Libertarians bash light rail

**mogo** · October-14-10, 12:49 PM

Hmm. Reason TV? Sounds Orwellian. Yep, it is.

If I were to try and convince people that my ideas are correct, I don't think I'd start out with a "journalist" who has been accused of plagiarism several times over. Can anyone back up his claim about the ambulances?

**Detroitnerd** · October-14-10, 12:57 PM

Of course, Reason magazine represents the Republican wing of the Libertarian party.

DetroitPole · October-14-10, 01:15 PM

Originally Posted by mogo

Hmm. Reason TV? Sounds Orwellian. Yep, it is.

If I were to try and convince people that my ideas are correct, I don't think I'd start out with a "journalist" who has been accused of plagiarism several times over. Can anyone back up his claim about the ambulances?

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza? Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it. Where is the majority of the region supposed to board it? Why would they board at 8 mile to ride it downtown[[and leave their cars there to get broken into) when they could just fly down Woodward effortlessly and get there in 10 minutes? Are people downtown going to ride it to Forman Mills in Highland Park? Maybe the Hotel Normandy? You Buy We Fry? The vacant fairgrounds?

It is nothing more than elongated People Mover as it stands running from Hart Plaza to 8 Mile. It has to be run to Royal Oak at least. Unfortunately L Brooks called it a luxury and stonewalled any attempts to get it into Oakland county. Then on the other side you have the crew aforementioned in the article that think its going to be some magic bullet, simply connecting poor people to downtown possibly faster.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

**BrushStart** · October-14-10, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza? Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it. Where is the majority of the region supposed to board it? Why would they board at 8 mile to ride it downtown[[and leave their cars there to get broken into) when they could just fly down Woodward effortlessly and get there in 10 minutes? Are people downtown going to ride it to Forman Mills in Highland Park? Maybe the Hotel Normandy? You Buy We Fry? The vacant fairgrounds?

It is nothing more than elongated People Mover as it stands running from Hart Plaza to 8 Mile. It has to be run to Royal Oak at least. Unfortunately L Brooks called it a luxury and stonewalled any attempts to get it into Oakland county. Then on the other side you have the crew aforementioned in the article that think its going to be some magic bullet, simply connecting poor people to downtown possibly faster.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

Let me put it to you this way... If this region forecloses on building mass transit, I'm leaving. Serisously, I'm out of here.

And, I think I speak for many more than myself.

**Detroitnerd** · October-14-10, 01:25 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

When they first built Grand Boulevard, Detroiters asked much the same thing: "Why build that road out there in the middle of nowhere?" Within 30 years, though, the Boulevard, with its roadway and streetcar, helped anchor General Motors, the Fisher Building, the Packard Plant. What we're really talking about here is RESTORING light rail service. And light rail drives development.

After all, if we were all bemoaning building roads to nowhere in the 1950s, there'd have been no suburbs as we know them ...

**BrushStart** · October-14-10, 01:26 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

After all, if we were all bemoaning building roads to nowhere in the 1950s, there'd have been no suburbs as we know them ...

Someone should have been bemoaning.

**Hermod** · October-14-10, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by BrushStart

Someone should have been bemoaning.

The Oakland and Macomb County suburbs were booming long before the expressways. The radial roads were the original post roads. They were widened and paved as traffic demanded. The N-S and E-W roads in the counties were widened and paved as traffic demanded. There was no "road to nowhere" into the counties.

**Detroitnerd** · October-14-10, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The Oakland and Macomb County suburbs were booming long before the expressways. The radial roads were the original post roads. They were widened and paved as traffic demanded. The N-S and E-W roads in the counties were widened and paved as traffic demanded. There was no "road to nowhere" into the counties.

I already thought of you chiming in, Hermod. That's why I wrote "suburbs as we know them." Satisfied?

**JBMcB** · October-14-10, 01:36 PM

The other good point they make is that this is $500,000,000 that can be much better spent in other areas. Such as the bankrupt educational system, and underfunded fire and police departments.

The video isn't saying that light rail is a bad idea, just that it isn't the best use of money right now. I happen to agree.

**mwilbert** · October-14-10, 01:38 PM

There are all these buses that run down Woodward now that go past New Center. I have to think that some of the people on those buses would use the light rail, even if there were no new transit riders if there were light rail, which seems pretty unlikely.

**Johnlodge** · October-14-10, 01:39 PM

If it makes it to 8 mile, there will be reason to hope it will keep going.

http://www.ferndale-mi.com/governmen...namendment.htm

**Detroitnerd** · October-14-10, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

The other good point they make is that this is $500,000,000 that can be much better spent in other areas. Such as the bankrupt educational system, and underfunded fire and police departments.

The video isn't saying that light rail is a bad idea, just that it isn't the best use of money right now. I happen to agree.

Yeah, except that the purest of the Reason-style libertarians don't believe in spending any public money on education or even fire and police.

**mwilbert** · October-14-10, 01:45 PM

The other good point they make is that this is $500,000,000 that can be much better spent in other areas. Such as the bankrupt educational system, and underfunded fire and police departments.

1. Please not the educational system.
2. This wouldn't just be a transfer from one purpose to another, but a transfer from capital spending to operating budget. The two really shouldn't be fungible.
3. The money isn't available for other purposes. No doubt Reason would be happy to have the federal government operate completely differently than it actually does, but given the way it actually works, this seems to me a reasonable way to spend transportation money

**BrushStart** · October-14-10, 01:49 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

The other good point they make is that this is $500,000,000 that can be much better spent in other areas. Such as the bankrupt educational system, and underfunded fire and police departments.

The video isn't saying that light rail is a bad idea, just that it isn't the best use of money right now. I happen to agree.

If it was 500 million from the City's empty coffers, I would be inclined to agree, but, it's not. It's private money coupled with federal transit funding. Use it, or lose it.

On top of that, throwing that kind of money at city services is a short-sighted usage. Once the money is used up, things will go right back to the way they are. Instead, use the money to build something meaningful and lasting that will attract investment and residents. Those people will pay taxes and allow the city to add police, fire, and schools.

This whole light rail debate is as ridiculous as the 2nd bridge to Canada debacle. Everyone is complaining, yet it costs them nothing. Here, light rail is basically being given to the residents of Michigan, yet people want to crap all over it. Same with the bridge, either Matty pays for it or the nation of Canada pays for it, so what's the problem? Just give the thumbs up and get something awesome for free. It's unbelievable.

**R8RBOB** · October-14-10, 01:56 PM

I would look at the light rail project like a building a old college football stadium. Let me use the "Big House" as an example. When Michigan Stadium was built, it was a hole in a ground. It was small because there no great demand to put tens of thousands in the stadium to watch Michigan football. As the years went by and the teams got better more and more fans went to the stadium and the university administrators realized that the stadium was too small for their fanbase so they started adding on to the stadium and they added on some more and they are still adding on to this very day.

My point is projects like the light rail must start off small because no one knows the future that awaits Detroit and the metro area but to make excuses why not to do it is the reason why the region is in the shape it is now. If they build the rail to the SF grounds and the rail catches on then perhaps L. Brooks or the next executive might want it going through RO but there has to be start but to call it a train to nowhere is a product of the hate that divides Detroit from its suburbs.

**iheartthed** · October-14-10, 02:19 PM

Wow, check out this logic...

"You simply cannot have a Manhattan without the subway.

Okay, I'm following.

But it's not the subway that built Manhattan,

Wait, who built it then?

Manhattan built the subway.

How did Manhattan build the subway if you can't have Manhattan without the subway?! Did Manhattan suddenly materialize and then hurried up and built the subway before it disintegrated again? Because as he said...

You simply cannot have a Manhattan without the subway.

Then he goes on to say...

Light rail is not going to build Detroit."

So Detroit has to build light rail? Hey Detroit, phone up Manhattan and ask how they did that little magic trick where she materialized and built the subway before she rotted out! That's gotta be the answer.

**MCP-001** · October-14-10, 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by mogo

Hmm. Reason TV? Sounds Orwellian. Yep, it is.

If I were to try and convince people that my ideas are correct, I don't think I'd start out with a "journalist" who has been accused of plagiarism several times over. Can anyone back up his claim about the ambulances?

The story was simultaneously carried by Channel 2 and The Detroit News.

Yahoo News also picked it up as well

People keep forgetting that DETROIT HAD A LIGHT RAIL SYSTEM UNTIL THE 1950'S.

It failed.

[[Guess what, part of it also went up Woodward).

Even assuming that this project does get off the ground and is built, who will they transport? Where will they take them? Work? Shopping? Why won't they prefer to use the freeways?

With declining population and revenue [[Rob Bobb of all people is asking for a $332-million handout), not only is the People Mover analogy correct, but because of the questions above, light rail will never succeed.

And when politicians pull out the "We must educate the public" argument [[2:43) hold on to your wallets!

This means that they don;t have a clue either.

$500-million can be spent on more important matters than making a few people happy.

**BrushStart** · October-14-10, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by MCP-001

$500-million can be spent on more important matters than making a few people happy.

No, it can't. Your point is moot. The money may only be used in the way the two financiers paying for this project say it can be used. Those two financiers are the private investors and the fed. If they want to build a rail line it doesn't matter how anyone else thinks the money should be spent. There's no point even debating it. All the negative news reporting in the world isn't going to redirect the money towards other things. It will only stir up more "Not In My Backyard!" nonsense from people who are too blind to notice that their state is circling the drain.

**manualshift** · October-14-10, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Most of the article is nonsense, but the logistical point they hit on the head is dead on: it will be a train to nowhere.

Where the hell are people going to take this thing to if it runs to 8 mile from Hart Plaza? Other than the cultural center to downtown, there is no reason for the average person to ride it. Where is the majority of the region supposed to board it? Why would they board at 8 mile to ride it downtown[[and leave their cars there to get broken into) when they could just fly down Woodward effortlessly and get there in 10 minutes? Are people downtown going to ride it to Forman Mills in Highland Park? Maybe the Hotel Normandy? You Buy We Fry? The vacant fairgrounds?

It is nothing more than elongated People Mover as it stands running from Hart Plaza to 8 Mile. It has to be run to Royal Oak at least. Unfortunately L Brooks called it a luxury and stonewalled any attempts to get it into Oakland county. Then on the other side you have the crew aforementioned in the article that think its going to be some magic bullet, simply connecting poor people to downtown possibly faster.

Sometimes things are so stupid around here I just want to scream.

Area around the state fair has been proposed as a site for a major shopping center.

The stops on a light rail line will be fixed. People will create and improve business around these stops to take advantage of all types of people that choose to ride the rail.

Also, while this might stop at eight mile now, it does have to start somewhere. While you might not believe it a number of people take smart bus downtown and out of town on Woodward.

**ghettopalmetto** · October-14-10, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Hermod

The Oakland and Macomb County suburbs were booming long before the expressways. The radial roads were the original post roads. They were widened and paved as traffic demanded. The N-S and E-W roads in the counties were widened and paved as traffic demanded. There was no "road to nowhere" into the counties.

Yeah, it's a good thing they never built the M-53 or M-59 freeways!

Riddle me this: If you don't build any roads to nowhere, then how does the demand happen? I mean, do subdivisions and strip malls always sprout up before the roads, or just some of the time?

**R8RBOB** · October-14-10, 03:04 PM

Originally Posted by MCP-001

The story was simultaneously carried by Channel 2 and The Detroit News.

Yahoo News also picked it up as well

People keep forgetting that DETROIT HAD A LIGHT RAIL SYSTEM UNTIL THE 1950'S.

It failed.

[[Guess what, part of it also went up Woodward).

Even assuming that this project does get off the ground and is built, who will they transport? Where will they take them? Work? Shopping? Why won't they prefer to use the freeways?

With declining population and revenue [[Rob Bobb of all people is asking for a $332-million handout), not only is the People Mover analogy correct, but because of the questions above, light rail will never succeed.

And when politicians pull out the "We must educate the public" argument [[2:43) hold on to your wallets!

This means that they don;t have a clue either.

$500-million can be spent on more important matters than making a few people happy.

Oh look, it's the Master Control Program.... MCP, your comments sure come off robotic. You believe that since it failed before, it will fail again. If the US had that attitude man would have never made it to the moon. And you surely don't understand the way money is doled out. If 500,000,000 is marked for transportation then the money has to be used for that purpose. You can't use the money for let's say emergency services. The money is either going to used by Detroit or another city would be happy to take it. Now the money by the Ilitches, Penske well that's a different story but it takes money to get money.

**iheartthed** · October-14-10, 03:18 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

You believe that since it failed before, it will fail again.

Actually, it didn't fail before. It was discontinued in favor of a more expensive and less efficient system that is still currently in use today.

**R8RBOB** · October-14-10, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Actually, it didn't fail before. It was discontinued in favor of a more expensive and less efficient system that is still currently in use today.

I know it didn't fail but the previous poster wanted to insert "hyperbole" to make the point that it would not be a good idea.

**gnome** · October-14-10, 03:22 PM

It seems that the considered opinion here is that Light rail from Hart Plaza to 8 mile will be great.

Fine. I believe you feel that way.

However, whom here is going to open a business on Woodward, or buy a house/condo on the route? How will you use the rail line every day?

I must confess, I look forward to the Light Rail, but I'll use it just like I use the People Mover. Every so often, once in a while. I like the PM. But they don't make any money off of me. How about you?

How will you use Light Rail?

**canuck** · October-14-10, 03:26 PM

Yep, MCP

The reason it might not be worth the effort is that the city is so disintegrated that the value of installing light rail in Detroit proper is debatable. There is certainly good reason to extend suburban rail to the suburbs but Detroit should retain the central pivot from which lines start. Subway tunnels are too expensive a proposition for the region. As for freeway use favored over rail, well if you look at the way Detroit continues to encourage building parking as opposed to park and ride as it exists in all major metros, it is simply because there is no mass transit to speak of. People will use it because it is a hell of a lot cheaper to commute in public transit than in a car. And chances are it will get a lot cheaper with energy scarcity.