Does Palmer Park Need Two Golf Courses?

**royce** · November-11-10, 02:42 AM

There is a public golf course and a private golf course at Palmer Park. I've heard that membership fees have dropped from around $35000 a year to $6000 at the private golf course. Looks like the private golf club might fold. Personally, I say, "let it fold." It has always amazed me, regarding private golf courses, that we take away from the public so much municipal space to make golf courses just for the enjoyment of a few rich folks. At anyrate, my main point in this thread is to suggest that there should be only one golf course in Palmer Park. Keep the private course [[the western course), make it a public course, and use the current public course for retail development.

I have envisioned that the corner of Seven Mile and Woodward would be a much more accessible area for retail then the proposed Shoppes at Gateway [[ SAG) at the Michigan State Fairgrounds. The area is the most affluent area of Detroit and it would be far more walkable for residents if retail was at Seven and Woodward instead of Eight Mile and Woodward. Better crosstown access by bus would exist at Seven and Woodward than Eight and Woodward. For all of this to happen, however, the public golf course has to be eliminated. I could envision a strip mall with a Target and a Meijer's as anchors and other smaller retail shops. Parking would be in the back, with stores facing both Woodward and Seven Mile, respectively. I know, it would never happen, but that intersection just seems so ideal for retail instead of a golf course, especially since Seven Mile from Wyoming to Woodward is essentially all residential.

bartock · November-11-10, 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by royce

There is a public golf course and a private golf course at Palmer Park. I've heard that membership fees have dropped from around $35000 a year to $6000 at the private golf course. Looks like the private golf club might fold. Personally, I say, "let it fold." It has always amazed me, regarding private golf courses, that we take away from the public so much municipal space to make golf courses just for the enjoyment of a few rich folks. At anyrate, my main point in this thread is to suggest that there should be only one golf course in Palmer Park. Keep the private course [[the western course), make it a public course, and use the current public course for retail development.

I have envisioned that the corner of Seven Mile and Woodward would be a much more accessible area for retail then the proposed Shoppes at Gateway [[ SAG)

at the Michigan State Fairgrounds. The area is the most affluent area of Detroit and it would be far more walkable for residents if retail was at Seven and Woodward instead of Eight Mile and Woodward. Better crosstown access by bus would exist at Seven and Woodward than Eight and Woodward. For all of this to happen, however, the public golf course has to be eliminated. I could envision a strip mall with a Target and a Meijer's as anchors and other smaller retail shops. Parking would be in the back, with stores facing both Woodward and Seven Mile, respectively. I know, it would never happen, but that intersection just seems so ideal for retail instead of a golf course, especially since Seven Mile from Wyoming to Woodward is essentially all residential.

Most country clubs have a one-time membership fee, along with minimum monthly amounts that need to be spent, greens fees, and then an annual fee set by a board [[forgot what the term is). As far as I know, the most expensive country club in this area is the County Club of Detroit in Grosse Pointe Shores [[Farms?), which had a one time fee of $25,000, and annual fees approaching the same.

Detroit Country Club is more akin to Lochmoor Country Club, which generally have membership fees of $10,000 or less [[Lochmoor reduced theirs to $5K or $7K a couple of years ago), and annual costs reflecting same. All area county clubs have reduced their membership fees in recent years due to the bad economy. As far as I know, DCC is holding its own in tough times.

DCC is more than 100 years old and is in one of the most exclusive and still-maintained wealthy neighborhoods in Detroit. If the club is gone, or if it goes public, the relative exclusivity of the neighborhood will go with it.

As for the public course, when I went to UDM I loved it, and it was a very popular and affordable place for regular folks. It is flat and wide open, a perfect place for someone to teach their son, daughter, grandchildren, etc., to golf. I would rather see Livernois from McNichols through the Avenue of Fashion become a retail hub once again, and Wyoming, which, last time I looked, was quite the mess. If [[ever) that Gateway project is completed, there would be plenty of areas to build retail without disturbing the beautiful landscape and architecture of those neighborhoods and the golf courses.

**GPCharles** · November-11-10, 09:18 AM

Are you talking about the Detroit Golf Club?

BTW - The Country Club of Detroit is in Grosse Pointe Farms and at one time [[pre-crash) the Intiation Fee was $52K. It has now been reduced to $30K, temporarily. Monthly dues are $630++.

bartock · November-11-10, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by GPCharles

Are you talking about the Detroit Golf Club?

BTW - The Country Club of Detroit is in Grosse Pointe Farms and at one time [[pre-crash) the Intiation Fee was $52K. It has now been reduced to $30K, temporarily. Monthly dues are $630++.

Yes, Golf Club. I know a member of CCD [[which is as close to becoming a member as I'll ever get!) and he told me it cost him $25K, but to think of it, I think he became a member 20+ years ago.

**GPCharles** · November-11-10, 10:40 AM

The great thing about DGC is that it has two 18 hole courses and no tee times. Walk up, get in the lineup and tee off when your time is up.

**Goose** · November-11-10, 11:06 AM

yes, the government should confiscate all private owned lands, be they land wasted for private club golf course use, or land wasted for lavish mcmansions, and convert it all to public land for the benefit of all.....

**Mikeg** · November-11-10, 11:08 AM

Does Palmer Park Need Two Golf Courses?

Does the city of Detroit [[or any city, for that matter) need to be in the business of owning and operating a golf course?

**gnome** · November-11-10, 12:20 PM

IIRC, under Archer, the operation of all City of Detroit golf courses were leased to the American Golf Inc. In short, they pay the good people of Detroit for the opportunity to run the courses. They make money, the city makes money, the courses are nicer and cleaner.

They are the poster-child for turning city services over to private firms.

**Jason** · November-11-10, 01:49 PM

Yikes! I knew those clubs were expensive but I didn't know they were THAT expensive!!

Anyway, I think the public course is fine how it is, but I think it would be reasonable to develop a narrow strip of it along Woodward. Not now though, it's not like there's not plenty of land across the street that could be developed instead.

**Hypestyles** · November-11-10, 02:09 PM

there should be more well-maintained public parks throughout detroit..

**Detroitnerd** · November-11-10, 02:18 PM

Yeah, lets turn that land open for development. That way, it will be abandoned shells within 30 years. Hooray!

**pkbroch** · November-11-10, 02:30 PM

A part of Palmer Park near six mile was bought by the Detroit Zoo for its expansion at the turn of the century. They sold it and purchased land at Ten mile and Woodward in Royal Oak.

http://searchwarp.com/swa232441.htm

I believe that the land that DGC and the homes around it are on was privately purchased from the
Log Cabin Land Development company, as was Palmer Woods Subdivision in 1915.

lincoln8740 · November-11-10, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Yeah, lets turn that land open for development. That way, it will be abandoned shells within 30 years. Hooray!

I say the government should seize the property and keep it a green space. Great way to combat sprawl--whoops wait that's your idea!!!

**softailrider** · November-11-10, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by bartock

Most country clubs have a one-time membership fee, along with minimum monthly amounts that need to be spent, greens fees, and then an annual fee set by a board [[forgot what the term is). As far as I know, the most expensive country club in this area is the County Club of Detroit in Grosse Pointe Shores [[Farms?), which had a one time fee of $25,000, and annual fees approaching the same.

Detroit Country Club is more akin to Lochmoor Country Club, which generally have membership fees of $10,000 or less [[Lochmoor reduced theirs to $5K or $7K a couple of years ago), and annual costs reflecting same. All area county clubs have reduced their membership fees in recent years due to the bad economy. As far as I know, DCC is holding its own in tough times.

DCC is more than 100 years old and is in one of the most exclusive and still-maintained wealthy neighborhoods in Detroit. If the club is gone, or if it goes public, the relative exclusivity of the neighborhood will go with it.

As for the public course, when I went to UDM I loved it, and it was a very popular and affordable place for regular folks. It is flat and wide open, a perfect place for someone to teach their son, daughter, grandchildren, etc., to golf. I would rather see Livernois from McNichols through the Avenue of Fashion become a retail hub once again, and Wyoming, which, last time I looked, was quite the mess. If [[ever) that Gateway project is completed, there would be plenty of areas to build retail without disturbing the beautiful landscape and architecture of those neighborhoods and the golf courses.

Oakland Hills is way more expensive to join then any of the clubs you mentioned. However, I would severely doubt that DCC is going to fold anytime soon. If they get short on cash there's this thing called an ASSESSMENT. Good news is if you want to join Oakland, there's no waiting list anymore! Just pony up the bucks, go out and tee it up! The greenskeepers can be brutal, from the members tees the course is very tough, when you get on the greens it gets interesting to say the least.

As an aside, there was a U.S Amature played at DCC in the 50's. Arnold Palmer won that championship. It's a grand old place, members love and are very proud of it.

**Johnlodge** · November-11-10, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by Hypestyles

there should be more well-maintained public parks throughout detroit..

How about maintaining the ones that are already there first?

**canuck** · November-11-10, 02:50 PM

You could probably mine the two golf courses for residual chemicals from pesticides and finance a shopping mall with an underground parking lot. It's all in the will to appropriate and make good use of things past...

**swingline** · November-11-10, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by royce

There is a public golf course and a private golf course at Palmer Park. I've heard that membership fees have dropped from around $35000 a year to $6000 at the private golf course. Looks like the private golf club might fold. Personally, I say, "let it fold." It has always amazed me, regarding private golf courses, that we take away from the public so much municipal space to make golf courses just for the enjoyment of a few rich folks. .

Come on now, Royce. Where is there an example of Detroit, or any other city, taking away "municipal space" to make golf courses for rich people? [[To answer my own question, there is a debate about the new Nicklaus course in Benton Harbor, but this is a rare situation.) The Detroit Golf Club cetainly isn't an example. The place has been there for 100 years and consists of land assembled through private purchases of farm and woodland that was at the urban fringe of Detroit at the time. Nobody did the club any favors to permit a golf course at that location at least a decade before the advent of zoning ordinances. What is your point here? Are you suggesting that there's not enough greenspace or parkland in Detroit?

Originally Posted by royce

At anyrate, my main point in this thread is to suggest that there should be only one golf course in Palmer Park. Keep the private course [[the western course), make it a public course, and use the current public course for retail development.

DGC isn't going anywhere. How does one make it a public course? The city-owned course at Palmer Park does just fine too. And it serves those "non -rich" golfers you're concerned about.

Originally Posted by royce

I have envisioned that the corner of Seven Mile and Woodward would be a much more accessible area for retail then the proposed Shoppes at Gateway [[ SAG) at the Michigan State Fairgrounds. The area is the most affluent area of Detroit and it would be far more walkable for residents if retail was at Seven and Woodward instead of Eight Mile and Woodward. Better crosstown access by bus would exist at Seven and Woodward than Eight and Woodward.

Don't agree with this. The Shoppes at Gateway need the much higher traffic counts of Eight Mile Road. Moreover, any retail developer knows that Oakland County shoppers would be far less inclined to venture even one short mile into Detroit than they would to travel to a destination right on Eight Mile. Concerns about walkability are irrelevant. There is nothing walkable about this area. Woodward Avenue in this stretch is as wide as an interstate freeway. Traffic moves at 50mph. Anyway, a big box store cannot exist in an area with high walkability scores unless you're talking about Manhattan-level densities.

**DetroitPlanner** · November-11-10, 03:12 PM

In a city talking about shrinking development footprints the last thing we need to do is to replace greenspace with impervious surface.

**royce** · November-11-10, 03:12 PM

Well, Dabirch, what exactly do you not like about my suggestion? If you don't want to mince words, then at least explain your disgust instead of just saying your disgusted. Leading up to your post, no one else called my suggestion idiotic. What makes you the end-all, be-all, that you feel compelled to insult me? Does that work well with your personal relationships? Again, I don't mind someone saying that they don't like my suggestions, but to call them idiotic? Again, what makes you an expert on this forum? What are your credentials regarding urban planning or development? It unfortunate that you can't be cordial. Just for you I won't make any more suggestions on this forum ever because it is obvious to you that I don't have a brain worth sharing on this forum. Goodbye, forum. It was an interesting ride.

bartock · November-11-10, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by softailrider

Oakland Hills is way more expensive to join then any of the clubs you mentioned. However, I would severely doubt that DCC is going to fold anytime soon. If they get short on cash there's this thing called an ASSESSMENT. Good news is if you want to join Oakland, there's no waiting list anymore! Just pony up the bucks, go out and tee it up! The greenskeepers can be brutal, from the members tees the course is very tough, when you get on the greens it gets interesting to say the least.

As an aside, there was a U.S Amature played at DCC in the 50's. Arnold Palmer won that championship. It's a grand old place, members love and are very proud of it.

Assessment was the word!

I probably should have just said that Country Club of Detroit is more expensive than DGC, left it at that, and moved on to not agreeing with the idea. I would think you must be right about Oakland Hills, and perhaps a couple of others [[the one in West Bloomfield, perhaps TPC). I can't afford any of it, so...

EastSider · November-15-10, 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by royce

Well, Dabirch, what exactly do you not like about my suggestion? If you don't want to mince words, then at least explain your disgust instead of just saying your disgusted. Leading up to your post, no one else called my suggestion idiotic. What makes you the end-all, be-all, that you feel compelled to insult me? Does that work well with your personal relationships? Again, I don't mind someone saying that they don't like my suggestions, but to call them idiotic? Again, what makes you an expert on this forum? What are your credentials regarding urban planning or development? It unfortunate that you can't be cordial. Just for you I won't make any more suggestions on this forum ever because it is obvious to you that I don't have a brain worth sharing on this forum. Goodbye, forum. It was an interesting ride.

I can't speak for Dabirch, but I think your contention that somehow 7 Mile would be better crosstown than 8 Mile is...um...suspect.

**Johnlodge** · November-15-10, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by royce

Just for you I won't make any more suggestions on this forum ever because it is obvious to you that I don't have a brain worth sharing on this forum. Goodbye, forum. It was an interesting ride.

If only it was always that easy.

**Gistok** · November-15-10, 03:29 PM

Originally Posted by Dabirch

Royce - you have started many idiotic threads in the 7 or so years I have been here [[my personal favorite up until today being the potential 1 to 2 minute inconvienince of Campus Martius) -- but this one really takes the cake.

Wow.

Wow is right.... gee Dabirch... with only 33 posts in the last 2 years... was that condescending attitude really necessary?? Maybe lurking does suit you better....

At least Royce's threads [[while not always my cup of tea either)... make people think and debate. Being a non-golfing eastsider, I had never paid much attention to the dual golf courses at Palmer Park. Well now when people complain that the Grosse Pointes and St. Clair Shores have private parks.... I'll have a Detroit counterpoint to reference to...

Bearinabox · November-15-10, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

At least Royce's threads [[while not always my cup of tea either)... make people think and debate.

I don't know that "think" is exactly the right word for it. It's more like my brain is Graf Dracula and Royce's posts are the sun.

**bailey** · November-15-10, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

Wow is right.... gee Dabirch... with only 33 posts in the last 2 years... was that condescending attitude really necessary?? Maybe lurking does suit you better....

At least Royce's threads [[while not always my cup of tea either)... make people think and debate. Being a non-golfing eastsider, I had never paid much attention to the dual golf courses at Palmer Park. Well now when people complain that the Grosse Pointes and St. Clair Shores have private parks.... I'll have a Detroit counterpoint to reference to...

Well, not exactly. One can join the private club [[DGC) and the public one simply charges more for non-residents. neither is an option for the GP parks [[don't know about SCS...I thought non residents could buy access?). Is there another municipality in Michigan with resident's only parks?