It begins in Tennessee.... Detroit after that?

**Whitehouse** · October-04-10, 04:08 PM

This is most disturbing in many ways. I picked this up from Littlegreenfootballs.

The conservative vision of utopia [[touted by many of the GOP
candidates in this election) is a society in which most government agencies are privatized, and unfettered free enterprise reigns supreme.
Here’s a look at what that vision means in the real world: Tennessee County’s Subscription-Based Firefighters Watch As Family Home Burns Down.

Imagine your home catches fire but the local fire department won’t respond, then watches it burn. That’s exactly what happened to a local family tonight. A local neighborhood is furious after firefighters watched as an Obion County, Tennessee, home burned to the ground.
The homeowner, Gene Cranick, said he offered to pay whatever it would take for firefighters to put out the flames, but was told it was too late. They wouldn’t do anything to stop his house from burning. Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay. The mayor said if homeowners don’t pay, they’re out of luck. […]

We're outraged inhere over the conduct of Assistant DA Shervill, but if this is going to be the policy of the DFD all hell is going to break loose. Lifes are in danger if the fire department will not act in a fire cause you didn't subscribe to them. What's the use of a fire insurance? If I was living there, my house caught fire and the fire department would extinguish the flames, I would sue them into oblivion.

It hans't come this way in Detroit. The DFD is still a force you can reckon on and admire. Let's hope it stays this way.

**Detroitnerd** · October-04-10, 04:12 PM

What are you talking about? You want fires put out for FREE? What a soaring sense of entitlement you have! We're just supposed to provide everybody with services regardless of how much money they contribute? That's preposterous ... it's, its ... **HEAD EXPLODES**

No doubt some nutballs on this forum would say as much...

**iheartthed** · October-04-10, 04:13 PM

Is that even legal? What would have happened if someone were trapped inside? Would the firefighters have stood by and let that person die?

**justanotherboy** · October-04-10, 04:22 PM

"Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay."

The homeowner received exactly what he paid for. I don't feel sorry for him.

**Detroitnerd** · October-04-10, 04:29 PM

Originally Posted by justanotherboy

"Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay."

The homeowner received exactly what he paid for. I don't feel sorry for him.

Yeah, let's get rid of that "Government by the people, of the people and for the people" shit and turn government into a system where you pay private companies for everything and if you didn't read the fine print, then fuck you. Great idea. I think you should move there right away.

**Goose** · October-04-10, 04:43 PM

i guess they figured their home wasn't worth $75.... you can't buy auto insurance the day after you get in an accident.....

**dtowncitylover** · October-04-10, 04:45 PM

I feel sorry that his house burned down, not sorry that the firefighters couldn't help. Those were the rules. However, it is a flawed system where a city or county can't provide the basics, like public safety, police, library, school, garbage, streetscape, etc for its citizens.

**iheartthed** · October-04-10, 04:45 PM

^Speaking of, I wonder what the insurance rates there are like.

**gazhekwe** · October-04-10, 05:23 PM

Tennessee is one of those no tax states. See what you get when you don't want to pay for government services? Will we learn our lesson? Doubt it.

**gibran** · October-04-10, 05:29 PM

what about the values of to serve and protect..only if you got yours? how flawed is this..and it is the same folks that enspouse this logic that complain or hide behind the morals platform...Their battle cry of time to take back our country...from whom? The greed of corporations...I hope.

you can't stand behind a morals platform and then act immorally.

**jiminnm** · October-04-10, 05:31 PM

I have relatives that live in the city of South Fulton and checked into this.

It seems that Mr. Cranick lives outside the city of South Fulton in a nonincorporated area. The city of South Fulton offers the $75 service to those who live outside the city and would otherwise have no fire service. Cranick apparently elected not to pay and the city is not required to provides city services to those outside the city.

Bearinabox · October-04-10, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by justanotherboy

"Each year, Obion County residents must pay $75 if they want fire protection from the city of South Fulton. But the Cranicks did not pay."

The homeowner received exactly what he paid for. I don't feel sorry for him.

The point isn't that the homeowner is free from fault. Okay, he was irresponsible and made a dumb choice, but right now his house is burning down, and you're sitting out front in a fire truck. Basic human decency dictates that you put his fucking house out and save the lecture for later. What's that you say? Nobody would pay for fire protection if the people who didn't pay got protection too? Well, that's kind of why most places don't run their fire departments this way. It's not a workable system.

Imagine if this happened in some inner-city neighborhood like Mexicantown with 30x100 lots and houses built out of matchwood, and the fire department only responded once the fire spread to neighboring properties whose owners had paid the fee. By then, the fire would be completely out of control, and the neighbors who did the responsible thing and paid the 75 bucks would stand a good chance of losing their houses because one guy in the middle of the block didn't pay. Now imagine that the homeowner who didn't pay lived outside the neighborhood, and his tenants lost their home because he cheaped out. This system creates a whole host of problems that could be solved by just raising taxes and creating a normal fire department like every civilized society on the face of the planet. I just don't get it.

**iheartthed** · October-04-10, 05:55 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

The point isn't that the homeowner is free from fault. Okay, he was irresponsible and made a dumb choice, but right now his house is burning down, and you're sitting out front in a fire truck. Basic human decency dictates that you put his fucking house out and save the lecture for later. What's that you say? Nobody would pay for fire protection if the people who didn't pay got protection too? Well, that's kind of why most places don't run their fire departments this way. It's not a workable system.

I've heard of situations where the services were privatized and the resident didn't pay the fee. But the emergency services workers would still be required to provide help to the person, it's just that they would be slapped with a huge fine after the fact. That seems the most logical way to go. I can't believe it's even legal for the firefighters in this town to stand by and watch a family's house burn to the ground. That would seem to cost the township more than just putting the fire out...

**chief1356** · October-04-10, 06:10 PM

how many homeowners decided to pay the city of south fulton for protection the day after?
other considerations; why didn't homeowners start a volunteer department? should the residents of south fulton be the only people to pay for a fire dept. when it also protects non-residents?

**wolverine** · October-04-10, 06:13 PM

I can't imagine it being legal. It's the governments responsibility to protect the health and safety of its citizens. By definition, that goes beyond the damaged home but the property around it. If they let the house burn to the ground, they could have also allowed the fire to get out of control.

Paying or not paying the fee is completely out of the debate here. A government service failed to perform a duty that they are required to do. The emergency was delegated to this department to handle the situation regardless of where the resident lives as opposed to a countywide emergency response service. Slow response is one thing, showing up on site and not putting out a fire is completely different. Heck, they'd could bill the owners $75 later if they choose. This can't be right. I know people who live in unincorporated areas yet still receive service from nearby communities. They pay no fees yet still get coverage. The remainder of services are covered by the county. Or in some cases, I would guess that the county would reimburse the municipality for its services.

Oh wow:

The fire reportedly continued for hours “because garden hoses just wouldn’t put it out. It wasn’t until that fire spread to a neighbor' property , that anyone would respond” — only because the neighbor had paid the fee.

Still could have been worse.

**chief1356** · October-04-10, 06:29 PM

what "government" is responsible for this service, the house was in an unincorporated area.If you could pay the day after the fire how many people would join prior to a fire- insurance does not work that way, who would buy auto insurance before they had an accident- so if i do not have a fire in a year i am not expected to contribute for the service that was provided to the entire community? Ain't no such thing as a free lunch- someone is paying for those fire engines, fire houses, and firemen

**Jimaz** · October-04-10, 07:23 PM

From The Telegraph [[UK):

Later the same day, the couple's 44-year-old son was arrested and charged with aggravated assault, after allegedly punching the local fire chief....

About three hours after the fire began, Mr Cranick's son Timothy allegedly arrived at the South Fulton fire station and asked for Mr Wilds, the fire chief.

It is alleged that when Mr Wilds came forward and asked if he could help, Mr Cranick punched him. "He just cold-cocked him," Mr Crocker said.

Mr Cranick allegedly had to be pulled off Mr Wilds by other firefighters, after having knocked him to the ground. The 44-year-old is said to have been taken to hospital after injuring his hand committing the alleged assault.

Mr Wilds was said by officials to be "doing OK". The Cranicks are temporarily staying in a mobile home.

Given the known nature of fire to spread, isn't it simple common sense to extinguish it as early as possible? When does it become negligence to wait around and, well, neglect it?

Who's bright idea was it in the first place to make this $75 fee optional? Fire doesn't stop to check whether fees were paid before it jumps property lines. Why should firefighters? What if you paid your $75 and your house burned down anyway because they wouldn't extinguish your neighbor's fire?

FWIW, Google Earth puts the Cranick farm at less than a mile from South Fulton's city limits.

**ghettopalmetto** · October-04-10, 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by chief1356

what "government" is responsible for this service, the house was in an unincorporated area.

Ahem, that would be the COUNTY government.

lincoln8740 · October-04-10, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Yeah, let's get rid of that "Government by the people, of the people and for the people" shit and turn government into a system where you pay private companies for everything and if you didn't read the fine print, then fuck you. Great idea. I think you should move there right away.

It would be worse if you paid taxes for years and then had to call the EMS for medical assistance and they didn't show.. that would never happen in a major American city

oh wait......

**wolverine** · October-04-10, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by chief1356

what "government" is responsible for this service, the house was in an unincorporated area.If you could pay the day after the fire how many people would join prior to a fire- insurance does not work that way, who would buy auto insurance before they had an accident- so if i do not have a fire in a year i am not expected to contribute for the service that was provided to the entire community? Ain't no such thing as a free lunch- someone is paying for those fire engines, fire houses, and firemen

The county....in fact there are many communities here surrounding Chicago that are still unincorporated. People are serviced by county fire and public safety. However, surrounding communities still respond even though residents may not be taxpayers to those communities. I used to see similar circumstances back in Michigan when city AND township fire departments would respond to a blaze

**Goose** · October-04-10, 08:04 PM

stop with the excuses...

fact is they were offered fire protection for the known area outside the cities coverage area for a very modest price of $75 and they declined....

you whiners are probably the same people that complain about health insurance being to expensive but are able to have the latest iphone and watch cable TV on a 60 inch LCD....

sometimes you have to pay to receive benefits, i know this is hard to grasp by you bleeding socialist at heart liberals, but services don't grow on trees, it cost MONEY

Bearinabox · October-04-10, 08:10 PM

Originally Posted by Goose

sometimes you have to pay to receive benefits, i know this is hard to grasp by you bleeding socialist at heart liberals, but services don't grow on trees, it cost MONEY

This is exactly why fire protection should be funded through adequate taxes instead of optional user fees. I think the libertarian/teabagger types are the ones who have a problem understanding that services cost money.

**gazhekwe** · October-04-10, 08:14 PM

^^Exactly. Community services need community based funding, ie taxes, to support them.

**Goose** · October-04-10, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

This is exactly why fire protection should be funded through adequate taxes instead of optional user fees. I think the libertarian/teabagger types are the ones who have a problem understanding that services cost money.

really, isn't the $75 actually a defacto tax? did they not know they were not covered? why do responsible people have to work to protect the stupid people [[and I'm not refering to handicapped), I mean stupid...

she offered to pay to have the fire put out when it happened, surely they could have afforded the $75 prior.... they gambled and lost....

i carry only no-fault insurance on my car, if it gets in a wreck, fire, stolen, then I am SOL, not gonna complain to my insurance company about not having full coverage after the fact....

take some responsibility for your actions, if everyone did this the world would run a lot smoother......

**gazhekwe** · October-04-10, 08:30 PM

All people should pay taxes to fund community services. That erases the problem of defining who is responsible and who is stupid.

BUT if you live outside the taxed area, your options may be limited. I lived in a township where we had volunteer fire and ambulance services. Our taxes paid for the equipment, we provided the services. They funded the fire and EMT training. I went for the EMT training.