M.C.D.H. What was this?

[ddmj6]

MCDH-DETROIT Silver Plate Syrup pitcher.Thanks to my good friend “R” for posting the first listing of the MCDH- Detroit item. I had to re-register before I could add add’l Info and photos. I purchased this item in Sutton’s Bay [[ North of Traverse City). The item is pretty rough, but I think it might be from Michigan Central Depot Hotel.The photo of the bottom is hard to see, put using a jeweler’s loupe , I think it says “ REED & BARTON, 1530 , PATENTED”. I would guess late 1800’s-early 1900’s but don’t know for sure? The Pitcher stands approx. 6 ¼ inches tall

[jcole]

Here's a link to Reed and Barton's website. Perhaps you could mail them the photo and see if they can give you any type of lead?
https://www.reedandbarton.com/site/default.aspx

A little history from their website:

The Reed & Barton story began in 1824, when Isaac Babbitt created a new metal alloy - "Britannia metal" - in his Taunton, Massachusetts pewter shop.


Babbitt joined forces with craftsmen Henry G. Reed and Charles E. Barton to produce this innovative, higher quality pewter ware. When Babbitt encountered financial difficulties, Reed & Barton offered to take control and began manufacturing products under their own names. The fledgling company's goods reflected uncompromising standards of excellence, starting with its initial silverplate products and extending to the exquisite sterling silver creations that resulted from the silver discoveries of the late 1800s.

[ddmj6]

Additional photo of depot

[Stosh]

Additional photo of depot

It's not a hotel.

If anything, it would be from the dining car onboard the train, or perhaps the dining hall in the train station?

[jcole]

There never was a hotel in that building. There were supposed to be offices for the rail company but I don't think they ever came to fruition.

[gazhekwe]

Conrail offices were in that building. A friend of the family worked there and kept track of freighter traffic from his office window as a hobby. He retired in 1986.

[EastsideAl]

If it's from before 1913 you're talking about this building, which stood on Third by the river:



But there's no evidence I can find of a "Michigan Central Depot Hotel" anywhere near there either.

[EastsideAl]

I'm a bit more interested in the item itself, now that we've seen more of it. What is that spout assembly under the lid about? That would seem to make it unlikely that the item was designed as a beer stein or tankard. Perhaps some sort of decanter or pitcher.

From what I can tell of Reed and Barton markings, the plain marking on the bottom makes it very likely that the item was made before 1928. R&B started using year markings then. It very well may be something more utilitarian than a presentation piece. In the 1800s and into the 1900s R&B made a lot of service ware for hospitals, railroads, etc., in addition to their higher-end products.

[lilpup]

But was there a dining hall in the depot?

This website has two Reed & Barton patterns listed for Michigan Central's commissary - Cecil [[1899 Silverplate) and Rex [[1894 Silverplate). You might shoot them a photo and see if they can give a positive ID.

[jcole]

I'm a bit more interested in the item itself, now that we've seen more of it. What is that spout assembly under the lid about? That would seem to make it unlikely that the item was designed as a beer stein or tankard. Perhaps some sort of decanter or pitcher.

From what I can tell of Reed and Barton markings, the plain marking on the bottom makes it very likely that the item was made before 1928. R&B started using year markings then. It very well may be something more utilitarian than a presentation piece. In the 1800s and into the 1900s R&B made a lot of service ware for hospitals, railroads, etc., in addition to their higher-end products.

He said it was a syrup pitcher.

[EastsideAl]

He said it was a syrup pitcher.

That makes sense. I found a little thread about a very similar piece here:
http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Ant...geID=514799707
Unfortunately, not a lot of information though. Just some speculation that it may be a railroad piece.

[Stosh]

But was there a dining hall in the depot?

This website has two Reed & Barton patterns listed for Michigan Central's commissary - Cecil [[1899 Silverplate) and Rex [[1894 Silverplate). You might shoot them a photo and see if they can give a positive ID.

Yes there was. See the last line.




http://books.google.com/books?id=gIs...0third&f=false

[gazhekwe]

Michigan Central Depot was built in 1913 to replace a prior structure that burned.

A prior Michigan Central Depot on Third was built in 1893, but replaced when the rail tunnel was built. [[Railroad Depots of Michigan 1910-1920, David J.Mrozek, page 21). [[Who knows if it burned or was just in the wrong place?

The new building was being built when the fire occurred:
December 26, 1913 A fire in the Michigan Central depot in Detroit forces the railroad to move into their new station and office building several weeks early.
http://www.nrhs.com/almanac/rr-almanac-1900-1919.pdf, page 22

According to Buildings of Detroit, there was a lovely restaurant in the current depot:

At the west of the waiting room was the restaurant, featuring marble counters and floors of Welsh quarry tile.
http://buildingsofdetroit.com/places/mcs

There was a Michigan Central Depot in Detroit in 1851, too.

1851 Twelve men are convicted of conspiring to burn down the Michigan Central Depot in Detroit in protest over high rates and autocratic business dealings by the railroad. This event will become known as "The Great Railroad Conspiracy".

http://www.kinglyheirs.com/NewYorkSt...ntralHome.html

I found some info that this station may have been on Brush Street. First rail was built in 1837 here, and expanded in 1855 -1857. The Brush St. location was used unitl the MCRR station was built on Third. The Third St. location was referred to as in use in 1877, prior to the one built in 1893.

http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRH...etroitMenu.htm

I haven't found any info on hotels in or near the former locations yet.

[Stosh]

Michigan Central Depot was built in 1913 to replace a prior structure that burned.

A prior Michigan Central Depot on Third was built in 1893, but replaced when the rail tunnel was built. [[Railroad Depots of Michigan 1910-1920, David J.Mrozek, page 21). [[Who knows if it burned or was just in the wrong place?

According to Buildings of Detroit, there was a lovely restaurant in the current depot:

At the west of the waiting room was the restaurant, featuring marble counters and floors of Welsh quarry tile.
http://buildingsofdetroit.com/places/mcs

There was a Michigan Central Depot in Detroit in 1851, too.

1851 Twelve men are convicted of conspiring to burn down the Michigan Central Depot in Detroit in protest over high rates and autocratic business dealings by the railroad. This event will become known as "The Great Railroad Conspiracy".

http://www.kinglyheirs.com/NewYorkSt...ntralHome.html

I found some info that this station may have been on Brush Street. First rail was built in 1837 here, and expanded in 1855 -1857. The Brush St. location was used unitl the MCRR station was built on Third. The Third St. location was referred to as in use in 1877, prior to the one built in 1893.

http://www.michiganrailroads.com/RRH...etroitMenu.htm

I haven't found any info on hotels in or near the former locations yet.

A restaurant, and lunch counter at the present MCS, but not a dining hall per se.



http://books.google.com/books?id=t2w...20plan&f=false

MCS was built in 1913 to replace the one at Woodbridge and Third. That one was built to replace the previous one that was destroyed by arson.

[EastsideAl]

The Brush St. depot was indeed one of Detroit's earliest train stations. But that location was for the predecessors of the Grand Trunk [[Detroit & Pontiac, Detroit & Milwaukee, Great Western), not Michigan Central. That depot's 19th Century replacement was in use for Grand Trunk commuter trains until the small station was torn down for the construction of the Renaissance Center in the mid-70s. Even after that, the platforms remained, and trains still ran there, until commuter train service was ended in 1984.

1880s maps show the nearest large hotel as the Wabash. But since it was not a Michigan Central station there wouldn't be anything named after that line there anyway.

Brush St. Depot:

[gazhekwe]

That's great, Al! According to the source I found above, though, there was a Michigan Central Depot prior to the one on Third being built in 1893, and the Brush Street one was used until MCRR built theirs on Third.

At the same time, if the Hotel was the Wabash, it wouldn't be the MCDH.

I have been searching the forum for a thread that had a picture of the Depot on Third and some commentary about it. I THINK there was a hotel across the way. Well, it might be on the old forum. I went over there and couldn't find a way to advance the pages or search it, so I am stymied.

Maybe the City Directory of the 1890s would show it.

[EastsideAl]

The earliest railroads in Detroit in fact ran down the streets - Gratiot from the east and Michigan from the west - to depots downtown. The Michigan Central came in from the west, and had its first depot in a shack at Michigan and Griswold.

In the 1850s the trains were moved into dedicated easements and run to new railyards and stations near the river. Brush St. on the east side, and Third St. on the west side. Here is a picture of the original Michigan Central Depot on Third St., which preceded the 1884 buiding I posted a picture of above.



The nearest hotel to the Third St. Depot [[and the nearby Fort St. Union Depot, opened in 1893) was the massive Wayne Hotel. There was a pretty lengthy thread about that hotel on this board a few months back. But, again, no evidence of a Depot Hotel.

[gazhekwe]

Maybe that's what I was remembering. I remember there was a picture of a pavilion near the river attached to the hotel, so it served river traffic too.

So, we have id'd three different MCDs for Detroit with time slots for each. Now, to connect the syrup jug with one of them, all we have to do is figure out what the H stood for if not Hotel and find out when whatever it is was live.

[Brock7]

I found it listed in the 1887 Polk directory, but not in the 1885 or 1895 editions.

1887 Polk Detroit City Directory p994
*Michigan Central Dining Hall, depot, foot of 3d.
*Michigan Celntral R R, H B Ledyard
Pres and Gen Mngr, O W Ruggles
Gen Pass Agt, Chicago, W R Busenbark
Asst Gen Pass Agt, Chicago, C A
Warren Pass Agt, Detroit, Passenger
Depot and Offices foot 3d, Freight Depot
foot 4th, Ticket Office 66 Woodward
ave. [[See page 146.)
Michigan Central R R Band, 336 2d.
*Michigan Central R R Car Shops, West
Detroit..
*Michigan Central R R Co's City Freight
Office, Walter Macmillan agt, 154 Jefferson
ave.
Michigan Central R R Elevators, A foot
8th, B foot 12th.
*Michigan Central Stock Yards, w s Mich -
igan Central car shops bet Dix ave and
M C R R .
Michigan Central Stock Yards Hotel,
George Dorr propr, nr Junction yards,
Springwells.

[gazhekwe]

Yippee!!!!! Good sleuthing!

[Stosh]

Yippee!!!!! Good sleuthing!

Yes I suppose so. I guess that I should. Have made the clip bigger in my post above.

[Hornwrecker]

The Brush St. depot was indeed one of Detroit's earliest train stations. But that location was for the predecessors of the Grand Trunk [[Detroit & Pontiac, Detroit & Milwaukee, Great Western), not Michigan Central.

You're correct about the MCRR not being at Brush St, but a NYC constituent, the Lake Shore & Michigan Southern did have facilities in that area of the riverfront. I believe that they had a ferry slip there, and also had a roundhouse at Atwater near Rivard. I'll have to dig through the Sanborn maps to see if they had their own station in that area or shared one with GTW. I don't know if these remained in use until 1914, when LS&MS became part of MC/NYC RR.

[Ragtoplover59]

M.C.D.H was the "Michigan Central Dining Hall" in 1887 ?

And most certainly not to be confused with M.D.C.H [[Michigan Department of Community Health) I was worried his hands were going to fall off after touching that thing

This is one fine group of people, when I was asked about this item, I knew this was the place to get information. KUDOS to all of you!

[lilpup]

M.C.D.H was the "Michigan Central Dining Hall" in 1887 ?

And most certainly not to be confused with M.D.C.H [[Michigan Department of Community Health) I was worried his hands were going to fall off after touching that thing

This is one fine group of people, when I was asked about this item, I knew this was the place to get information. KUDOS to all of you!

It seems to match but I still recommend contacting Reed & Barton or the Railroad Commissary collector for a second opinion.

[Brock7]

The photo of the bottom is hard to see, put using a jeweler’s loupe , I think it says “ REED & BARTON, 1530 , PATENTED”

I think the model number stamped on the bottom looks more like 1560 - the same as the one in the ebay forum thread that EastsideAl linked to: http://forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Ant...geID=514799707