Some fine law enforcement folks in Oakland county.

Blarf · October-20-10, 01:43 PM

I bet these guys sleep really good at night. Yikes.

http://www.freep.com/article/2010102...it-entrapment?

**Detroitnerd** · October-20-10, 01:52 PM

It think it's funny that Mike Bouchard, a member of the executive branch, is in the game of interpreting the law -- while he breaks it.

**bailey** · October-20-10, 02:16 PM

Where in the law does it authorize pot dispensaries? The cops did not round up the people in the restaurant nor stop anyone from using there. the only people getting arrested in these cases are the folks selling it to anyone who walks in off the street with somethign that resembles a certification card or growing a warehouse full of pot.

**EastsideAl** · October-20-10, 02:46 PM

Another L. Brooks 'law and order' crusade. This time using decidedly underhanded tactics. But that's the kind of thing that law enforcement does when it goes off on its own self-described 'crusade' over something that few if any citizens are actually complaining about and that is harming no one. All they've really done though is to most likely force a test case, so the last laugh could very well be on them.

Blarf · October-20-10, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Where in the law does it authorize pot dispensaries? The cops did not round up the people in the restaurant nor stop anyone from using there. the only people getting arrested in these cases are the folks selling it to anyone who walks in off the street with somethign that resembles a certification card or growing a warehouse full of pot.

I don't know, why don't you post the law so we can find out.

And if you read the article, you will see the police were turned down several times for having illegitimate paperwork, then used county computers to create legitimate looking cards, which were approved.

So when you say "only people getting arrested in these cases are the folks selling it to anyone who walks in off the street with somethign that resembles a certification card or growing a warehouse full of pot,"

**bailey** · October-20-10, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by Blarf

I don't know, why don't you post the law so we can find out.

And if you read the article, you will see the police were turned down several times for having illegitimate paperwork, then used county computers to create legitimate looking cards, which were approved.

So when you say "only people getting arrested in these cases are the folks selling it to anyone who walks in off the street with somethign that resembles a certification card or growing a warehouse full of pot,"

the law....http://tinyurl.com/283rzvx

Ok...sorry....let me rephrase..."the same people repeatedly coming back with subtly different documents until they finally get one that is close enough for the guy working the counter to have plausible deniability in selling to them." C'mon man, we were all under 21 once, we all know how that little game works.

I'm not against the MMA. Personally I think we should follow California's lead [[or what seems to be the likely result of Prop 19) in legalizing and taxing it. however, due to the state being run primarily by west michigan christianists, what we got was a purposefully vague and extremely poorly thought out law that gives neither protection to those that want to use MM nor much guidance for law enforcement. however, what is clear is there are alot of folks out there looking to turn a quick buck in the intervening chaos and for them I have little sympathy if they get caught up in the mess by being greedy.

lincoln8740 · October-20-10, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

the law....http://tinyurl.com/283rzvx

Ok...sorry....let me rephrase..."the same people repeatedly coming back with subtly different documents until they finally get one that is close enough for the guy working the counter to have plausible deniability in selling to them. C'mon man, we were all under 21 once, we all know how that little game works.

Using your analogy--Isn't the test for being convicted of selling alcohol to an underage person with a fake Id-- whether the person selling the alcohol should have known they were presented with a fake ID ?

It's not a zero sum game correct? I just can't recall too many cases where there was a perfect fake ID involved.

In this situation, the ID cards were perfect and they had the other appropiate paperwork as well.

**bailey** · October-20-10, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by lincoln8740

Using your analogy--Isn't the test for being convicted of selling alcohol to an underage person with a fake Id-- whether the person selling the alcohol should have known they were presented with a fake ID ?

It's not a zero sum game correct? I just can't recall too many cases where there was a perfect fake ID involved.

In this situation, the ID cards were perfect and they had the other appropiate paperwork as well.

Well again.. pursuant to the MDCH guidance on this.... "You, or your designated primary caregiver, may grow your marihuana. There is no place in the state of Michigan to legally purchase medical marihuana."

lincoln8740 · October-20-10, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Well again.. pursuant to the MDCH guidance on this.... "You, or your designated primary caregiver, may grow your marihuana. There is no place in the state of Michigan to legally purchase medical marihuana."

guidance is not the law and I really think this whole thing hinges on the quality of the cards and the inability to verify those cards with a State agency

**bailey** · October-20-10, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by lincoln8740

guidance is not the law and I really think this whole thing hinges on the quality of the cards and the inability to verify those cards with a State agency

The MDCH guidance is there to explain that under the act, THERE IS NO LEGAL PLACE TO PURCHASE POT IN MICHIGAN...ever. end of sentence end of paragraph. end of story.
The "cards" that the cops had gave them the right...like the others in the restaurant... to USE MM if they needed to. Nothing about having a card bestows a right to purchase pot over the counter.

however, the loophole looking to be exploited here is that " reasonable compensation" may be paid to a caregiver. BUT, in order to be a "caregiver" the following must be done ...

The MMMA provides for a system of designated caregivers. The caregiver can acquire 2.5 ounces of usable marihuana and grow up to 12 marihuana plants for a qualifying patient. The caregiver may assist up to 5 patients. The caregiver must sign a statement agreeing to provide marihuana only to the qualifying patients who have named the individual as their caregiver. The caregiver's name, address, birth date and social security number must be provided to the state at the time of a patient's registration. The Department will issue a registry identification card to the caregiver who is named by a qualifying patient on his/her application. The Department may not issue a registry identification card to a proposed caregiver who has previously been convicted of a felony drug offense. The Department will verify through a background check with the Michigan State Police that the designated caregiver has no disqualifying felony drug conviction. A caregiver may receive reasonable compensation for services provided to assist with a qualifying patient's medical use of marihuana.

The folks here are are saying...wait...we wern't running a pot store, we were just acting as caregivers...except they didn't go through any of the steps necessary to do so, they just checked a card and sold the pot.

lincoln8740 · October-20-10, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Well again.. pursuant to the MDCH guidance on this.... "You, or your designated primary caregiver, may grow your marihuana. There is no place in the state of Michigan to legally purchase medical marihuana."

Come to think of it would the old scalper trick work here?
Like this:

"Buy this coffee cup for three hundred dollars and you will recieve a Free ounce of a marijuana"

**bailey** · October-20-10, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by lincoln8740

Come to think of it would the old scalper trick work here?
Like this:

"Buy this coffee cup for three hundred dollars and you will recieve a Free ounce of a marijuana"

Ha. no, i don't think so, because it would be illegal to give the pot without being a "caregiver" who is properly dispensing to registered patients.

The point here is that the legislature is doing everythign possible to take the profit out of MM. Which, I think is patently stupid. no one is pushing to take the profit out of Oxy or Zoloft... legalize it and tax the crap out of it. It's a whole new revenue stream of sin taxes AND if we're first in the region, a whole new tourist trade.

lincoln8740 · October-20-10, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

The MDCH guidance is there to explain that under the act, THERE IS NO LEGAL PLACE TO PURCHASE POT IN MICHIGAN...ever. end of sentence end of paragraph. end of story.

What? Didn't know MDCH could create laws hmmm that's news to me

Well in that case can they say-- only purple kush can be used
or brownies are good but cookies are bad?

Guidance is not the law-end of sentence, end of paragraph, end of story

Now if there was an AG opinion--you might have a small argument. I would sitll disagree but I could see your point

Originally Posted by bailey

The "cards" that the cops had gave them the right...like the others in the restaurant... to USE MM if they needed to. Nothing about having a card bestows a right to purchase pot over the counter.

however, the loophole looking to be exploited here is that " reasonable compensation" may be paid to a caregiver. BUT, in order to be a "caregiver" the following must be done ...

The folks here are are saying...wait...we wern't running a pot store, we were just acting as caregivers...except they didn't go through any of the steps necessary to do so, they just checked a card and sold the pot.

From the same story:

There's nothing in the act that addresses the change process if a patient wants to add a caregiver or remove a caregiver," and whether dispensaries are illegal "is nothing that we have any opinion on," Celeste Clarkson, manager of the Michigan Medical Marijuana Registry Program, said Tuesday.

Blarf · October-20-10, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

the law....http://tinyurl.com/283rzvx

Ok...sorry....let me rephrase..."the same people repeatedly coming back with subtly different documents until they finally get one that is close enough for the guy working the counter to have plausible deniability in selling to them." C'mon man, we were all under 21 once, we all know how that little game works.

I'm not against the MMA. Personally I think we should follow California's lead [[or what seems to be the likely result of Prop 19) in legalizing and taxing it. however, due to the state being run primarily by west michigan christianists, what we got was a purposefully vague and extremely poorly thought out law that gives neither protection to those that want to use MM nor much guidance for law enforcement. however, what is clear is there are alot of folks out there looking to turn a quick buck in the intervening chaos and for them I have little sympathy if they get caught up in the mess by being greedy.

The owner who was interviewed this morning on a radio show gave his side. He said the documents were done so well [[probably considering they were done on a county computer), that there was no way to tell. He also said we should adopt the California method as well, where they can check and verify.

Either way, this is a huge waste of time and money, and the police look like weasels going after sick people, and a place dispensing marijuana to sick people. I would assume there is real crime in Oakland County to worry about, but I live in Macomb county, so I don't know. Can't they use all this time and effort to set up stings for arresting adults trying to meet and have sex with children on the internet or something?

lincoln8740 · October-20-10, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

Ha. no, i don't think so, because it would be illegal to give the pot without being a "caregiver" who is properly dispensing to registered patients.

The point here is that the legislature is doing everythign possible to take the profit out of MM. Which, I think is patently stupid. no one is pushing to take the profit out of Oxy or Zoloft... legalize it and tax the crap out of it. It's a whole new revenue stream of sin taxes AND if we're first in the region, a whole new tourist trade.

I am just trying to figure outthe difference between creating law and guidance.
What in your opinion would qualify as the MDCH overstepping the line from guidance to creating law?

Blarf · October-20-10, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

"You, or your designated primary caregiver, may grow your marihuana. There is no place in the state of Michigan to legally purchase medical marihuana."

But how can you be allowed to buy from your designated caregiver, but not be allowed to legally purchase the marijuana? That doesn't even make sense.

Arresting people because the law was written by morons doesn't really solve much. Those responsible in Oakland County didn't HAVE to do this to these people. They chose to go after these people.

I hope these responsible are voted out/removed from office.

**bailey** · October-20-10, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by lincoln8740

What? Didn't know MDCH could create laws hmmm that's news to me

Well in that case can they say-- only purple kush can be used
or brownies are good but cookies are bad?

Guidance is not the law-end of sentence, end of paragraph, end of story

Now if there was an AG opinion--you might have a small argument. I would sitll disagree but I could see your point

[color=#000000]
From the same story:

There's nothing in the act that addresses the change process if a patient wants to add a caregiver or remove a caregiver," and whether dispensaries are illegal "is nothing that we have any opinion on," Celeste Clarkson, manager of the Michigan Medical Marijuana Registry Program, said Tuesday.

Seriously Linc.... ok, MDCH guidance is NOT the law. thanks. I understand that.
Perhaps you could point out where in the MCLA there is an allowance made for anyone anywhere to sell pot? The MDCH guidance is simply and accurate statement of law. You can not buy pot in michigan legally. We dont need an AG's ruling.

While there may be vagaries on the specifics of how to change caregivers, they weren't ...according to the article...even performed in a perfunctory manner.

Oakland County Prosecutor Jessica Cooper said Tuesday that using the fake ID cards "wasn't entrapment [[because) entrapment is a legal defense that applies only in cases where someone is lured into committing an illegal act.
"They weren't lured, but instead were "so far outside the act [[it's) absurd," Cooper said.
She cited evidence of "hand-to-hand buys of copious amounts of drugs."

They were clearly running a dispensary. I understand that there is nothing clearly saying they can not, if they can fit themselves into the "reasonable compensation" box and comply with the caregiver requirements....however, they seemed to be flouting that with enough impunity to attract the sherriffs..

**bailey** · October-20-10, 04:00 PM

Originally Posted by Blarf

But how can you be allowed to buy from your designated caregiver, but not be allowed to legally purchase the marijuana? That doesn't even make sense.

Arresting people because the law was written by morons doesn't really solve much. Those responsible in Oakland County didn't HAVE to do this to these people. They chose to go after these people.

I hope these responsible are voted out/removed from office.

My money says the laws were written that vaguely because those writing them purposefully sabotaged them and were banking on the laws being challenged in what until very recently was an ultra conservative court. That may backfire.

lincoln8740 · October-20-10, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

While there may be vagaries on the specifics of how to change caregivers, they weren't ...according to the article...even performed in a perfunctory manner. They were clearly running a dispensary. I understand that there is nothing clearly saying they can not, if they can fit themselves into the "reasonable compensation" box and comply with the caregiver requirements....however, they seemed to be flouting that with enough impunity to attract the sherriffs..

I agree 100% but I still think those fake cards are a big obstacle to get around for prosecutors before one even needs to get into the caregiver compensation stuff.

also

1. I really dislike pencil pushing bureaucrats creating laws when it is not their job

2. I can't believe a prosecutors office would call charges of entrapment "absurd" -I am shocked!

Blarf · October-20-10, 09:52 PM

On another thought, isn't creating false documents in order to obtain medical marijuana a crime?

Are the police who created these fake documents going to be charged?

**ridgeabilly** · October-23-10, 07:15 PM

Bouchard would have made a swell Governor with his SWAT team cowboy mentality. I think he represents the Grand Oil Party perfectly. Up against the wall, Grandma.

9mile&seneca · October-24-10, 02:25 PM

Imagine the things that could be accomplished if our government devoted as much time energy and money on something important as they do trying to stop people from putting some substance or other into their own bodies. But no, they'd just do something stupid with the money like give morons free housing and food to make more morons. How about everybody just mind their own business and let people just keep all of their paychecks? Imagine....

**kraig** · October-25-10, 12:27 AM

The police were just doing their jobs, which is busting someone selling drugs. So what's the problem?

**1KielsonDrive** · October-25-10, 12:59 AM

Originally Posted by Blarf

I don't know, why don't you post the law so we can find out.

And if you read the article, you will see the police were turned down several times for having illegitimate paperwork, then used county computers to create legitimate looking cards, which were approved.

So when you say "only people getting arrested in these cases are the folks selling it to anyone who walks in off the street with somethign that resembles a certification card or growing a warehouse full of pot," you're either full of shit or you didn't read the article.

Blarf, just in case you haven't been informed. Ignore Bailey and his rants. I learned it just last week. He goes around in circles like a dog chasing its tail.

**Meddle** · October-25-10, 01:11 AM

Originally Posted by Blarf

On another thought, isn't creating false documents in order to obtain medical marijuana a crime?

Are the police who created these fake documents going to be charged?

For most, creating false documents is called counterfeiting or forgery.

But, hey, guess what? It's OK for them to lie to you in an interview trying to entice you into confessing, but it's not OK for you to lie to them to try and get them to go away.