Racial Divide in Major Cities

**DetroitArmy** · September-21-10, 08:29 AM

Not surprising in the least bit, but check out this map of racial divide in Metro Detroit.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/walking...7624812674967/

You can check out racial divide in the top 40 cities below

http://www.flickr.com/photos/walking...674967/detail/

**canuck** · September-21-10, 09:03 AM

This reminds me of the work that William "Wild Bill" Bunge, Geographer did in Detroit in the 60's and 70's until he got kicked out of Wayne State for his radical views and projects. You can access some interesting glimpses of his work here;

http://indiemaps.com/blog/2010/03/wild-bill-bunge/

I have tried to find him, he may be living in Montreal since he published a paper dated Montreal 2008 for a convention in Boston.

**DetroitHabitater** · September-21-10, 10:40 AM

I love this map. Although there are some anomalies when you blow it up, such as 4 people living on belle isle, and a dozen or so living in the detroit-windsor tunnel

**ronaldj** · September-21-10, 11:36 AM

"Division Street" by Studs Terkel was an interesting read about Chicago in the seventies. No doubt its message holds up these many years past.

**iheartthed** · September-21-10, 12:41 PM

Besides race, you can also see how densely populated Detroit is versus some other cities...

**jt1** · September-21-10, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

Besides race, you can also see how densely populated Detroit is versus some other cities...

It's pretty clear what many mean when they say 'nobody lives there anymore'.

**Hermod** · September-21-10, 01:10 PM

the City of Detroit seems to lack diversity. Oakland County is far more diverse than Detroit.

**MikeM** · September-21-10, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitHabitater

I love this map. Although there are some anomalies when you blow it up, such as 4 people living on belle isle, and a dozen or so living in the detroit-windsor tunnel

Each dot represents 25 people. I'm guessing Belle Isle and the tunnel were included within a census tract and then the dots representing population were spread evenly over the census tract area. It's not an accurate portrayal of the city's population distribution.

**Detroit Stylin** · September-21-10, 02:05 PM

http://www.flickr.com/photos/walking...7624812674967/

Yeah this is rather clear cut why we dont need Light Raill....

look at how so much more dense, Atlanta is than we are....

*sarcasm**

DetroitPole · September-22-10, 08:50 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

the City of Detroit seems to lack diversity. Oakland County is far more diverse than Detroit.

Not sure how you figure that, other than Southfield and Oak Park. Pontiac isn't really diverse since it is entirely segregated.

It would be useful if somebody talented could superimpose a map with municipal boundaries on here.

Detroit is probably on par with Oakland County in that its borders on the Detroit side are fuzzier. Southwest Detroit is obviously very diverse, Warrendale is mixed, and the eastside borders around Balduck and the westside around Five Points is mixed, along with Palmer Woods and what appears to be Rosedale or Brightmoor?

The only truly diverse and integrated community on this map is Hamtramck.

There is some green on the eastside of Detroit. I'm curious about that. I know there has been a Hmong community that is still there and am wondering if that is them. Any insights?

This reminds me of how one certain poster on here was screaming about how a certain Macomb County suburb of his was "diverse". Sorry, we are entirely segregated in this entire region.

**blackmath** · September-22-10, 08:54 AM

I really hope that one day society as a whole will get beyond the entire issue of race. It seems so childish to me and backward to even care about it. In the end we all have to live here so we might as well live together in peace.

**GOAT** · September-22-10, 09:01 AM

I would say it is now more of an economic class struggle than out and out racism. As black people make up the majority of the poor in this area [[and most urban areas) it stands that the segregation between people of colour would also show.

**Hermod** · September-22-10, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

There is some green on the eastside of Detroit. I'm curious about that. I know there has been a Hmong community that is still there and am wondering if that is them. Any insights?

Yes, a lot of Hmongs live there. The Vietnamese have moved out to Macomb County, Chinese and Indians to Troy.

There used to be a significant Korean community on west 8 mile and 7 mile in Detroit, but it appears they have moved out/been ethnically cleansed.

**Det_ard** · September-22-10, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

Not sure how you figure that, other than Southfield and Oak Park. Pontiac isn't really diverse since it is entirely segregated.

It would be useful if somebody talented could superimpose a map with municipal boundaries on here.

Detroit is probably on par with Oakland County in that its borders on the Detroit side are fuzzier. Southwest Detroit is obviously very diverse, Warrendale is mixed, and the eastside borders around Balduck and the westside around Five Points is mixed, along with Palmer Woods and what appears to be Rosedale or Brightmoor?

The only truly diverse and integrated community on this map is Hamtramck.

There is some green on the eastside of Detroit. I'm curious about that. I know there has been a Hmong community that is still there and am wondering if that is them. Any insights?

This reminds me of how one certain poster on here was screaming about how a certain Macomb County suburb of his was "diverse". Sorry, we are entirely segregated in this entire region.

It appears you aren't that familiar with many of Oakland County's suburbs. Or you view diversity as equaling Black people. Taking a more broad view of diversity, incorporating other racial groups [[Asians, Hispanics), ethnic groups, nationalities and religions you'd find places like Troy, Madison Heights, West Bloomfield, Farmington and Canton are more diverse in measures other than Black/White than Detroit. In fact, Detroit is largely Black, Christian, and US-born.

**jt1** · September-22-10, 01:48 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

It appears you aren't that familiar with many of Oakland County's suburbs. Or you view diversity as equaling Black people. Taking a more broad view of diversity, incorporating other racial groups [[Asians, Hispanics), ethnic groups, nationalities and religions you'd find places like Troy, Madison Heights, West Bloomfield, Farmington and Canton are more diverse in measures other than Black/White than Detroit. In fact, Detroit is largely Black, Christian, and US-born.

Per Semcog 2000 numbers
City - % Minority [[not majority of city)

Detroit: 18.8%
Troy: 18.7%
Madison Heights: 15.2%
Farmington: 15.2%
Canton: 17.7%

Granted these are numbers from the 2000 census but when you state certainties you should really suplly facts to back it up.

I think the more important thing is to consider that even in 2000 [[which according to the census Detroit was more diverse than any of the communities you list) we had a region pointing out how diverse Troy and Canton are but insisting that only black people live in Detroit.

I guess diversity means different things to different people but it seems like seeing a black person in Canton means diversity but seeing a white person, or hispanic person in Detroit does not.

Feel free to refute the numbers above but supply some actual facts, not just what you 'know'.

**Det_ard** · September-22-10, 01:59 PM

Way to miss the point, JT1. Look beyond race. Reread my post.

In addition to racial diversity, which I assume your numbers represent, and in addition to ethnic, nationality and religious diversity which I already mentioned, there's political, educational and economic diversity [[and more).

To me, diversity goes way beyond race. It's about different ideas, viewpoints, life experiences and attitudes. Those aren't necessarily defined by one's race/ethnicity/nationality/religion/politics/income/education, but diversity in those categories seems to enhance differences in ideas, viewpoints, life experiences and attitudes.

I've lived in Detroit and in various suburbs. For me, in my experience [[sorry no footnotes or links), I experienced greater diversity amongst neighbors on my street or in my neighborhood in the suburbs, using my broader measure of diversity. YMMV.

**jt1** · September-22-10, 02:07 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

Way to miss the point, JT1. Look beyond race. Reread my post.

In addition to racial diversity, which I assume your numbers represent, and in addition to ethnic, nationality and religious diversity which I already mentioned, there's political, educational and economic diversity [[and more).

The numbers that I represented are racial and ethnic [[as defined by SEMCOG). If you want to add additional factors of diversity such as political, educational and econcomic that is fine. I would however expect you to have some facts to support your claims. People often see what they want to see which is what you appear to be doing

To me, diversity goes way beyond race. It's about different ideas, viewpoints, life experiences and attitudes. Those aren't necessarily defined by one's race/ethnicity/nationality/religion/politics/income/education, but diversity in those categories seems to enhance differences in ideas, viewpoints, life experiences and attitudes.

And you think this applies in places like Troy and Canton? I suspect we see things through a very, very different lens.

I'll wait to see some facts because you are defining what is diverse and what is not based upon your experiences. Based upon my experiences places like Troy and Canton are the epitome of group think.

I think you missed my point that you hail the great diversity in Troy yet dismiss any diversity in Detroit. Matbe it is based upon specifif neighborhoods but I just don't see how you can support that with facts.

**fryar** · September-22-10, 02:08 PM

Diversity is also about people, erm, "of different demographic groups" living in the same place, or amongst one another and coming into contact with one another. Instead of living in homogenous ghettohoods, as Danny might say. FWIW.

**jt1** · September-22-10, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

I've lived in Detroit and in various suburbs. For me, in my experience [[sorry no footnotes or links), I experienced greater diversity amongst neighbors on my street or in my neighborhood in the suburbs, using my broader measure of diversity. YMMV.

So your sampling size is your street/neighborhood in Detroit vs. your street/neighborhood in the suburbs. That's a wonderful sample size to amking grand claims about entire cities.

I think the larger issue is that there is very little diversity anywhere in Metro Detroit. I guess our argument of which area is more diverse is pointless since we have a region that segregates itself based upon race, ethnicity, socio-economic factors, etc.

**Det_ard** · September-22-10, 02:29 PM

OK, JT1, if you want to get into a "prove it" fest you win. I'm not googling census data all afternoon to verify what any sentient being knows about metro Detroit already. You're being purposely obtuse, IMO, since I actually give you credit for being fairly smart.

Even Danny knows where the Chaldeans, Italians, Polish, Albanians, Vietnamese, Japanese or Indians [[Asian) tend to cluster. We all know there are cities more heavily populated by Jews, or by Muslims. We all know which cities are blue/red/purple. Which are mixed income and which are mainly low or high-income. If you've had so little interaction with others outside your comfort zone [[green zone) that you haven't noticed any of the differences in our region then what do we have to discuss? You're apparently blind to the non-race-based diversity all around our region.

**iheartthed** · September-22-10, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by jt1

So your sampling size is your street/neighborhood in Detroit vs. your street/neighborhood in the suburbs. That's a wonderful sample size to amking grand claims about entire cities.

I think the larger issue is that there is very little diversity anywhere in Metro Detroit. I guess our argument of which area is more diverse is pointless since we have a region that segregates itself based upon race, ethnicity, socio-economic factors, etc.

You might as well stop while you're ahead. Next he'll be trying to get you to believe that different hair colors are a sign of diversity, and yet another reason that the suburbs are more diverse than Detroit.

**jt1** · September-22-10, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Det_ard

OK, JT1, if you want to get into a "prove it" fest you win. I'm not googling census data all afternoon to verify what any sentient being knows about metro Detroit already. You're being purposely obtuse, IMO, since I actually give you credit for being fairly smart.

Even Danny knows where the Chaldeans, Italians, Polish, Albanians, Vietnamese, Japanese or Indians [[Asian) tend to cluster. We all know there are cities more heavily populated by Jews, or by Muslims. We all know which cities are blue/red/purple. Which are mixed income and which are mainly low or high-income. If you've had so little interaction with others outside your comfort zone [[green zone) that you haven't noticed any of the differences in our region then what do we have to discuss? You're apparently blind to the non-race-based diversity all around our region.

I think that is the issue in our region. Even in the sub groups you mention people tend to stay 'in their group'. Are you telling me the Chaldean and Italian communities are interacting with everyone on a regular basis? Yes there may be a Chaldean population in Troy, an Albanian population in Macomb county, an Italian population in Northern Macomb count but those communities by and large interact with each other. That's the problem with the region.

There may be diversity there but there is littlle interaction amongst different socio-econcomic groups, religious groups, ethnic groups. To me, using your criteria we shouldn't be looking at city level but in smaller groups. Italians are not hanging out with Chaldeans, poor are not hanging out with wealthy, etc.

We have a region that consist of groups that do not stray outside of their group often. It's sad when it is a surprise to see white and black kids hanging out or Chaldean and Italian kids hanging out or Middle Eastern and black kids hanging out.

We have a region that is founded and still heavily rooted in segregation.

**Det_ard** · September-22-10, 02:58 PM

The "off the boat" immigrants tend to stay within their groups but other than that there's a lot of interaction, at least in my life and the life of my wife and kids. Their schools, teams and neighborhoods are pretty diverse across all the dimensions I cited earlier. My daughter's friends from her soccer team are White, Black, Chaldean, Japanese [[arrived 6 months ago) and British. Her coach played on the Russian national team. Houses in my area go for between $75K and $600K. There are food service workers and doctors. Etc, etc.

I think many urbanophiles have a distorted and stereotypical view of life outside the city. To me that's a sign they haven't invested the time in getting to know others [[outsiders, suburbanites) very well.

**Det_ard** · September-22-10, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by iheartthed

You might as well stop while you're ahead. Next he'll be trying to get you to believe that different hair colors are a sign of diversity, and yet another reason that the suburbs are more diverse than Detroit.

Buzz off, flea.

**DetroitHabitater** · September-22-10, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by MikeM

Each dot represents 25 people. I'm guessing Belle Isle and the tunnel were included within a census tract and then the dots representing population were spread evenly over the census tract area. It's not an accurate portrayal of the city's population distribution.

Curious. Almost defeats the propose of mapping it. I wonder how large the tracts are.