at bleak economic realities I think has a tendency to view an orchestra as elitist and/or expendable. In a deep recession how many people sympathize with striking workers that make maybe $100,000/yr? [[a guess)

It is just a bad situation all the way. Nobody stands to win in this scenario. The DSO has to operate on a smaller budget, that is the reality. Like many of us who have been living with wage freezes for years now.

**Detroitnerd** · November-22-10, 02:05 PM

The rich get richer and the not-rich get austerity measures. The not-rich tell the other not-rich to tighten belts while the people at the top gobble it all up. Something here not make sense? Shhhh. Don't pay attention to the top earners who get tax breaks and government money ... it's the violinist's fault, so shoot the piano player.

DetroitPole · November-22-10, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

If people cared about the DSO, there would be some support for the strike. It barely registers. It's the proverbial tree in the woods. It fell at the beginning of October. and clearly, except to a very small subset of the local populace, it didn't make a sound.

The great people of America are fantastic at apathy, except when it involves reality television, movie stars with addiction problems, or football. If you tried to gauge the importance of issues and act accordingly based on public outcry, well, I'd hate to see what our priorities would look like.

Most people also don't care about the national power grid either, but it is still important. Hell, people don't even care about the wars since there isn't a draft anymore, but it is still something somebody needs to care about.

**1KielsonDrive** · November-22-10, 03:22 PM

The pigeons are coming home to roost. We are now right where the right-wing whackos have been pushing us for years and decades; The Abyss. Each of us fighting against our own and for our own. No one in solidarity because we're struggling to survive. Wars and huge budget deficits funding those wars have stripped our society of almost all meaning. America is a society and culture in great decline. No plans, no goals, no vision......no future? Strip yourself of all self respect and self improvement to win a battle and force your ideals on all others.

**oldredfordette** · November-22-10, 07:23 PM

Why are the benefit concerts put on by the musicians of the DSO selling out, every week? Why has every show the DSO management put on since the strike began taken a total dump? Why were there 200 people picketing last Monday night in front of Orchestra Hall? The strike is registering, just not to certain people on this forum.

Just dismantle everything that makes this region worth living in and replace it with full on greed.

**1KielsonDrive** · November-23-10, 01:34 AM

Originally Posted by oldredfordette

Why are the benefit concerts put on by the musicians of the DSO selling out, every week? Why has every show the DSO management put on since the strike began taken a total dump? Why were there 200 people picketing last Monday night in front of Orchestra Hall? The strike is registering, just not to certain people on this forum.

Just dismantle everything that makes this region worth living in and replace it with full on greed.

That's the plan.

**rjk** · November-23-10, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by oldredfordette

Why are the benefit concerts put on by the musicians of the DSO selling out, every week? Why has every show the DSO management put on since the strike began taken a total dump? Why were there 200 people picketing last Monday night in front of Orchestra Hall? The strike is registering, just not to certain people on this forum.

Just dismantle everything that makes this region worth living in and replace it with full on greed.

Yeah, that certainly signifies a tital wave of support for the musicians. How long before the citizens of this area surround the Max with pitchforks and clubs demanding that they can hear the DSO?

Day after day you can hear about upcoming cuts to goverment projects and private sector jobs. Just because someone is great at blowing into a flute doesn't mean that they're immune from what everyone else has had to face.

The comments by McKay are laughable. It's a good thing for the DSO that this strike is a tree falling in a forest with no one around type of story. Otherwise those comments would result in some pretty damaging PR.

**kryptonite** · November-23-10, 09:58 AM

It's not a conspiracy which is the way some of the posts make it sound. The money coming in is just not what it used to be. The state has eliminated nearly $4,000,000 in subsidies, that means everyone else has to take up the slack. Corporate and individual donations have to fill in the gap for the symphony to contine operating. Or ticket prices would have to skyrocket. It's not as if some entity has set about to eradicate the orchestra. There is just less money being donated. The MI economy is in the basement, people don't have the means to support the DSO to the level they have in the past.

**Detroitnerd** · November-23-10, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by rjk

Just because someone is great at blowing into a flute doesn't mean that they're immune from what everyone else has had to face.

Just because someone is great at selling worthless credit swaps and killing the economy while making a fortune doesn't mean that they're immune from what everyone else has had to face.

Just because someone is great at swindling us into two illegal, failed wars, with attacks on several other countries doesn't mean that they're immune from what everyone else has had to face.

Just because someone is great at buying the country's politicians so they never have to be regulated doesn't mean that they're immune from what everyone else has had to face.

**bailey** · November-23-10, 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Just because someone is great at selling worthless credit swaps and killing the economy while making a fortune doesn't mean that they're immune from what everyone else has had to face.

Just because someone is great at swindling us into two illegal, failed wars, with attacks on several other countries doesn't mean that they're immune from what everyone else has had to face.

Just because someone is great at buying the country's politicians so they never have to be regulated doesn't mean that they're immune from what everyone else has had to face.

So it's Wall St, Karl Rove and Bush's fault the DSO is on strike?

**Detroitnerd** · November-23-10, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

So it's Wall St, Karl Rove and Bush's fault the DSO is on strike?

No, bailey. I just think it's weird that the bottom 90 percent are all fighting to drag down those of us who earn a wee bit more, when we should probably gang up on the top half-percent who control 90 percent of the wealth. Not only do they earn way more than they need to, they do it criminally, that is to say, their talents -- unlike playing a flute, which brings delight to people -- are parasitic and destructive.

I do not begrudge any worker the right to bargain collectively, whether they're baseball players or garbage men.

**bailey** · November-23-10, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

No, bailey. I just think it's weird that the bottom 90 percent are all fighting to drag down those of us who earn a wee bit more, when we should probably gang up on the top half-percent who control 90 percent of the wealth. Not only do they earn way more than they need to, they do it criminally, that is to say, their talents -- unlike playing a flute, which brings delight to people -- are parasitic and destructive.

I do not begrudge any worker the right to bargain collectively, whether they're baseball players or garbage men.

Well, bound up in that right to bargain is some duty to recognize reality. The reality is Detroit, the state of Michigan, the local market can not support the wages the collective bargainers are demanding. Irrespective of the social commentary you're trying to insert into the debate, the market sets the wage.

**Detroitnerd** · November-23-10, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Well, bound up in that right to bargain is some duty to recognize reality. The reality is Detroit, the state of Michigan, the local market can not support the wages the collective bargainers are demanding. Irrespective of the social commentary you're trying to insert into the debate, the market sets the wage.

And the market itself is a game, the "forces" suspended on strings by the powerful. Irrespective of these "realities," people have a right to bargain collectively, and it sounds like the management is trying to bust the union.

**1KielsonDrive** · November-23-10, 03:17 PM

And the 'market' is 'free', I suppose? To even impose the market into this conversation is ridiculous. The 'market' is not only not 'free', it is controlled by the very forces that brought it down. The same one half of one per cent of the population that owns 99 per cent of the wealth, own the market. They, along with the politicians, control almost all of the levers to the market. This is about destroying any remaining semblance of power that working class people still may hold. That includes YOU.