What will it take to reinvigorate Downtown?

Stosh · October-12-10, 02:08 PM

I've said all along that the key to any revival of Downtown hinges upon the energy efficiency of it's buildings. Here's a great example of retrofitting a sky scraper for energy eficiency, the Empire State building.

http://www.popsci.com/science/articl...nic-skyscraper

Image gallery of the window retrofits:
http://www.popsci.com/technology/gal...ate-goes-green

**Detroitnerd** · October-12-10, 02:20 PM

Aren't we supposed to do this the Cass Tech way? Knock down a building that's been there for decades so we can build a "green" building -- expending 10 times the energy of simply retrofitting the old building? How we s'posed to maintain our city motto: "Tear that schitt down!"

**Mind field** · October-12-10, 03:33 PM

It's a good thing to make every building more energy efficient, but what does that have to do with "reinvigorating" downtown? When i think of that concept i think of streets filled with people on a daily basis, not just when there is an event going on.

Stosh · October-12-10, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Mind field

It's a good thing to make every building more energy efficient, but what does that have to do with "reinvigorating" downtown? When i think of that concept i think of streets filled with people on a daily basis, not just when there is an event going on.

Where are these people coming from? Or going to? Empty, functionally obsolete buildings do nothing for the functionality of a city. Reinvigorating existing buildings, or, as DN said, tear that schitt down.

**JBMcB** · October-12-10, 04:42 PM

1. Get rid of city income tax

2. Streamline regulations, make pulling permits and getting building inspections as easy as possible, make zoning rules easy and transparent as well

3. Foreclose on any properties delinquent on their property tax, auction the parcels off to the highest bidder, give the owner a two year property tax abatement if they promptly redevelop the land into a habitable commercial/industrial/residential building

You don't spur development by adding regulations and cost.

**Mind field** · October-12-10, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Where are these people coming from? Or going to? Empty, functionally obsolete buildings do nothing for the functionality of a city. Reinvigorating existing buildings, or, as DN said, tear that schitt down.

Well duh. Your original post just spoke about energy efficiency. I'm sure rehabs of large vacant structures would include upgrades of windows, insulation and other finishes to make them much more energy efficient. I still do not understand the correlation in your original post between a downtown revival and the energy efficiency of that downtown's buildings. I know energy efficiency of downtown buildings is not on the list of reasons people move into the city.

Stosh · October-12-10, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by Mind field

Well duh. Your original post just spoke about energy efficiency. I'm sure rehabs of large vacant structures would include upgrades of windows, insulation and other finishes to make them much more energy efficient. I still do not understand the correlation in your original post between a downtown revival and the energy efficiency of that downtown's buildings. I know energy efficiency of downtown buildings is not on the list of reasons people move into the city.

You can't see the reason why there are empty buildings downtown now? They are functionally obsolete. Fix them, fix downtown.

**ghettopalmetto** · October-12-10, 05:59 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

You can't see the reason why there are empty buildings downtown now? They are functionally obsolete. Fix them, fix downtown.

So you fix up buildings downtown that are "functionally obsolete" [[based on your own metric). What does that have to do with energy efficiency?

More importantly, who pays the rent for these spaces? You have to have PEOPLE to fill the buildings. The most energy efficient shell isn't going to do a damned thing.

DC48080 · October-12-10, 06:09 PM

What will it take to invigorate downtown?

Four things from a long list:

Do away with the city income tax. [[A big disincentive to locate in Detroit.)

Do away with the utility tax. [[Another unnecessary expense for a business.)

Get a handle on the crime situation. [[No matter how bad it really is, it is perceived as horrible to most folks outside of Detroit.)

Improve the overall image of Detroit, i.e: corruption, crime, third world educational system, ineffectual and uncaring city government. [[Yes, I know to improve the image you must improve the reality.)

It isn't just because our older building stock is not tip-top in energy efficiency that business do not want to locate downtown.

**Ltdave** · October-12-10, 06:46 PM

You don't spur development by adding regulations and cost.

you do THINK so though, if youre in the Obamacamp...

i spent a very exciting 4 days in NYC over labor day...

i couldnt tell you ONE building that was 'green' but i DID see a MILLION PEOPLE down there doing all sorts of shopping and milling around as well as going to the theatre, eating, drinking, shopping, milling around. yes i repeated myself on purpose...

there MUST be something for people to do, and there MUST be someplace for the people to live. i dont think the majority of people i saw who were NOT touristy looking [[cameras and gawking about) were visiting from the suburbs, they probably LIVED nearby...

i know supermarket/grocery store was mentioned in another thread once. that would help alot...

but as mentioned, the infernal income tax is a deal breaker for many many people...

Toolbox · October-12-10, 06:49 PM

Build a new baseball stadium.....

and when that did not work

Build a new football arena...

and when that did not work

Host a Superbowl....

and when that did not work

Host an Allstar game...

and when that did not work

Host the Final Four...

and when that did not work

Host the Frozen Four...

and on and on and on...

**gnome** · October-12-10, 06:57 PM

We all know a guy here who is renovating a building in Detroit. He has been doing great work. Had to pay $1,000 permit fee to fix a building he bought from the city for $1. A crack den that was a danger to all and he decided to invest his money into making it nice.

So the permit to rehab is $1K, a full $700 more than a permit in Birmingham, but get this; the place is gutted to the studs, it is all rewired [[and inspected) but he is not allowed to insulate the outside walls until the furnace is installed.

The city is making him install a furnace and run it in an uninsulated building because they say so.

Bearinabox · October-12-10, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Ltdave

but as mentioned, the infernal income tax is a deal breaker for many many people...

If by "many, many people" you mean "people who live in the suburbs, work in the city, and like to complain about everything Detroit does," and by "deal-breaker" you mean "they complain more about working in Detroit than they would otherwise," then yeah, pretty much.

**gnome** · October-12-10, 07:14 PM

No, not those people, he meant the 1 million plus people who have fled the city since Jerry Cavenaugh was able to get the income tax passed.

**Jimaz** · October-12-10, 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by Ltdave

you do THINK so though, if youre in the Obamacamp....

Which is relevant because NYC is so intensely anti-Obama.

Wait. What?

Bearinabox · October-12-10, 07:19 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

No, not those people, he meant the 1 million plus people who have fled the city since Jerry Cavenaugh was able to get the income tax passed.

Correlation/causation. What about the 250,000-odd people who fled the city before the income tax was passed?

**mikefmich** · October-12-10, 07:54 PM

The Second Coming.....

You heard it here first.

DetroitDad · October-12-10, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh

Where are these people coming from? Or going to? Empty, functionally obsolete buildings do nothing for the functionality of a city. Reinvigorating existing buildings, or, as DN said, tear that schitt down.

Here he goes again with that ol' sustainability topic again.

**gnome** · October-12-10, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

What about the 250,000-odd people who fled the city before the income tax was passed?

Didn't you hear? They were all down in the saltmines plotting the downfall of a once great city.

Be serious.

Stosh · October-12-10, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by ghettopalmetto

So you fix up buildings downtown that are "functionally obsolete" [[based on your own metric). What does that have to do with energy efficiency?

More importantly, who pays the rent for these spaces? You have to have PEOPLE to fill the buildings. The most energy efficient shell isn't going to do a damned thing.

Companies pay rent for those spaces. They are the ones that pay the bills, not the "people" as you call them. Energy efficiency is a factor in deciding to locate, or relocate a company. It's a fixed cost. If you read the article, you will see that the Empire State building will save over 4 million dollars by doing that renovation, a payback of a little over 3 years. Imagine then, that a developer can rehabilitate the skyscrapers downtown, which will be able to be marketed to companies that will be "bottom line" aware in terms of energy use.

They are functionally obsolete as they are today. If rehabbed with a "green" focus, they can be occupied. As it is now, they never will. You have to have something that attracts the business community, something BESIDES the obvious tax credits which everyone and their brother in the country are pimping.

Stosh · October-12-10, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitDad

Here he goes again with that ol' sustainability topic again.

Just the level of inanity that I would have expected. Thanks for reinforcing my beliefs.

**English** · October-12-10, 09:41 PM

Patience -- reinvigoration is coming.

**agirlintheD** · October-12-10, 09:45 PM

More people might help.

DetroitDad · October-12-10, 09:53 PM

Yes Stosh, just wright off the opposition. Stosh, I think your view that both Downtown Detroit skyscrapers and suburbia can be saved simultaneously, is a bit Pollyanna-ish.

Remember Stosh;

If this forum was all about positives, it would be a bland and more than likely depopulated place. I know of a couple of forums that concentrate on the positives only, and are heavily moderated to keep them that way.

Biggest problem that I've seen here is the omnipresent hipster db's that seem to think they have all the answers, but don't do squat about it.

Just the level of inanity that I would have expected. Thanks for reinforcing my beliefs.

All that was posted after Stosh called DetroitYES posters "Pollyannas", for expressing their positive views. It looks like maybe Pollyanna grew up and left someone behind...

[[Hoping Stosh has a sense of humor).

**professorscott** · October-12-10, 10:36 PM

Downtown Detroit doesn't function like a working downtown because it isn't built like a working downtown. The whole concept of a big-city CBD is to concentrate people, or if you like to take a commodity view of people, to concentrate talent.

Detroit, as part of its whole-hearted embrace of the auto culture, began to insist [[mid last century) that we make room for all the cars people would need, even downtown. So unlike almost every other big-city downtown on Earth, in downtown Detroit parking is relatively plentiful, and cheap.

[[Quick note: anyone who would like to argue "cheap", I invite you to take your car to Detroit, Chicago, Boston or Toronto and park downtown all day. Report back with your findings.)

Having done this, and after the depression aggressively ripping out the former transit system, we built a downtown that was car-friendly and dispersed: that is, no longer a downtown at all. And then the biggest downtown "revitalization" project, the Ren Cen, was a fucking island separate from everything else, and again with a gazillion square feet of parking, further breaking up downtown.

So the fact is, Detroit hasn't any downtown whatsoever. Build one; maybe it will function like most do.