Will Incentives bring cops, firefighters back to the City?

Buy American · November-07-10, 11:38 AM

When Bing played for the Detroit Pistons did he put less of his heart into the game because he didn't live in Detroit? He still owns his home in the suburbs doesn't he? The minute he is out of office, he will leave Detroit behind in a flash.

What possible incentives could entice anyone back into Detroit while the City is in the condition it's in today? Being a cop or firefighter, living in Detroit, wouldn't make a difference in how the thugs and gangbangers run their operations. When I lived in Detroit, we were surrounded by cops and firefighters and when it came to protecting the neighborhoods I still had to call 911. The cops on my block didn't want to get involved because they feared the same things we all feared, retaliation against their families, their homes, their cars. Would Bing allow cops to bring their squad cars home and park them in their driveways to make their presence known? Where are the "stable" neighborhoods?

When Bing was talking to those high school students, did he happen to mention those firefighters who were injured in the Oct. 13th fire? Did he happen to mention that they lived in the suburbs?

It must have really rubbed Bing wrong to visit those injured firemen in the suburbs after they were critically hurt in the Oct. 13th fire. I wonder if they fought that fire any less or put less of their heart into fighting that fire that morning. At least 4 of them will never return to work or a normal life again because of their injuries. Were they any less dedicated to Detroit? Residency didn't make a difference there and it won't make a difference in the Police Department.

Bings attitude explains a lot to me now, I know someone right now who is a totally qualified applicant for the Police Department who is being ignored by the recruiting department. He is not a felon, no traffic infractions, excellent credit, passed all tests; taken the physical agility test no less than 3 times and passed [[they are only good for 6 months), yet not called..why? ...He lives in the suburbs. Detroiters, the clergy, the administration have made their positions well known...we don't want help from the suburbs. There is a code speak here and we all know what it is.

**Gannon** · November-07-10, 01:08 PM

I am involved with the process to re-write the City Charter now, and will attend yet another meeting this afternoon regarding the fire and police departments. There is a huge push for increased awareness of where people live.

In my estimation, there are basically three sorts of folk who join these organizations [[and the types are NOT mutually exclusive, not immutable...one can evolve or devolve into any of the categories over time, usually in reaction to various stimulii).

The heroes join to make a difference and perhaps follow a lifelong dream..

The workers join because it is a job.

The users join because there are certain perks to being either a police officer or fireperson.

Those last two are MUCH more prone to the temptations of job fatigue and corruption.

We want to encourage the first one...and I'm calling for the Police Commission to be allowed to both continue with their current task of investigating complaints...but also to be allowed to celebrate greatness. If there is a similar oversight committee with the fire department, I want their best to be elevated within the department as well. At the moment, progress through the ranks is tainted by favoritism and other crony-isms which stem from the political appointment of their heads.

We wish to put the leadership of each more closely in the hands of the populace...definitely removing it from the current Strong-Mayor situation where they serve at the grace of the one at the helm...which led to [[or allowed) the abuses we saw in the previous administrations.

I do not see any problem with looking for Detroiters FIRST for positions, but if your friend is being ignored...we have a serious problem. We need good people, and want them to want to live in the city as we continue striving to improve this city in every way, shape, and form.

Do not merely complain, that makes you a solid part of the problem. Find a way to make it right, and join in our efforts to forge a better Detroit.

Cheers

**Meddle** · November-07-10, 01:11 PM

Bring their cars home? Why, so they can't get stolen out of the driveways?

Public Safety personnel won't be added until business comes back and starts paying taxes and everyone with their hand stuck out gets paid off first.

Public Safety is the last to get added and the first to get cut.

DetroitPole · November-07-10, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Buy American

When Bing played for the Detroit Pistons did he put less of his heart into the game because he didn't live in Detroit? He still owns his home in the suburbs doesn't he? The minute he is out of office, he will leave Detroit behind in a flash.

What possible incentives could entice anyone back into Detroit while the City is in the condition it's in today? Being a cop or firefighter, living in Detroit, wouldn't make a difference in how the thugs and gangbangers run their operations. When I lived in Detroit, we were surrounded by cops and firefighters and when it came to protecting the neighborhoods I still had to call 911. The cops on my block didn't want to get involved because they feared the same things we all feared, retribution, against their families, their homes, their cars. Would Bing allow cops to bring their squad cars home and park them in their driveways to make their presence known? Where are the "stable" neighborhoods?

When Bing was talking to those high school students, did he happen to mention those firefighters who were injured in the Oct. 13th fire? Did he happen to mention that they lived in the suburbs?

It must have really rubbed Bing wrong to visit those injured firemen in the suburbs after they were critically hurt in the Oct. 13th fire. I wonder if they fought that fire any less or put less of their heart into fighting that fire that morning. At least 4 of them will never return to work or a normal life again because of their injuries. Were they any less dedicated to Detroit? Residency didn't make a difference there and it won't make a difference in the Police Department.

Bings attitude explains a lot to me now, I know someone right now who is a totally qualified applicant for the Police Department who is being ignored by the recruiting department. He is not a felon, no traffic infractions, excellent credit, passed all tests; taken the physical agility test no less than 3 times and passed [[they are only good for 6 months), yet not called..why? ...He lives in the suburbs. Detroiters, the clergy, the administration have made their positions well known...we don't want help from the suburbs. There is a code speak here and we all know what it is.

No one, except for yourself, has ever said public employees who live in the suburbs do any less of a job. If you're going to keep going on about this and not listening to ANYONE, find me one single quote where someone in a position of power said that employees living in the suburb put any "less of their heart" into their jobs.

We already know how you feel about anyone living in the city and that the city has no viable places to live. If you want some stable neighborhoods, fine, the old laundry list, Palmer Woods, Indian Village, East English Village, Rosedale, blah blah blah. There.

Why the hell are you so offended at the idea of offering incentives to living in the city? That doesn't negatively affect those who don't live in the city in any way. He's the mayor. The mayor wants people to move to his city. Does that make sense to you? As a civilian, my neighborhood qualified for a NEZ tax break. That helped me make the decision to live here. Does that offend you?

You're the one who drew the wild conclusion that your friend didn't get the job because he lives in the suburbs. Do you have anything to back that up? Did anyone tell him that? Maybe there are things he isn't telling you. Maybe in this economy they have found more qualified candidates. By you saying they didn't hire him because he lives in the suburbs is no different than someone wrongly and immediately playing the race card if they were to not get hired. Not always the case, sorry.

Did you read the article? Over HALF THE POLICE FORCE LIVES IN THE SUBURBS. So much for ignoring suburban candidates.

Buy American · November-07-10, 02:40 PM

DetroitPole:

What Bing is trying to do is make people think that just because an officer or a firefighter lives in a suburb he/she isn't as community orientated as one who lives within the city limits...if you can't see that or don't want to deal with reality, that's your problem.

Bing is only interested in a bigger tax base in Detroit, and by offering incentives [[bribes in my book), he thinks he can entice people to move back into the City...cops and firemen are much smarter than that.

You don't know jack shit about how I feel about Detroit. I am disgusted, disappointed, saddened and angry at what Detroit has become. Maybe there are a few small pockets of viable neighborhoods left in Detroit, but getting to them is harder and harder to do. These areas are surrounded by thugs, gangs, blight, and anything else I can throw in the mix.

It makes perfect sense to me for Bing to want people moving into Detroit, but he needs to clean up his backyard before trying to change residency.

As far as my friend is concerned, I say this... The only qualified applicants Detroit can get these days are from suburbanites. 99% of the people taking the physical agility test are from the suburbs and that has to tell you something. The other 1% is iffy because of questionable paperwork they filled out with mis-spelled words, wrong addresses, references that are non-existent.

**mwilbert** · November-07-10, 03:36 PM

The idea that people don't respond to incentives is counterfactual. The question is how big the incentives are. There are very few people who you could get to move anywhere for a very small incentive, but you can get many people to live on the Alaskan North Slope or the jungles of New Guinea if you compensate them. You could certainly get people to move a dozen miles into Detroit.

**Gistok** · November-07-10, 03:43 PM

Buy American and DetroitPole... you 2 are begging for a time out due to all your name calling...

But Buy American... your comments are off base in so many ways...

1) only 1 of those injured firemen were taken to a suburban hospital [[Beaumont)... the others were all at either Detroit Receiving or St. John. I doubt that Bing would be "rubbed the wrong way" over something so silly as visiting a wounded fireman in a suburban hospital... or in visiting them at their suburban homes. Just the other day he was at Somerset Mall in Troy doing the ribbon cutting for the new Detroit Store... he appeared to be enjoying himself... not seething about being in the burbs...

2) where any city employee lives after retirement is irrelevant to any discussion.... Bing could be moving to Palm Beach for all we know. Once you're retired you go where you please.... just ask Ray1936... retired Detroit Policeman and currently living in Las Vegas.

3) I don't know what "Copper Canyon" you grew up in, but the one I did on the far east side [[near St. John Hospital) was always a quite nice neighborhood. If you had a minor problem with others, you either called 911 or took care of it yourself. Why would you want to bother off duty police or fire men if you had a problem... I'm sure they didn't want to be bothered off duty. And your "retribution" comments... I don't ever remember anyone in our neighborhood worried about retribution... it wasn't exactly a "don't snitch" attitude in our neighborhood. And it was peaceful and quite.

4) having folks who have a vested interest in the neighborhood [[can't move out of the city)... made it a safer and more stable environment. You didn't worry about a sudden exodus of people out of the neighborhood, since you knew that these folks were here to stay [[until they retired), and people weren't panicked with worry about home values in their neighborhood.

5) not all of Detroit is the hell hole that you portray it to be... the East English Villlage and Cornerstone Village areas of the far east side are still in good shape, with lots of shopping opportunities and nice parks. Granted most of the city is in far worse shape... but police and firemen always avoided bad areas of Detroit when finding a place to live.

6) You are letting your personal views [[based on your friends trying to become a Detroit Police Officer) cloud your judgement about Detroit and their hiring practices.... you never know... there might be something that your friend has kept from you that puts him farther down on the list...

**rhythmc** · November-07-10, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

The idea that people don't respond to incentives is counterfactual. The question is how big the incentives are. There are very few people who you could get to move anywhere for a very small incentive, but you can get many people to live on the Alaskan North Slope or the jungles of New Guinea if you compensate them. You could certainly get people to move a dozen miles into Detroit.

Wasn't that the idea in offering people the homesteads out west? I agree with you. If the city offers a sensible deal, many of the officers and firefighters will take it. I don't see a problem with the mayor offering incentives to encourage the employees to move into the city. Building the tax base is the objective and I don't see a problem with it.

**DetroitTeacher** · November-07-10, 03:54 PM

We lived in Detroit for MANY years that dad was on the FD. He was dedicated. When the residency issue was no longer an issue, we moved to the burbs. He was still dedicated, and no less than before we moved. Dad never missed a day of work, living in or out of the city. He had his reasons for moving [[crime and having young daughters who always wanted to play outside without fear of bullets was the main reason). Do I think that the POs and FFs are any less dedicated if they live where they like? Nope. I've seen it first-hand. Allowing folks to live where they want makes for happier employees. It also makes for honest employess since most who were required to live in city for residency lied about actually doing so. I know many folks who lived in the burbs but had a Detroit address [[and a semi-vacant house).

Buy American · November-07-10, 04:21 PM

[quote=Gistok;196371]Buy American and DetroitPole... you 2 are begging for a time out due to all your name calling...

But Buy American... your comments are off base in so many ways...

1) only 1 of those injured firemen were taken to a suburban hospital [[Beaumont)... the others were all at either Detroit Receiving or St. John. I doubt that Bing would be "rubbed the wrong way" over something so silly as visiting a wounded fireman in a suburban hospital... or in visiting them at their suburban homes. Just the other day he was at Somerset Mall in Troy doing the ribbon cutting for the new Detroit Store... he appeared to be enjoying himself... not seething about being in the burbs...

I didn't say he visited them at a suburban hospital, he visited them at their suburban homes, after having them searched from attic to basement by his entourage.

2) where any city employee lives after retirement is irrelevant to any discussion.... Bing could be moving to Palm Beach for all we know. Once you're retired you go where you please.... just ask Ray1936... retired Detroit Policeman and currently living in Las Vegas.

Absolutely correct yet there are those on this forum who will disagree with my comments simply because I left Detroit after retirement.

3) I don't know what "Copper Canyon" you grew up in, but the one I did on the far east side [[near St. John Hospital) was always a quite nice neighborhood. If you had a minor problem with others, you either called 911 or took care of it yourself. Why would you want to bother off duty police or fire men if you had a problem... I'm sure they didn't want to be bothered off duty. And your "retribution" comments... I don't ever remember anyone in our neighborhood worried about retribution... it wasn't exactly a "don't snitch" attitude in our neighborhood. And it was peaceful and quite.

7 Mile and Hayes area and, again, you're correct...we didn't bother off duty cops if we had a problem so what is Bing talking about when he claims that it makes a difference when cops live in the neighborhoods ?

4) having folks who have a vested interest in the neighborhood [[can't move out of the city)... made it a safer and more stable environment. You didn't worry about a sudden exodus of people out of the neighborhood, since you knew that these folks were here to stay [[until they retired), and people weren't panicked with worry about home values in their neighborhood.

When I started my career with the City of Detroit in the 60's, I knew I had to stay there. I lived there for my entire career...the last few years I was very tempted to move because of the progressive deterioration of my neighborhood [[no matter how much vested interest I had). When I signed on, the City offered me secure employment, and it offered me a secure neighborhood to live in, services I could count on, ...it didn't keep it's promise to me and many others.

5) not all of Detroit is the hell hole that you portray it to be... the East English Villlage and Cornerstone Village areas of the far east side are still in good shape, with lots of shopping opportunities and nice parks. Granted most of the city is in far worse shape... but police and firemen always avoided bad areas of Detroit when finding a place to live.

I have seen many beautiful homes in those areas AND there were many beautiful homes in the less affluent areas as well, they are gone now.

6) You are letting your personal views [[based on your friends trying to become a Detroit Police Officer) cloud your judgement about Detroit and their hiring practices.... you never know... there might be something that your friend has kept from you that puts him farther down on the list...

No secrets, no hidden flaws, no ugly past....100% sure.

Buy American · November-07-10, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitTeacher

We lived in Detroit for MANY years that dad was on the FD. He was dedicated. When the residency issue was no longer an issue, we moved to the burbs. He was still dedicated, and no less than before we moved. Dad never missed a day of work, living in or out of the city. He had his reasons for moving [[crime and having young daughters who always wanted to play outside without fear of bullets was the main reason). Do I think that the POs and FFs are any less dedicated if they live where they like? Nope. I've seen it first-hand. Allowing folks to live where they want makes for happier employees. It also makes for honest employess since most who were required to live in city for residency lied about actually doing so. I know many folks who lived in the burbs but had a Detroit address [[and a semi-vacant house).

Too many people do not understand what we went through living in Detroit when it began to decline. I worried myself sick about my children, couldn't send them to public schools, didn't let them stay outside [[even in the backyard) at certain times when the animals were roaming the streets. If my daughter went out at night I asked her to stay with her friends until the next day, especially during my shift because I didn't want her coming home alone. Our street didn't have any lights and it was a perfect haven for thugs to lay in wait for a pretty blonde girl to get out of her car. We had alarms, spot lights...I felt like I was living in an armed camp.

**Gistok** · November-07-10, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by Buy American

Too many people do not understand what we went through living in Detroit when it began to decline. I worried myself sick about my children, couldn't send them to public schools, didn't let them stay outside [[even in the backyard) at certain times when the animals were roaming the streets. If my daughter went out at night I asked her to stay with her friends until the next day, especially during my shift because I didn't want her coming home alone. Our street didn't have any lights and it was a perfect haven for thugs to lay in wait for a pretty blonde girl to get out of her car. We had alarms, spot lights...I felt like I was living in an armed camp.

Buy American... you should have done like my parents next door neighbor did... he read up on the city policy for installing streetlights. He found out that if you get a petition signed by all the residents on the block... that the city would install additional street lights. That was in the 1990s... not sure if it still works that way today.

But unlike other streets in the Balduck Park area...where there's only a street light at intersections... if you go down Marseilles St. [[from Chester to Chandler Park Dr.) you will see a street light every 200 ft. [[instead of only 1 street light per block, Marseilles has 3 streetlights per block). It's the most well lit street in the area.

**Hermod** · November-07-10, 07:01 PM

When I went to work for the city of Detroit in 1961, I had to take a civil service examination which was a pretty good combo of a mini-SAT and a prep for professional engineer exam. I must have done pretty good, because they called me that afternoon and said I had a job if I had a Detroit address. My mother gave me the address of the lady who lived across the street from us on Nottingham where we lived from 1941 to 1954. As soon as I gave them the address, they hired me as a Civil Engineer [[I had graduated from college two days before). Then I started looking for a place to live in Detroit as I was getting married. I found a place a block off Schoenherr between seven and eight mile. All the time I worked for the city, the rule was you had to live in the city to work for the city.

**davewindsor** · November-07-10, 07:14 PM

Originally Posted by Buy American

Would Bing allow cops to bring their squad cars home and park them in their driveways to make their presence known?

You mean to tell me that in Detroit, with the kind of budget constraints it has, that each officer has their own squad car? Down here in Windsor, squad cars are in service 24/7. When one cop's shift ends, the next cop uses it. I'm pretty sure that's how most departments operate.

**Magnatomicflux** · November-07-10, 07:28 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

You mean to tell me that in Detroit, with the kind of budget constraints it has, that each officer has their own squad car? Down here in Windsor, squad cars are in service 24/7. When one cop's shift ends, the next cop uses it. I'm pretty sure that's how most departments operate.

I doubt it davewindsor.........I don't think anyone but a country bumpkin Sheriff can take their cruiser home. I think...THINK , he's basically saying putting a sign on thier lawn saying "I'm a Cop" will have no impact on the way criminals do buisness. So what's it matter where they live.

However.....I'm probably wrong.....I usually am

**iheartthed** · November-07-10, 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

You mean to tell me that in Detroit, with the kind of budget constraints it has, that each officer has their own squad car? Down here in Windsor, squad cars are in service 24/7. When one cop's shift ends, the next cop uses it. I'm pretty sure that's how most departments operate.

No, they don't.

**iheartthed** · November-07-10, 07:34 PM

This thread is so dumb it's almost incomprehensible. No, it IS incomprehensible. If the city of Detroit is such a hell hole that you can't be bothered to even be offered incentive to move there then maybe you shouldn't work there either. End of story.

**davewindsor** · November-07-10, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

No, they don't.

No, they don't what?

**Magnatomicflux** · November-07-10, 07:54 PM

Originally Posted by davewindsor

No, they don't what?

Take their cruisers home

**Hermod** · November-07-10, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux

I doubt it davewindsor.........I don't think anyone but a country bumpkin Sheriff can take their cruiser home. I think...THINK , he's basically saying putting a sign on thier lawn saying "I'm a Cop" will have no impact on the way criminals do buisness. So what's it matter where they live.

However.....I'm probably wrong.....I usually am

Very common down here in Florida, even in the cities.

**Magnatomicflux** · November-07-10, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Very common down here in Florida, even in the cities.

Really? See.....I was wrong lol

Is it because the Officer to cruiser numbers work out just so? Or would it be more of a Lt's and Sgt's etc, only kind of thing?

**davewindsor** · November-07-10, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by Magnatomicflux

Really? See.....I was wrong lol

Is it because the Officer to cruiser numbers work out just so? Or would it be more of a Lt's and Sgt's etc, only kind of thing?

Ya, and they're probably all Mustangs like from Reno 911 Miami.

**Islandman** · November-07-10, 08:39 PM

Very common in Charlotte. Had 2 cop cars in the apartment complex across the street.

**Fnemecek** · November-07-10, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by Buy American

What Bing is trying to do is make people think that just because an officer or a firefighter lives in a suburb he/she isn't as community orientated as one who lives within the city limits...

Actually, I think it has more with finding a scapegoat to blame his failures on. He can run around and say that Detroit would be a lot safer if more police officers and firefighters lived within the city limits. If he says it often enough and loud enough, maybe folks will forget about how the police and fire departments have seen their ranks slashed year after year.

If he says it often enough and loud enough, maybe folks will forget about all of the problems that I keep hearing from rank and file officers about not having the working squad cars that they need to get to a crime scene.

If he says it often enough and loud enough, maybe folks will forget about how the Detroit Police Department is the only major law enforcement agency in the United States without a central processing facility.

If he says it often enough and loud enough, maybe folks will start to believe it the way we believe George W. Bush when he told us that Iraq and weapons of mass destruction.

Or maybe - just maybe - Detroiters will be too smart to believe this crap.

For what it's worth, I know police officers in 9 different departments. Very few of them live in the areas that they police. The only ones who do, generally speaking, are single without any kids.

This isn't a Detroit phenomena, it's a human one. Many police officers worry that if they arrest some drug dealer and they live in or near his neighborhood, that dealer or one of his friends will go after their kids in retaliation.

Police officers - like most parents - would really prefer it if their kids were not attacked by drug dealers, murders, or rapists. Living in a different area is simply one of the ways that they minimize the probability of such a thing happening.

It doesn't matter whether they protect and serve Detroit, New York, Boston, or Las Vegas, parents tend to be protective of their children. Quite frankly, I don't see any incentive ever working that will override such a tendency.

**donpablo** · November-07-10, 10:13 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

If the city of Detroit is such a hell hole that you can't be bothered to even be offered incentive to move there then maybe you shouldn't work there either. End of story.

As a long time Detroit resident I totally agree.