A New Conversation About Light Rail: FORGET OAKLAND COUNTY

[BrushStart]

I started to suggest this in another thread but I wanted to see what people think. It seems that the biggest hurdle facing the successful development of light rail is Oakland County's opposition to it. So, my analytical mind says, why not just leave them out of it? Light rail doesn't need OC to be successful. Keep light rail in Wayne County. Build the the first stretch from the river to Grand Boulevard as planned, then stop. Next, instead of trying to force OC to let it extend north, head west. Build a line that runs down Michigan Avenue all the way to downtown Wayne. The entire corridor is urban and dense from Detroit to downtown Dearborn to Inkster to Wayne, and eventually, even to Ypsilanti and Ann Arbor. Screw Oakland County.

Create a backwards "L" shape. Consider what you would be connecting: downtown Detroit, Corktown, SW Detroit, downtown Dearborn, Greenfield Village, HF Museum, Fairlane Town Center, Ford's headquarters, then Inkster and downtown Wayne. Those hubs are even denser than the OC Woodward stretch would be. Once it was successful, OC would be begging to get the line extended past 8 Mile.

[detroitbob]

You're proposing the recreation of the streetcar/interurban system...at least the Wayne County downriver portion.

[R8RBOB]

Okay, I will bite because I lived in the Bay Area and I would use the BART to attend a number of RAIDERS games when they were good and I hated driving to San Francisco so I parked at a BART station.

I have no problem with a light-rail that extends to the west but I noticed that there was one city you didn't include: Romulus. If any rail goes west it must go through Romulus and connect to Metro Airport. If Minneapolis can have a light-rail going through MPLS/St. Paul and Chicago can have a train going to O'Hare and San Francisco can have a BART station at SFO then Detroit could have one at Metro.

[gazhekwe]

Absolutely light rail to Metro Airport and through to Ann Arbor. I bet that would get some use. I loved that we could get on a train at O'Hare and be in downtown Chicago in 40 minutes.

[Novine]

"It seems that the biggest hurdle facing the successful development of light rail is Oakland County's opposition to it."

Really? Don't you mean L. Brooks Patterson opposition to it? Most of the communities along a Woodward light-rail route [[Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills and Pontiac) would likely support such a system. The rail line would likely run in MDOT right-of-way. Patterson doesn't have control over what local communities want and he has no say in what happens in a state trunkline. All he has is a bully pulpit to attack the idea and any financing mechanisms the state might put in place to fund such a line. But he can't directly block anything.

[BShea]

The system will need an operational subsidy. I can't see Wayne County voters approving a new tax because I would guess it's likely going to be steep. Spreading the cost to Oakland and Macomb counties reduces the burden and makes it psychologically and politically more palatable.

You're also robbing the system of its potential ... there's going to be a lot more demand to go into Oakland than downriver. Oakland is where the population centers are at.

[BrushStart]

"It seems that the biggest hurdle facing the successful development of light rail is Oakland County's opposition to it."

Really? Don't you mean L. Brooks Patterson opposition to it? Most of the communities along a Woodward light-rail route [[Ferndale, Royal Oak, Birmingham, Bloomfield Hills and Pontiac) would likely support such a system. The rail line would likely run in MDOT right-of-way. Patterson doesn't have control over what local communities want and he has no say in what happens in a state trunkline. All he has is a bully pulpit to attack the idea and any financing mechanisms the state might put in place to fund such a line. But he can't directly block anything.

If that's true, then put the pressure on those OC cities by telling them, "look, either you get LBP on board, or we're leaving you in the dust. Period." Why waste years bickering with Patterson and his cronies, building a line to 8 Mile Road just for them to block the line's expansion? That's a waste. Screw them; this is business. Either get on board now and support it, or we're moving on without you. Detroit and the rest of the region shouldn't have to wait for OC's all-important seal of approval. We don't need LBP's blessing. Let those who are willing to march the region forward benefit from those efforts. Forget about those who will stall much needed progress.

[gnome]

you are proposing more line in the sand politics.

good thinking.

[DetroitDad]

Conversations about light rail have primarily centered on a transit line extending into Oakland County. If that's not possible because of outward opposition, what about leaving Oakland County out of the picture? Just forget O.C., leave them out of it. ....

I agree, and actually, this was sort of already in the plan, but the connection was going to be at the heavy rail station in New Center [[Amtrak Station). This is essentially what the plan was with the old MCS as well, only along Michigan Avenue with a light rail connection to Downtown, instead of in New Center with a connection to Downtown. Both areas have a "Downtown loop" style freeway system surrounding and supporting them as well. I think either plan may work just fine. However, I'm not sure why the station wouldn't just be closer to Downtown.

Honestly, I think we should try our hardest to get Oakland County on bored, but if they want to play like Detroit used to, I'm not sure what else to do, other than keep trying. That is what they had to do with Detroit.

[DetroitDad]

you are proposing more line in the sand politics.

good thinking.

I think he's proposing a reactionary "Plan B" while not all together abandoning talks with Oakland County, or at least, he should be.

[BrushStart]

I think he's proposing a reactionary "Plan B" while not all together abandoning talks with Oakland County, or at least, he should be.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Right now, most people seem to walk on eggshells in trying to appease Oakland County. Well, that's fine if you want to be at Patterson's mercy when it comes to getting things accomplished. We don't have the time to wait around for one man to have an epiphany about regional progress. The region only has a few cards left to play. Tough decisions have to be made, and if some people refuse to make them, the rest of us can't sit on our hands waiting for them to come around while things continue to deteriorate. I would love Oakland County to be part of the solution, but if that's not going to be possible, the rest of the region can't just stop making plans. OC has a lot of resources, but they are not the end-all/be-all of Southeast Michigan. I mean this when it comes to many issues, but I am a young person with growing wealth and I live in Wayne County, in the City of Detroit. If OC want's to keep it's position as big dog on campus, they'll have to start pushing back against me and thousands more like me. I'll leverage whatever influence I have to see that things get done.

[canuck]

What bothers me most is that the suburban wealth, the Detroit metro's GDP is very high, the stuff about the lack of money to provide for infrastructure is not missing; its a convenient illusion. OK, Detroit may be in dire straits but the region and the city will need to integrate if both are to prosper.

[DetroitDad]

Then again, we should always mistrust our initial reactions to problems. Having a "Plan B" is an insult to Oakland County in and of itself. Oakland County may just keep fighting to save face. Contingency plans should maybe be created behind closed doors, and not on an Internet forum.

If you don't have enough confidence in yourself to be able to do that, then you are wasting everybody's time.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Right now, most people seem to walk on eggshells in trying to appease Oakland County. Well, that's fine if you want to be at Patterson's mercy when it comes to getting things accomplished. We don't have the time to wait around for one man to have an epiphany about regional progress. The region only has a few cards left to play. Tough decisions have to be made, and if some people refuse to make them, the rest of us can't sit on our hands waiting for them to come around while things continue to deteriorate. I would love Oakland County to be part of the solution, but if that's not going to be possible, the rest of the region can't just stop making plans. OC has a lot of resources, but they are not the end-all/be-all of Southeast Michigan. I mean this when it comes to many issues, but I am a young person with growing wealth and I live in Wayne County, in the City of Detroit. If OC want's to keep it's position as big dog on campus, they'll have to start pushing back against me and thousands more like me. I'll leverage whatever influence I have to see that things get done.

[ridgeabilly]

Oakland County would be safer with light rail because it might get L Brook's out from behind the wheel.

[Hermod]

The system will need an operational subsidy. I can't see Wayne County voters approving a new tax because I would guess it's likely going to be steep. Spreading the cost to Oakland and Macomb counties reduces the burden and makes it psychologically and politically more palatable.

You're also robbing the system of its potential ... there's going to be a lot more demand to go into Oakland than downriver. Oakland is where the population centers are at.

Is Ann Arbor "downriver"?

[DetroitPole]

you are proposing more line in the sand politics.

good thinking.

Are you kidding? By reacting to L Brooks' intransigence? I love when suburban leaders draw lines in the sand it is conveniently ignored, while when Detroiters do all hell breaks lose.

Personally I like the plan. It offers an alternative to the train-to-nowhere. Besides, Royal Oak and Ferndale might be attractive, semi-urban, walkable communities, but they aren't that large or populous, or very wealthy.

Ann Arbor and the Airport are of much more economic value than some jerkwater Oakland county 'burbs. Besides, I don't know how attitudes skew downriver so much, but it seems like the blue-collar contingent would be more likely to do something like ride transit if it makes economic sense or be willing to spend time in the city. Oakland County is a self-supporting fiefdom. I'd be interested in seeing how many Oakland Countites never set foot in Detroit in their lives. I know the attitude is extremely prevalent.

We can leave sprawl-town in the dust and create a real urban metropolis. We don't need the benevolence of L Brooks. He'll have more room to swerve around Woodward without a train in the way, after he drowns his sorrows with the old medicine.

[Stosh]

Of course, this all depends on whether Ann Arbor actually wants to come to Detroit, and vice versa. That's another county government to deal with too. And the cost of light rail to Ann Arbor and the Airport, to match what is going in on Woodward and concievably elsewhere would be on the backs of the citizens of Detroit? Yeah, right.

[professorscott]

Ann Arbor is too far for light rail but commuter rail makes perfect sense. Actually commuter rail, to be most effective, ought to go beyond A-squared to Chelsea and Dexter, which would give it a whole new reason to exist.

Now, how can I say categorically something like "is too far for light rail"? Be careful of opinions disguised as facts What I actually am saying can be put more precisely: a light rail line from Detroit to Ann Arbor is not going to qualify for Federal new starts funding, and without that, it almost certainly can't be built.

Based on transit patterns in the metro area, a light rail line along Woodward could probably qualify for funding at least as far north as Royal Oak and possibly a bit further. Gratiot might have qualified if DDOT and SMART had worked together on it, from downtown to probably Roseville or perhaps Mount Clemens, but don't hold your breath waiting for DDOT and SMART to work together on anything whatever.

There is no other single corridor in metro Detroit where existing transit ridership is sufficient to make it likely a new starts application would be successful. So while it's nice to think about Michigan Avenue or East Jefferson or whatever, we would have to build such projects completely on our own, without Uncle Sugar helping out, so I think those are non-starters.

Now, it is correct to say that a lot of people in Oakland County, and plenty of municipal officials, would love to have improved transit. But Brooks is the County Big Kahuna, and the luau doesn't happen if he says it doesn't. And he says it doesn't.

[EastsideAl]

I've about had it with Oakland County, and especially with old George-Wallace-by-the-schoolhouse-[[or-streetcar)-door L. Brooksie [[yeah, some of us remember where you came from). He's now the main force standing in the way of regionalism in this area, and his continued obstructionist presence on the scene creates an understandable visceral protective reaction among many of us here in the city.

It really may be time to finally just say 'screw you' and make an end run around his old reactionary ass in moving this area forward. A light rail line out Michigan through Dearborn to the airport makes at least as much sense as one out to the gotbucks shopping grounds in Birmingnham. Build it up Woodward to the New Center, where it's most needed inside the city, then out to the west. Leave provisions for expansion north to 8 Mile or Oakland Cty [[and west to Ypsi and AA) and then just run with it. Then, after the ol' race baiter dies or something, and our northern neighbors come to their senses and decide to join the 21st century, we can expand the system. This is exactly what has been done elsewhere [[example from above: BART and the once-recalcitrant San Mateo County), and this area really can no longer afford to let one monkey stop the whole show.

[BrushStart]

There is no other single corridor in metro Detroit where existing transit ridership is sufficient to make it likely a new starts application would be successful. So while it's nice to think about Michigan Avenue or East Jefferson or whatever, we would have to build such projects completely on our own, without Uncle Sugar helping out, so I think those are non-starters.

That's really the heart of the issue. Is the rest of the region, namely Wayne County, willing to front the cost of light rail down Michigan Ave? Even assuming Washtenaw meets us half-way, I'm not sure what kind of money we're talking about... But here's a dose of reality that puts things in perspective: Uncle Sugar will likely never pay for light rail down Michigan, so no matter when it's built, Wayne County is likely going to have to bankroll the lion's share of the cost anyways. I always expected that connecting Detroit to the airport and A2 was part of the long-term plan, so why not just go for it? It's only going to get more expensive as time goes on and if things keep trending south economically, it's only going be less and less financially feasible. There's support for building some kind of mass transit now because the idea is fresh. If Oakland County is going to stonewall the effort to go north. Take the federal money and build the originally planned Woodward stretch, then lay the first locally paid for track on Michigan Ave. Better yet, find new private backers and give them an investment stake in the project to offset costs.

I'm not in charge, but those who are really need to consider the possibility that going north into Oakland County isn't going to occur. And, that fact alone shouldn't allow the entire effort of many decades become another embarrasing, total bust. That's what a light rail line that stops a 8 Mile will be, and OC will laugh and say, "We told you so; Detroit can't do anything right." It will reinforce the opinion that mass transit is a total waste in Southeast Michigan. A permenant setback.

[R8RBOB]

This is exactly what has been done elsewhere [[example from above: BART and the once-recalcitrant San Mateo County), and this area really can no longer afford to let one monkey stop the whole show.

Just to add on this: When the plans for BART were being designed, the plan was to create a track that would take the rail through several counties. [[Santa Clara, San Mateo, San Francisco, Marin, Contra Costa and Alameda) Santa Clara Co. or San Jose didn't want BART because the fear was that the residents of San Josie would travel north to "The City" and shun San Jose. As a result, the county of Santa Clara was omitted from BART and BART was built from San Mateo Co through San Francisco, under the bay to Alameda and to Contra Costa. Marin opted out as well. The point being was that the region was not going to allow Santa Clara to shit on a project that is a way of life in the Bay Area. If Detroit has an opportunity to make this happen and OC don't want to get on board then so be it.

[Hermod]

Just to add on this: When the plans for BART were being designed, the plan was to create a track that would take the rail through several counties. [[Santa Clara, San Mateo, San Francisco, Marin, Contra Costa and Alameda) Santa Clara Co. or San Jose didn't want BART because the fear was that the residents of San Josie would travel north to "The City" and shun San Jose. As a result, the county of Santa Clara was omitted from BART and BART was built from San Mateo Co through San Francisco, under the bay to Alameda and to Contra Costa. Marin opted out as well. The point being was that the region was not going to allow Santa Clara to shit on a project that is a way of life in the Bay Area. If Detroit has an opportunity to make this happen and OC don't want to get on board then so be it.

Similar thing in DC. The folks in Annandale [[southwest) didn't want DC metro. As a result, a line runs to the south by Springfield and a line runs to the west by Vienna. The whole southwest quadrant is unserved. If you look carefully, you can still see the beginning of the tunnel that was to branch off to the southwest.

[R8RBOB]

Similar thing in DC. The folks in Annandale [[southwest) didn't want DC metro. As a result, a line runs to the south by Springfield and a line runs to the west by Vienna. The whole southwest quadrant is unserved. If you look carefully, you can still see the beginning of the tunnel that was to branch off to the southwest.

Funny how there is always a party pooper who shows up to try to ruin it for everyone. In cases like the area in Virginia, politics is always the reason why nothing gets done. As in the case of San Jose, their fear was that people would travel frequently to San Francisco and spend their money there too if there was a rail system that could there. So, in the end Santa Clara residents would have to drive either to Colma or Fremont to catch the BART to either Oakland or San Francisco. Santa Clara did built a light-rail but it serve primary San Jose and it does not connect to BART.

[Novine]

Again, why are so many of you giving L. Brooks Patterson so much control over the decision whether light rail goes into Oakland County or not? What part of that decision involves the county government? Or county dollars? None of it from what I can see.

[professorscott]

That's easy. The project requires local matching funds, so to extend it into Oakland County, some local entity has to participate financially. Now, we're talking a lot of money here, so to put a project together, it's critical that the county government participate.

Or, rather than believing me about this, ask any municipal official in a city that wants the extension and would benefit from it - oh, I don't know, Royal Oak, Ferndale maybe - and ask him or her whether it can be done with LBP opposed to it.