St Louis versus Detroit

[bibs]

Having moved recently to Southern IL and having read many years worth of Detroityes threads, I saw the similarities between the cities in the two articles below. What surprised me is that St. Louis has restored more, built more but still lost about 500,000 people and it's wrestling with many of the same issues in spite of the billions spent on development.

It seems that speeding money on incubators like Next Energy in Detroit or small business development builds a city organically, adds value, leads to real estate development and big ticket projects don't' lured business downtown.

I believe "The Edifice Complex"article mentions that more money needs to be spent on building or luring high tech companies, banking, insurance etc. to St Louis. If all the metropolitian areas are trying to promote the same industries, I'm not sure that path will be successful either. These industries will just end benefiting from the tax incentives and work the program.

It looks like nuturing small businesses and cutting edge technologies that are unique is the best way to promote growth within a city. These people are probably more connected to the city and less like to pack up and leave. Enjoy

Jobs, wealth haven't followed building here http://www.stltoday.com/business/article_ceb6ed00-8bb0-5719-8c99-978b10b97669.html
The Edifice Complex: Why big real estate projects won't save St. Louis http://www.stltoday.com/business/columns/david-nicklaus/article_8ce8ea28-d95e-5c83-abd7-4ab19ce1ffdd.html

[claireianthelibrarian]

StL and Detroit have many parallels. They're neck-and-neck in certain measures of violent crime, vacancy rates, population loss, and baseball. Curiosity about Detroit-as-a-rusty-sister-city was what first brought me up here from St. Louis for a trip in 2008. I liked it a lot, and ended up moving here a year ago.

I'd say within the cities themselves, disregarding their metropolitan areas, St. Louis is much more segregated. City services, as well as private loans and insurance, are much more concentrated in certain areas, and as a result problems are much more geographically concentrated too. You all have Alter Road and 8 Mile, which are boundaries between different cities, but StL's version of Alter runs right down the middle of the city. If you are white, everyone will tell you not to go north of Delmar. I lived there for years, and people would actually not believe me when I told them where I lived. When one looks at maps of resource distribution, even if they lack a street grid, one can tell exactly where Delmar is.

In fairness, I have yet to spend more than an evening in Brightmoor and other such places here, and that limits my perspective on Detroit. In StL, I lived for years in a neighborhood that had borne the brunt of decades of failed wipe-out-the-black-slums projects. My St. Louis neighborhood before that one was in the icy grip of an alderman who'd recently gotten to eminent domain and bulldoze six blocks elsewhere in his ward and who was trying for a repeat where I lived, and so.... Suffice it to say, I didn't experience the city's best side. I have been more conservative in choosing a neighborhood here because I after all that I am worn out.

Both cities have that depopulated Rust Belt creative gumption. Low rent, low property values, and low barriers to entry can do a lot for a city's cultural life. In St. Louis, I was astonished at some of the cultural opportunities I got simply because I was reasonably skilled and willing to step up. I doubt I'd have gotten to curate a film series at a major museum before my 22nd birthday if I were in New York or Portland, but in St. Louis I did. Detroit strikes me as a place such things are true threefold, providing that you can make your business meet your living expenses or keep the city from abruptly bulldozing your folk art environment. It's a balancing act, I suppose. For the frustration of watching what happened to Theater Bizarre, I watched some of my favorite actively, publicly creative St. Louisans get run off by specific actions taken by the city's development-at-the-expense-of-all-else government. But still, there are great things going on in both cities.

I'd also say Detroit feels a little more international than St. Louis does. Immigration to the metropolitan area is more active here than it is in StL. I more frequently meet people who have had exposure to life and ideas outside of Detroit [[versus St. Louis).

On the flip side, population loss in St. Louis City has supposedly stemmed. Three-term Mayor Slay's administration's schtick is to challenge Census findings whenever they are released, insisting that St. Louis has more residents than they gave it credit for. Closer examination of the numbers reveals that the city has recently lost thousands of black residents, and most new residents are white, which is particularly noteworthy in a city that was recently just barely black majority. It is noteworthy also in light of the current administration's steadfast support for a Matty Moroun type developer who has spent the past six years eviscerating the predominantly black Near North Side, often using old fashioned 1950s blockbusting tactics to scare residents into selling their homes and businesses. The demographic profile and moreover the voting profile of the city are changing.

In fairness, I'm definitely in my honeymoon period with the D right now, and I also am taking a breather from closely following city politics. I am biased, but at least somebody's biased in favor of Detroit, right?

Regarding those articles specifically: Living in St. Louis, it can sometimes feel like the city government believes its sole purpose is to drive real estate development. StL politicians love big, flashy development by campaign donors, and simply put, the TIF is king.

Last year, they actually considered and approved a $390,000,000 TIF out of the city's ailing General Fund, with 50% of the bonds backed by the city, for an ill-defined large scale development project spanning several neighborhoods. The TIF included condemnation rights to literally thousands of properties, the owners of which had not been notified. It was approved in September 2009 in a hearing rife with glaring procedural violations of the TIF statute and then voided by a judge very recently. It's the most dramatic example, but if you've got the right connections in StL, damned if you'll have to pay to build your own grocery store. That's what city and state money are for!

Downtown St. Louis has fewer straight-up rotting abandoned buildings than it did five years ago, as Deputy Mayor of Development Barb Geisman notes in the first article, but that's only part of the story. The vacancy rate is still very high. There is a lot of finished, empty space. As someone who only began driving last year, in my experience it actually has become harder in recent years to take care of basic, practical needs Downtown than it used to be. The locksmith, the original grocery store, the yarn store, the place that had affordable shoes, the place where I got the best Bettie Page haircut of my life, the Walgreens, two lil' cheapie pizzerias, all those places are among those that have closed in the past couple of years. Often, they were kicked out by developers starting some flashy project that ultimately kinda crapped out, and years later the space has not had a single tenant since. Some new businesses have opened, but many have closed. And for all the vacancy, cheap residential rent Downtown is a thing of the past. Again, demographic profiles are changing, and it's worthwhile to ask who all this newness is benefitting and who is being driven out. Sure, things are shinier and less ragged overall, but it hasn't translated to that drastic a change in the quality of life.

If StL City Hall is going to continue prioritizing the support of business over basic quality of life issues, they really ought to consider subsidizing small businesses a lot more and big developers less [[if at all), as you said about Detroit. I'd particularly like to see some help for those who'd rent a first floor commercial space. More demand side, less supply side. Let's get those Downtown storefronts full of life, get a few people employed and resuscitate sidewalk life, before we create even more empty space. One of the more ethical developers Downtown has a history of giving local artists free rent in his unrented storefronts, and actual shops seem to take notice and move on in pretty quickly once that happens. And good lord, money for stadiums does not grow on trees, it grows on closed schools and missing sidewalks.

In the neighborhoods, StL has a rich, rich culture of DIY rehab. A huge percentage of the people I know have little projects, and people work together and share ideas and tools. It is an almost entirely brick city, and compared to Detroit the surviving building stock is older. Those buildings are purty, and they can take years of neglect while remaining viable. To the extent that the city has reversed its decline, it has done so largely as a result of individuals knitting neighborhoods back together building by building and block by block.

If I were mayor of St. Louis, I'd look for ways that the city could remove civic and fiscal roadblocks for small-time rehabbers and business owners. Just like Detroit, the reasons projects get stalled are insane. A friend consulted on a rehab of a building purchased from the city, and the whole project got stuck in a holding pattern for three months because they didn't have a line item in their budget for mini-blinds, and no one told them it was necessary for three months. A friend who bought her house from the city suddenly found herself with thousands of dollars worth of sewer problems because the city had not paid the $12 insurance on the sewer when it owned it the year prior. And to buy a building from the city, you have to gain the approval of the alderman, who are generally every bit as competent, open-minded, and mature as members of Detroit's City Council. Dealing with that culture and taking a bite out of loan and insurance redlining would do more for the city than any half-empty but very sparkly loft building Downtown ever would.

More than you asked for, but that's my two cents. There is a lot I don't know about Detroit, and I'd appreciate the perspectives of those of you who know what's up. Any of this sound familiar? Have you been to my hometown?

[Gistok]

Residents of Detroit and St. Louis do share one great building in common.... their Fox Theatres...

When C. Howard Crane got his commission to build a pair of "over the top" movie palaces for Detroit and St. Louis, he found that he could make them each more lavish if they reused the same designs. So the 1928 Detroit Fox was built into a 10 storey office tower, while the St. Louis Fox was in a standalone building... but they both are near twins in their design. The ornate plaster molds for the Detroit Fox were re-used a year later for the St. Louis Fox.

The major difference between the 2 was the treatment of a facade [[th St. Louis Fox has a large window, while the Detroit Fox has large plaster faux organ pipes [[behide which is several levels of office space).

Also, when they were restored, the St. Louis Fox today holds 4,500 seats... while the Detroit Fox has a maximum seating of 5,174. Also the 10 story office tower allows for a 10 story vertical marquee, while the lower St. Louis Fox entrance only has a 3 story vertical marquee. See it here....

[bibs]

I remember reading about how Detroit couldn't lure conventions because it didn't have enough hotel room. When I read this piece below about the Renaissance Grand Hotel, it only made me think of the Book Cadillac in Detroit as well as the other struggling hotels.
It made me think that there has been a paradigm shift in the economy and the new economy may not support the hotels and convention centers we have built. It may not support the city centers anymore. Period.

About three years ago, I start thinking that people with the skills are going to sell themselves to the highest bidder and move every couple of years just like the native American Indians. You aren't committed to the city, community or region. You rent a place and when your project is done or you get laid off again.....you tell the landlord your moving out and you pack your bags. I think more and more people will engage in this life style. People will be more mobile and flexible. Less attached and more detached.

St Louis Post Dispatch - Author Stephanie S. Cordle -
November 11, 2010- The Renaissance Grand Hotel complex on Washington Ave. in St. Louis. Turning two empty Washington Avenue hotels into an 1,100-room complex was supposed to cure what ailed St. Louis' convention business. But almost from the day it opened in 2002, the $270 million Renaissance Grand Hotel and Suites has struggled. In a downtown glutted with hotel rooms, and a city that still struggling to lure big meetings, the Renaissance has been unable to pay down its debt. Last year, it was taken over by its bondholders, who continue trying make the place work financially. Stephanie S. Cordle scordle@post-dispatch.com

[Hermod]

Detroit lacks a place like East St Louis for contrast [[and to soak up problems).

[rjk]

How does the park system in SL compare to Detroit?

[Danny]

St Louis, Miss. is a independent city with no county involvment and much smaller in square miles and population than Detroit. St. Louis does have very blighted ghettohoods and few abandon buildings mostly in the north side. The housing there was a full line of turn of the century victorian brick colonials mostly in north side and early boomtowm prarie style brick bungalows, colonials and ranches mostly in the south side. It's quite racially divided whites live mostly in the south side while blacks live in the north side. They have a vibrant Downtown with their buildings well preserved and utilized. The population is quickly growing. Over the past 10 years there are more white families moving into St. Louis while what's left of middle class blacks move out the northwestern suburbs. The poor blacks are still living the struggling the almost blighted north side ghettoes. There are some few Habitat/Fanny Mae/ Freedie Mac homes being built to offset the blight, but the housing bubble bust cost those homes to became vacant and abandoned. St Louis future will be decided on the people who live there. I been through St. Louis and it didn't look pretty back then.

[Left_For_Texas]

Detroit lacks a place like East St Louis for contrast [[and to soak up problems).

Doesn't Highland Park meet that challenge?

[hybridy]

i think having 3 national research universities in the city helps st louis some...

Washington University in St. Louis
Saint Louis University
University of Missouri–St. Louis

plus stl still has their ritz carlton...

[kraig]

Doesn't Highland Park meet that challenge?

No, Highland Park is surrounded by Detroit and pretty much deals with anything that Detroit is dealing with. East St. Louis on the other hand, while part of the St. Louis Metro area, is across the River and in another state [[Illinois).

Both cities have to find a way to invest in people at the same time they're investing in infrastructure and companies. Development of the creative talents of its people will go a very long way as far as attracting and retaining people.

[claireianthelibrarian]

"No, Highland Park is surrounded by Detroit and pretty much deals with anything that Detroit is dealing with. East St. Louis on the other hand, while part of the St. Louis Metro area, is across the River and in another state [[Illinois)."

Both Highland Park and East StL were developed by industrialists who didn't want to pay taxes or [[at least in the case of East StL) abide by nuisance laws in the area's main city. But yeah, that state line and that river help keep things separate physically, legally, financially, and psychologically. If you want to participate in light-to-medium vice in StL, particularly of the 6am club or the extra sketchy strip club variety, the saying is "I'm going to the East Side."

"How does the park system in SL compare to Detroit?"

I haven't spent a lot of time in the parks here yet, but I'd say the most obvious difference is that St. Louis still mows lawns and does pretty well on basic maintenance. There are some really nice parks. I grew up a block from Tower Grove Park, a large, hilly, gazebo-filled park from the 1860s.

StL's Forest Park is larger than NYC's Central Park, and it's wonderful. It's got the zoo [[which is free), the municipal opera [[which has free seats), the art museum [[which is free and a World's Fair relic), a skating rink, a golf course, lagoons where you can ride boats, half of the free Science Center, a small art deco conservatory, you name it. It fell into disrepair in decades past, but non-profit Forest Park Forever has brought it back. When I want to describe Belle Isle to people back home, I tell them it's like if Forest Park was its own island and the zoo was abandoned.

[canuck]

StL and Detroit have many parallels. They're neck-and-neck in certain measures of violent crime, vacancy rates, population loss, and baseball. Curiosity about Detroit-as-a-rusty-sister-city was what first brought me up here from St. Louis for a trip in 2008. I liked it a lot, and ended up moving here a year ago.

I'd say within the cities themselves, disregarding their metropolitan areas, St. Louis is much more segregated. City services, as well as private loans and insurance, are much more concentrated in certain areas, and as a result problems are much more geographically concentrated too. You all have Alter Road and 8 Mile, which are boundaries between different cities, but StL's version of Alter runs right down the middle of the city. If you are white, everyone will tell you not to go north of Delmar. I lived there for years, and people would actually not believe me when I told them where I lived. When one looks at maps of resource distribution, even if they lack a street grid, one can tell exactly where Delmar is.

In fairness, I have yet to spend more than an evening in Brightmoor and other such places here, and that limits my perspective on Detroit. In StL, I lived for years in a neighborhood that had borne the brunt of decades of failed wipe-out-the-black-slums projects. My St. Louis neighborhood before that one was in the icy grip of an alderman who'd recently gotten to eminent domain and bulldoze six blocks elsewhere in his ward and who was trying for a repeat where I lived, and so.... Suffice it to say, I didn't experience the city's best side. I have been more conservative in choosing a neighborhood here because I after all that I am worn out.

Both cities have that depopulated Rust Belt creative gumption. Low rent, low property values, and low barriers to entry can do a lot for a city's cultural life. In St. Louis, I was astonished at some of the cultural opportunities I got simply because I was reasonably skilled and willing to step up. I doubt I'd have gotten to curate a film series at a major museum before my 22nd birthday if I were in New York or Portland, but in St. Louis I did. Detroit strikes me as a place such things are true threefold, providing that you can make your business meet your living expenses or keep the city from abruptly bulldozing your folk art environment. It's a balancing act, I suppose. For the frustration of watching what happened to Theater Bizarre, I watched some of my favorite actively, publicly creative St. Louisans get run off by specific actions taken by the city's development-at-the-expense-of-all-else government. But still, there are great things going on in both cities.

I'd also say Detroit feels a little more international than St. Louis does. Immigration to the metropolitan area is more active here than it is in StL. I more frequently meet people who have had exposure to life and ideas outside of Detroit [[versus St. Louis).

On the flip side, population loss in St. Louis City has supposedly stemmed. Three-term Mayor Slay's administration's schtick is to challenge Census findings whenever they are released, insisting that St. Louis has more residents than they gave it credit for. Closer examination of the numbers reveals that the city has recently lost thousands of black residents, and most new residents are white, which is particularly noteworthy in a city that was recently just barely black majority. It is noteworthy also in light of the current administration's steadfast support for a Matty Moroun type developer who has spent the past six years eviscerating the predominantly black Near North Side, often using old fashioned 1950s blockbusting tactics to scare residents into selling their homes and businesses. The demographic profile and moreover the voting profile of the city are changing.

In fairness, I'm definitely in my honeymoon period with the D right now, and I also am taking a breather from closely following city politics. I am biased, but at least somebody's biased in favor of Detroit, right?

Regarding those articles specifically: Living in St. Louis, it can sometimes feel like the city government believes its sole purpose is to drive real estate development. StL politicians love big, flashy development by campaign donors, and simply put, the TIF is king.

Last year, they actually considered and approved a $390,000,000 TIF out of the city's ailing General Fund, with 50% of the bonds backed by the city, for an ill-defined large scale development project spanning several neighborhoods. The TIF included condemnation rights to literally thousands of properties, the owners of which had not been notified. It was approved in September 2009 in a hearing rife with glaring procedural violations of the TIF statute and then voided by a judge very recently. It's the most dramatic example, but if you've got the right connections in StL, damned if you'll have to pay to build your own grocery store. That's what city and state money are for!

Downtown St. Louis has fewer straight-up rotting abandoned buildings than it did five years ago, as Deputy Mayor of Development Barb Geisman notes in the first article, but that's only part of the story. The vacancy rate is still very high. There is a lot of finished, empty space. As someone who only began driving last year, in my experience it actually has become harder in recent years to take care of basic, practical needs Downtown than it used to be. The locksmith, the original grocery store, the yarn store, the place that had affordable shoes, the place where I got the best Bettie Page haircut of my life, the Walgreens, two lil' cheapie pizzerias, all those places are among those that have closed in the past couple of years. Often, they were kicked out by developers starting some flashy project that ultimately kinda crapped out, and years later the space has not had a single tenant since. Some new businesses have opened, but many have closed. And for all the vacancy, cheap residential rent Downtown is a thing of the past. Again, demographic profiles are changing, and it's worthwhile to ask who all this newness is benefitting and who is being driven out. Sure, things are shinier and less ragged overall, but it hasn't translated to that drastic a change in the quality of life.

If StL City Hall is going to continue prioritizing the support of business over basic quality of life issues, they really ought to consider subsidizing small businesses a lot more and big developers less [[if at all), as you said about Detroit. I'd particularly like to see some help for those who'd rent a first floor commercial space. More demand side, less supply side. Let's get those Downtown storefronts full of life, get a few people employed and resuscitate sidewalk life, before we create even more empty space. One of the more ethical developers Downtown has a history of giving local artists free rent in his unrented storefronts, and actual shops seem to take notice and move on in pretty quickly once that happens. And good lord, money for stadiums does not grow on trees, it grows on closed schools and missing sidewalks.

In the neighborhoods, StL has a rich, rich culture of DIY rehab. A huge percentage of the people I know have little projects, and people work together and share ideas and tools. It is an almost entirely brick city, and compared to Detroit the surviving building stock is older. Those buildings are purty, and they can take years of neglect while remaining viable. To the extent that the city has reversed its decline, it has done so largely as a result of individuals knitting neighborhoods back together building by building and block by block.

If I were mayor of St. Louis, I'd look for ways that the city could remove civic and fiscal roadblocks for small-time rehabbers and business owners. Just like Detroit, the reasons projects get stalled are insane. A friend consulted on a rehab of a building purchased from the city, and the whole project got stuck in a holding pattern for three months because they didn't have a line item in their budget for mini-blinds, and no one told them it was necessary for three months. A friend who bought her house from the city suddenly found herself with thousands of dollars worth of sewer problems because the city had not paid the $12 insurance on the sewer when it owned it the year prior. And to buy a building from the city, you have to gain the approval of the alderman, who are generally every bit as competent, open-minded, and mature as members of Detroit's City Council. Dealing with that culture and taking a bite out of loan and insurance redlining would do more for the city than any half-empty but very sparkly loft building Downtown ever would.

More than you asked for, but that's my two cents. There is a lot I don't know about Detroit, and I'd appreciate the perspectives of those of you who know what's up. Any of this sound familiar? Have you been to my hometown?

Wow! Great description. I have the same opinion about helping small businesses and potential home owners acquiring homes to repopulate toughluck cities. I am very wary of development that razes neighborhoods and concentrates power and money in a couple of developers hands.

[kryptonite]

I lived in St. Louise 1979-80, in the Central West End on Pershing St.

I thought St. Louis was quite impressive, the mansions west of Kingshighway were incredible. The CWE was always a pleasure to walk through. Forest Park was beautiful, but not incredibly safe. There were some assaults of runners there and one day I was biking on the bike path and someone had been shot and killed in the handball courts during a robbery.

The Washington Univ. in University City was wonderful also. The suburbs in that area were gorgeous. In the city itself, Univ. of St.Louis was as crappy looking back then as Wayne State was. Nowadays Wayne State is much nicer, I guess USL has made improvements as well.

What I didn't care for about St. Louis was the extreme conservatism. Eventually I left the city because I was too liberal for such a repressive environment. No offense to St. Louis residents, but it was like going back in time there.

The north side was definitely a nightmare back then. I rarely ventured more than three blocks north of my apartment, the neighbohood deteriorated extremely over a very short distance.

Still, there are many similarities between the two cities. Both have a substantial manufacturing base, St. Louis was #2 in car production back then. Both have suffered major population loss and urban blight, although St. Louis held up better than Detroit then. At that time in south St. Louis you would never know you were in a declining urban area, the south side was vibrant and well-maintained as a rule.

Their downtown area was beginning to improve. Union Station was being renovated and Laclede's Landing was being developed on the riverfront into an attractive night life area. But the Mississippi River is not pretty, it was always brown and ugly. The Detroit River is wider and on a sunny day is always a pretty, blue body of water. And downtown Detroit and downtown Windsor are both attractive these days. Detroit's waterfront was quite ugly until Hart Plaza and the Renaissance Center were built. Now the Riverwalk along the Detroit shore is extremely nice.

But St. Louis definitely has some beautiful areas, it is well worth a visit to anyone that enjoys pretty architecture and historic neighborhoods.

[bibs]

Laclede's Landing - This is area is still prospering. For the folks in Detroit, it's about six blocks of cobble stone roads next to the St Louis Arch and there is a subway stop right there.

Universities - Besides St Louis University and Washington Univ, I think there are three or four more private colleges or unversities. I think the influx of outside money pouring into the universities has helped St. Louis.

Park System - I'm not sure is their maintenace had declined. Forest Park appeared to be very well maintained and is heavily used by students and citizens. Beautiful park.

North County or Noth St Louis - Heard the horror stories. Drove through it on route 367. I was amazed to see the exact same brick bungelows as a I do in Detroit. You literally can't tell the different between the two cities. Felt like I was in Detroit. It was a little rough around the edges but it wasn't that bad. East St Louis in Illionois is rough as well as Venice and Brooklyn.The latter two are like Hamtramck: small, poor and bankrupt.

Conservative - Honestly, I think the people are more liberally here. More tattoos and the people are laid back but the bible thumper here have a marketing budget and use it.

Cultural Attractions - They are well funded in St. Louis and they are in better shape. The zoo and science center are incredible. Admission to the zoo is free. The bontical garden is one of the best in the US.