Is there actually a market for these condos?

**mwilbert** · September-26-10, 12:31 PM

http://www.freep.com/article/2010092...-in-Birmingham

I have nothing against condos in Birmingham, but this seems like overreach.

**BrushStart** · September-26-10, 12:55 PM

This is interesting, and if the units sell, that's great. I am not sure what they mean by "fabulous view" though... A view of what? If this places moves its units, I won't be able to understand why units in Broderick Tower or Book Cadillac won't sell. Birmingham is nice, but this building in any other city would be far down on the totem pole of luxury urban living. What ever happened to sky mansions 30 floors above the street? Now, that's posh.

If I were going to pay several million dollars for a condo, basically trading the luxuries of a large house and a yard, it had better give me a view of the skyline, have a doorman, and have all of the prestige and visibility a Park Avenue penthouse in Manhattan. I just don't see why people would pay that much to live in a posh condo in a suburban area when you have none of the ammenities of the city, i.e. you are not at the center of the region's univerese. Downtown is only place I can see paying that much to be "urban" is worth it. Otherwise, just live in a mansion.

**Gistok** · September-26-10, 01:59 PM

BrushStart.... sounds like you better get into your car and drive thru Birmingham... before you go too far offbase...

Birmingham has a walkable downtown with high end boutiques and movie theatres, restaurants, etc. Apparently a lot of very rich people don't share your views that a spectacular view and downtown location is a prerequisite for a high end condo.

Here's another successful condo projects that is VERY expensive, and is successful...
http://www.highrises.com/detroit/the-willits-condos/

**BrushStart** · September-26-10, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

BrushStart.... sounds like you better get into your car and drive thru Birmingham... before you go too far offbase...

Birmingham has a walkable downtown with high end boutiques and movie theatres, restaurants, etc. Apparently a lot of very rich people don't share your views that a spectacular view and downtown location is a prerequisite for a high end condo.

Here's another successful condo projects that is VERY expensive, and is successful...
http://www.highrises.com/detroit/the-willits-condos/

I know what Birmingham looks like, I go to a coffee place there frequently. I also genuinely think Birmingham is a nice place to live. What I'm getting at is that these "very rich people", whoever they might be, are much different than their counterparts in other cities from what I have observed.

B'ham does have a nice suburban downtown, but it does not compare with the visibility of a major downtown. When I think of someone spending that kind of money on an "urban" condo, I would think one would want to say they live at Detroit's equivalent to Trump Tower, i.e. the Fort Shelby or Book Cadillac. I would also think that one would want to be walking distance to sports stadiums and the region's entertainment district. I would think one would want to be at the center of the universe, so-to-speak. Not orbiting 25 miles out.

My point is, if you had that much money to spend, why would you live in a condo in Birmingham when you could have a mansion in Birmingham on a private drive with a huge yard, a 3-car garage, and a guest house? It seems that if you wanted to pay that kind of money for the urban arrangement, you would want to be in a luxury skyscraper with all of the ammenities of the Book Cadillac, looking out your 30th floor wrap-around windows at your burgeoning empire. This building in Birmingham is only 4 stories... 5,000 sq. ft. on the second floor just sounds pathetic. I probably had better views growing up in my parents' suburban colonial. lol. The Fort Shelby address alone signifies money and power.

I'm not knocking this development; I wish it great success. I just don't understand some people's tastes. If I ever have the kind of money these buyers do, I would buy a luxury condo downtown. Whose digs do you think guests are going to find more impressive? The second floor condo in B'ham or a luxury penthouse downtown overlooking the cityscape and river? It's a no-brainer.

**wazootyman** · September-26-10, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by BrushStart

I know what Birmingham looks like, I go to a coffee place there frequently. I also genuinely think Birmingham is a nice place to live. What I'm getting at is that these "very rich people", whoever they might be, are much different than their counterparts in other cities from what I have observed.

B'ham does have a nice suburban downtown, but it does not compare with the visibility of a major downtown. When I think of someone spending that kind of money on an "urban" condo, I would think one would want to say they live at Detroit's equivalent to Trump Tower, i.e. the Fort Shelby or Book Cadillac. I would also think that one would want to be walking distance to sports stadiums and the region's entertainment district. I would think one would want to be at the center of the universe, so-to-speak. Not orbiting 25 miles out.

My point is, if you had that much money to spend, why would you live in a condo in Birmingham when you could have a mansion in Birmingham on a private drive with a huge yard, a 3-car garage, and a guest house? It seems that if you wanted to pay that kind of money for the urban arrangement, you would want to be in a luxury skyscraper with all of the ammenities of the Book Cadillac, looking out your 30th floor wrap-around windows at your burgeoning empire. This building in Birmingham is only 4 stories... 5,000 sq. ft. on the second floor just sounds pathetic. I probably had better views growing up in my parents' suburban colonial. lol. The Fort Shelby address alone signifies money and power.

I'm not knocking this development; I wish it great success. I just don't understand some people's tastes. If I ever have the kind of money these buyers do, I would buy a luxury condo downtown. Whose digs do you think guests are going to find more impressive? The second floor condo in B'ham or a luxury penthouse downtown overlooking the cityscape and river? It's a no-brainer.

Threads like this annoy me. Forgive me for making an assumption, but I feel like they always have an underlying anti-suburban tone. You don't like the condo development, I get that. But, allow me to make another assumption: It's very unlikely that even one of us on this forum can or will ever be able to afford such a residence. It's almost silly to comment on its viability when the target demographic has means way beyond ours. Then again, maybe you're a millionaire, but I figure you would have said so.

Prior to making a comment about Birmingham, I should state the usual Detroit disclaimer: I genuinely love the city. I do not live within the city limits. I took part in Tour de Troit yesterday for the 3rd year in a row - and had a great time downtown for the remainder of the afternoon. Both my wife [[a transplant to this area) and I spend a lot of time down there. Okay, that's out of the way...

We also spent a lot of time this summer in downtown Birmingham. The outdoor dining, shopping and ambiance are some of the best in the area. It's a matter of opinion, of course, but it fits what myself and my wife really like. It's also a great happy hour meeting point for us and other friends, since our day jobs spread from Livonia to Auburn Hills. None of us happen to work downtown - not by choice, it's just where our careers have landed us. I work in an office park surrounded by nothing. The location is lousy, but it's a great job... I would much rather work in downtown Detroit, Royal Oak, Birmingham, etc. where I could walk to lunch, eat in the park, or just get some fresh air.

For most people in this area, Detroit is not the center of their universe. I am in full agreement that it should be, but you have to look at where the amenties and entertainment are concentrated. For instance, I have just as much reason to go to Birmingham for dinner as I do downtown. You can walk for blocks upon blocks to just about anything. Somerset, along with some of the finest dining in the area is within 10 minutes by car. I'm thinking the person who buys one of these condos may be nearing retirement. I just don't see someone of that age giving up convenience to be a true urban pioneer in Detroit. It's only a 30 minute drive when they want to go downtown to see a show or catch a game.

As for the view - I know that the condos are right by a rather large park, surrounded by buildings - including the Townsend, the library and the police department [[which is a really neat building). It's no city skyline from 50 stories up, but it's a respectable view nonetheless. Many of the trendy neighborhoods in NYC are only 4 stories. I'm not sure how that's a problem.

I could go on, I just don't think it's fair to be so critical of an urban development anywhere in our region. Quit knocking this development.

**Gistok** · September-26-10, 04:22 PM

Originally Posted by BrushStart

I know what Birmingham looks like, I go to a coffee place there frequently. I also genuinely think Birmingham is a nice place to live. What I'm getting at is that these "very rich people", whoever they might be, are much different than their counterparts in other cities from what I have observed.

B'ham does have a nice suburban downtown, but it does not compare with the visibility of a major downtown. When I think of someone spending that kind of money on an "urban" condo, I would think one would want to say they live at Detroit's equivalent to Trump Tower, i.e. the Fort Shelby or Book Cadillac. I would also think that one would want to be walking distance to sports stadiums and the region's entertainment district. I would think one would want to be at the center of the universe, so-to-speak. Not orbiting 25 miles out.

My point is, if you had that much money to spend, why would you live in a condo in Birmingham when you could have a mansion in Birmingham on a private drive with a huge yard, a 3-car garage, and a guest house? It seems that if you wanted to pay that kind of money for the urban arrangement, you would want to be in a luxury skyscraper with all of the ammenities of the Book Cadillac, looking out your 30th floor wrap-around windows at your burgeoning empire. This building in Birmingham is only 4 stories... 5,000 sq. ft. on the second floor just sounds pathetic. I probably had better views growing up in my parents' suburban colonial. lol. The Fort Shelby address alone signifies money and power.

I'm not knocking this development; I wish it great success. I just don't understand some people's tastes. If I ever have the kind of money these buyers do, I would buy a luxury condo downtown. Whose digs do you think guests are going to find more impressive? The second floor condo in B'ham or a luxury penthouse downtown overlooking the cityscape and river? It's a no-brainer.

There's plenty of reasons that people don't all want to be crowded into some high rise downtown, and prefer lower [[but still high) density luxury living without being on a large expanse of land...

Alexandria Virginia is one that comes to mind... very vibrant and very dense expensive living away from Washington D.C.

There are MANY other high density rich suburbs in NYC, Boston, San Francisco, Chicago, etc. You call it "pathetic"... and make it sound as though downtown Birmingham is some kind of anomaly.... but it's not!

**Zacha341** · September-26-10, 04:44 PM

Point well taken. Folks who do want to live in this area [[foregoing the high rise downtown options) are not going to want have to drive back out of Detroit to get to the larger variety of options offered in the suburbs. They are more than comfortable with the high price specialty shops and what all of that area. Downtown is still sparse after 6:00 PM weekdays when its sidewalks roll-up. And some parts are not safely walkable...

Originally Posted by wazootyman

...For most people in this area, Detroit is not the center of their universe. I am in full agreement that it should be, but you have to look at where the amenties and entertainment are concentrated. For instance, I have just as much reason to go to Birmingham for dinner as I do downtown. You can walk for blocks upon blocks to just about anything. Somerset, along with some of the finest dining in the area is within 10 minutes by car. I'm thinking the person who buys one of these condos may be nearing retirement. I just don't see someone of that age giving up convenience to be a true urban pioneer in Detroit. It's only a 30 minute drive when they want to go downtown to see a show or catch a game....

**BrushStart** · September-26-10, 04:49 PM

Whoa, whoa, no need to jump all over me. Maybe I am just out-of-touch, but there certainly was no latent anti-suburban message in my posts. I did not mean to pit the city against the suburbs. If these units had been built on the outskirts of Detroit, I would be of the same opinion.

Secondly, simply because I am not a millionaire does not mean I'm not allowed to pine on this condo development. It was reported by the Free Press for pete's sake. I genuinely like Birmingham. I have nothing against it. I hope it continues to thrive and that this development succeeds beyond the developer's wildest dreams. That said, if I had 3-million bucks to throw at a condo, which is an incredible amount of money, I would want something different, either a mansion on an enormous piece of land, or a penthouse in the city. Perhaps I simply have a bias for high-density areas- I live in one by choice. And from what I've seen in other cities, lots of other people do to, including the ultra rich.

If Birmingham is the center of the universe for these folks, then they should live there. I really don't care how they spend their money. I just want them to keep their money flowing in our region. My whole debate in this thread was grandiose dreaming about what I would do with that kind of money more than the likely success of this particular development. Birmingham is in good shape, it's a great place, and I'm sure this development will do just fine... that doesn't mean I understand the allure of living on the 2nd-4th floor of a multi-million dollar condo in B'ham. Get it?

**Zacha341** · September-26-10, 05:00 PM

You're cool and I got your core points. I guess people want to do different things. I'd want it all at that level; some land and the lower maintenance option of a condo. Hah! Ah, I'd love to have a three floor up condo... even in B'ham. That'd be nice though expensive. Much as I like to visit the high rise apartments of friends I don't like to live that high up all the time.

Originally Posted by BrushStart

Whoa, whoa, no need to jump all over me. Maybe I am just out-of-touch, but there certainly was no latent anti-suburban message in my posts. I did not mean to pit the city against the suburbs. If these units had been built in on the outskirts of Detroit, I would be of the same opinion. Maybe it's just my personal preference.

Secondly, simply because I am not a millionaire does not mean I'm not allowed to pine on this condo development. It was reported by the Free Press for pete's sake. I genuinely like Birmingham. I have nothing against it. I hope it continues to thrive and that this development succeeds beyond the developer's wildest dreams. That said, if I had 3-million bucks to throw at a condo, which is an incredible amount of money, I would want something different, either a mansion on an enormous piece of land, or a penthouse in the city. Perhaps I simply have a bias for high-density areas- I live in one by choice. And from what I've seen in other cities, lots of other people do to, including the ultra rich.

If Birmingham is the center of the universe for these folks, then they should live there. I really don't care how they spend their money. I just want them to keep their money flowing in our region. My whole debate in this thread was grandiose dreaming about what I would do with that kind of money more than the likely success of this particular development. Birmingham is in good shape, it's a great place, and I'm sure this development will do just fine... that doesn't mean I understand the allure of living on the 2nd-4th floor of a multi-million dollar condo in B'ham. Get it?

**DetroitPlanner** · September-26-10, 05:15 PM

Regardless they are going to have a hard time selling condos at this price. Once you add on property taxes and maintenace fees to the condo association the cost of living at something like this is astronomical. Just a few blocks outside of downtown B'ham are quiet nice residential streets with a plethora of housing in various sizes that are not selling at a fraction of the cost.

People need to get back to living reasonable and dare I say modest lifestyles. Conspiscious consumption went away when our retirement savings took a gigantic hit two years ago.

DC48080 · September-26-10, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Regardless they are going to have a hard time selling condos at this price. Once you add on property taxes and maintenace fees to the condo association the cost of living at something like this is astronomical. Just a few blocks outside of downtown B'ham are quiet nice residential streets with a plethora of housing in various sizes that are not selling at a fraction of the cost.

People need to get back to living reasonable and dare I say modest lifestyles. Conspiscious consumption went away when our retirement savings took a gigantic hit two years ago.

The last thing that the type of people who will buy those condos want to be is conspicuous. Some folks just don't want the hassle of maintaining a house and will pay for the convenience of condo living.

DC48080 · September-26-10, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by BrushStart

I'm sure this development will do just fine... that doesn't mean I understand the allure of living on the 2nd-4th floor of a multi-million dollar condo in B'ham. Get it?

No problem. I didn't take it as though you were dumping on Birmingham. But please realize that there are also a great many people out there who don't understand why anybody who has the means to do otherwise would want to establish residency in a city with absurdly high tax and insurance rates, third world crime rates, and abysmal school system and city services.

**Zacha341** · September-26-10, 05:33 PM

That's a point and not all Condos are this expensive. I know a friend that purchased a suburban one low, has paid it off and now just has to pay association fees in their retirement. Now that is living if you can do with a windfall of cash! I know I am not interested in doing or paying someone for grass mowing and shoveling snow and other house oriented tasks...

Originally Posted by DC48080

The last thing that the type of people who will buy those condos want to be is conspicuous. Some folks just don't want the hassle of maintaining a house and will pay for the convenience of condo living.

**Zacha341** · September-26-10, 05:37 PM

I hear that. I don't for one like behind the 'moat and drawbridge' castle-living, where what lies just outside my door is so distinctly different from my personal dwelling and lifestyle... I have to feel a connection to and hope for the community around me. This would be especially so, if money was not an object as issue, allowing more choices.

Originally Posted by DC48080

No problem. I didn't take it as though you were dumping on Birmingham. But please realize that there are also a great many people out there who don't understand why anybody who has the means to do otherwise would want to establish residency in a city with absurdly high tax and insurance rates, third world crime rates, and abysmal school system and city services.

**Hermod** · September-26-10, 06:55 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

I hear that. I don't for one like behind the 'moat and drawbridge' castle-living, where what lies just outside my door is so distinctly different from my personal dwelling and lifestyle... I have to feel a connection to and hope for the community around me. This would be especially so, if money was not an object as issue, allowing more choices.

A lot of times, the low-rise condo communities can be real neighborhoods. When you have an empty nest and don't need a back yard for the kids to play in, why not move into a condo and quit being a slave to Grass cutting, snow shoveling, leaf raking, etc.?

With a condo, you can take off when you want to and come back when you feel like it. A lot of folks don't care for being on the 30th or 50th floor, but want to be on the first or second floor.

**Zacha341** · September-26-10, 07:07 PM

Yeah, I can see that.... know a few folks including myself that already live in multi-dwelling two-storied 'with or without' attic, house-styled properties sprinkled about in the city [[which is becoming a safer option as someone is always around to ward off the thieves and scrappers).

You sorta get the feel and amenities of house living via basic privacy, as they are broken up into sections. And it is better than crowded apartment life with too many personalities and people. It can be nice and I love not shoveling snow and dealing with grass and other full house responsibilities.

I have a friend that lives in Woodbridge in a huge mammoth duplex up in a rather large attic and it has great view. The owner down on a lower level does all the lawn and snow stuff of pays to have it done.

I guess this sorta situation is the 'poor mans' working-stiff

'condo' lifestyle, just paying rent with the flexibility to go if needed.

Originally Posted by Hermod

A lot of times, the low-rise condo communities can be real neighborhoods. When you have an empty nest and don't need a back yard for the kids to play in, why not move into a condo and quit being a slave to Grass cutting, snow shoveling, leaf raking, etc.?

With a condo, you can take off when you want to and come back when you feel like it. A lot of folks don't care for being on the 30th or 50th floor, but want to be on the first or second floor.

**Gistok** · September-26-10, 09:19 PM

BrushStart,

Didn't mean to pick on you, since I shake my head in disbelief as well over the high prices that downtown Birmingham living can fetch.

Looking at it a different way... it seems unfathomable that just 1 of those units in that complex cost as much as the entire 16 story former Ritz Carlton in Fairlane Town Center in Dearborn.... a mere $3 million. Think of all the condos that could buy there [[especially with highrise views).

But the truth is Location... Location... Location... It may not always make sense... but some people will ante up the money.

**LeannaM** · September-26-10, 09:28 PM

The building itself is okay, but it doesn't have the beauty of the old brick/stone skyscrapers. Still, to each his own. It seems like the condo market almost everywhere is in the toilet right now.

**Det_ard** · September-26-10, 09:35 PM

Birmingham isn't my thing but it clearly comes closest to fitting the bill for some very upscale people who'd probably be living downtown in Chicago, Boston or NYC. At a certain income/wealth level they can afford to pay for very expensive real estate in order to be surrounded by upscale shopping, nightlife and restaurants. In other major cities there are areas with a lot more upscale amenities than there are in Detroit, in a low-crime environment. People will pay many millions for that combination. Here, the closest they can come is in B-ham.