Historic Pewabic tiles destroyed in Belle Isle fountain restoration

**DetroitZack** · September-17-10, 05:35 AM

Article from today's Detroit Free Press. It's too bad these couldn't at least be saved and moved elsewhere.

http://www.freep.com/article/2010091...in-restoration

**gnome** · September-17-10, 07:10 AM

Destroyed the fountain to save it. Nice.

It is stuff like this that makes me a tad upset and completely disinclined to imagine a time when Detroit will ever pull its head out of its ass.

Didn't they think to sell the pieces? Raise some dough through creative re-use. nah. Jackhammers. Dump. and turn the fountain into something with all the charm of a freeway entrance ramp.

**JohnnyFreddy** · September-17-10, 07:11 AM

Yeah, add to that the tiles King Kwame Kilpatrick destroyed at the Manoogian, and you get an inkling of the priorities set in this recent era of administration.
But the residents of Detroit are being so completely distracted by the 'Right Sizing'
of our city, that preservation, is unfortunately, way down on the list of concerns.
Oh well, at least the fountain is being preserved. Perhaps the 'Pond' will be redone as well.

LodgeDodger · September-17-10, 07:27 AM

I. Am. Livid.

**DetroitPlanner** · September-17-10, 07:31 AM

Way to check your facts freep, her last name was Stratton. Perry was her maiden name.

**Midtown** · September-17-10, 07:50 AM

Ask Chuck Forbes he stripped the tiles from the YMCA Pool, it takes time and patience none of which was exhibited by the contractor or by the people who wrote the bid specs for the renovation.

Bob

DetroitPole · September-17-10, 08:00 AM

Originally Posted by DetroitZack

Article from today's Detroit Free Press. It's too bad these couldn't at least be saved and moved elsewhere.

http://www.freep.com/article/2010091...in-restoration

Whose cousin/lover/Cass Tech football buddy/childhood friend got that fat contract?

**Whitehouse** · September-17-10, 09:25 AM

"The base of the fountain was deteriorated beyond repair, and it had been leaking for years," Sabo said Thursday. "They tried to do some restoration work on it maybe four or five years ago that was unsuccessful. We salvaged what we could salvage. The tile was also in a fragile state."

There's only so much you can do, you know. What would be the value of repairing the tiles, when in five years you're back to scratch and the tub is leaking again? It's hard to see some of that intricate work being dumped in a skip but if the workers guarantee that the base of the fountain will be solid for decades to come, would you still consider this sacrilege if your grandchildren can still enjoy a working fountain. Here in the Netherlands there's a saying " Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden," which one on one translates as "Gentle surgeons [[or healers) create stinking wounds."

From wikipedia:

Meaning: "It is better to treat a problem thoroughly even if the treatment is painful, otherwise it may get worse."

Destroying the tiles in vandalism, but if you don't do a job thoroughly the problems with the fountain will come back to haunt you.

Maybe some of the work can be saved by you, taking things out of the skip.

**bailey** · September-17-10, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Whitehouse

There's only so much you can do, you know. What would be the value of repairing the tiles, when in five years you're back to scratch and the tub is leaking again? It's hard to see some of that intricate work being dumped in a skip but if the workers guarantee that the base of the fountain will be solid for decades to come, would you still consider this sacrilege if your grandchildren can still enjoy a working fountain. Here in the Netherlands there's a saying " Zachte heelmeesters maken stinkende wonden," which one on one translates as "Gentle surgeons [[or healers) create stinking wounds."

From wikipedia:

Destroying the tiles in vandalism, but if you don't do a job thoroughly the problems with the fountain will come back to haunt you.

Maybe some of the work can be saved by you, taking things out of the skip.

exactly...
further, Pewabic is not out of business nor is it some lost art. Pewabic is practically across the street and going strong. Replacements can and should be made. Now, I can see getting all outraged if they just spray gunite on basin and call it a day, but c'mon, some things are just too far gone.

**English** · September-17-10, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

exactly...
further, Pewabic is not out of business nor is it some lost art. Pewabic is practically across the street and going strong. Replacements can and should be made. Now, I can see getting all outraged if they just spray gunite on basin and call it a day, but c'mon, some things are just too far gone.

That was my first reaction to the article -- could Pewabic try to replace the titles?

**Kathleen** · September-17-10, 10:18 AM

Sad...beyond words.

**JBMcB** · September-17-10, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by English

That was my first reaction to the article -- could Pewabic try to replace the titles?

They probably could, the problem is they'll need some money. Pewabic tiles are expensive because they are mostly hand made, labor intensive, and the scrap rate is relatively high [[go to one of their firehouse sales to see the effects of the scrap rate.)

So, someone is going to have to cough up some dough to replace them, I think.

**Detroitnerd** · September-17-10, 11:17 AM

I guess what bothers me is: Would contractors have done this in Italy? In France? In any European country? There, they have an idea of preservation and craft that goes back centuries. Here, we have this crew, probably a bunch of likable enough folks, who just simply see the thing as an engineering problem. Scrap this stuff; it's trashed; and lay down some beautiful concrete. That'll fix it. Can't say I blame them, because, overall, this is the attitude we have here in beautiful southeastern Michigan.

**JBMcB** · September-17-10, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Would contractors have done this in Italy?

I think they still use the guillotine for contractors who do that kind of thing in Italy.

**wolverine** · September-17-10, 12:34 PM

Woah, woah, hold up people. There's a few things you should get straight here.

The damage to the base of the fountain can be serious in the long run. It's basically a "Either you can have the fountain for another 60 years, or we will completely destroy it." They already mentioned they tried to fix the base years ago unsuccessfully. If the foundation of a historic building was crumbling, but access was blocked by ornate tiles, would you just let it go because the tiles were worth saving? Which leads me to.....

Can the tiles be rescued and the foundations repaired? Yes, absolutely, but with a cost. It's NOT the contractor's job to make that decision. The contractor says to the client. "Well we can save these tiles, to repair the foundation, but it's not part of the scope of the work. We can make adjustments to save them, but you need to pay us more since it will take more time."

If the client says "No perform the repairs, don't save the tiles." The contractor will perform the work in the shortest time possible. Obviously ripping the whole thing out with jackhammer is the easiest.

It upsets me that this happened. They should have been saved, that would have been the right way to do this. But be careful who you point blame to. DetroitYES posters have a habit in not reading and twisting things.

**bailey** · September-17-10, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

I guess what bothers me is: Would contractors have done this in Italy? In France? In any European country? There, they have an idea of preservation and craft that goes back centuries. Here, we have this crew, probably a bunch of likable enough folks, who just simply see the thing as an engineering problem. Scrap this stuff; it's trashed; and lay down some beautiful concrete. That'll fix it. Can't say I blame them, because, overall, this is the attitude we have here in beautiful southeastern Michigan.

the operative word in your post being 'preservation'. how many decades of "deferred" maintenance resulted in the problem becoming one that is past the point of salvage?

And again, why can't Pewabic be comissioned to replace the tiles?

**Blueidone** · September-17-10, 12:49 PM

I understand if the tiles are deteriorated and unusuable. However, I agree with Gnome in that the pieces could possible be sold to try and raise some money. I would have bought some. Anybody who does decorative tile mosaics and the like would have probably bought some. Perhaps they could have raised enough to at least replace SOME of the Pewabic tile.

Just trashing them seems like a terrible waste!

**Pam** · September-17-10, 01:42 PM

A contractor was using a bulldozer Thursday morning to scoop up the tile debris and load it into a Dumpster to be hauled away.

Maybe some of you can go dumpster diving if it hasn't been hauled off yet.

lilpup · September-17-10, 01:56 PM

Don't know if that affects the fountain or not but from what I understand today's Pewabic doesn't even have all of the rights to Chase Stratton's work. There was in particular a certain glaze she was known for that they don't use today.

**Swimmaven** · September-17-10, 02:17 PM

I always thought that the people in power in Detroit wanted to destroy everything made by the former power brokers. And they have. And they are still at it.

All the gorgeous architecture, the parks and now this. Destroyed. oh well.

**Baselinepunk** · September-17-10, 02:39 PM

I have to agree with some of the comments above. Unfortunately, there is only so much you can do. Usually [[and generally), a Condition Assessment is done first off to find out historical information, see just what is there, what state of degradation it is in, what needs to be fixed, what can be saved and perhaps most importantly, what does the client want.

Money is usually the biggest thing. Most things can be restored back to a specific period of historical significance -- but most of the time it takes money; and some times lots of money. Detroit Parks and Wreck, to me, seems to be out of their league when it comes to historical items. I'm not very fluid with all of the historic districts of Detroit, but I'm surprised that Detroit Parks and Wreck didn't have to someone/s approval [[who would be versed in historical preservation within the city); who signed off on this project at the City level? Was it just the Wreck Dept?

One thing that doesn't take a lot of money is an informed client. Seeing from the surface, no federal monies appear to be used, so there was not a Section 106 needed; that could provided more in depth information about the object.

You could have gotten contextual replacements for those tiles; it would have just taken time and ..... money. Yep, it's too bad that this happened; I think there could have been a better way to go about it. I'm sure that folks around here would have been more than happy to contribute a few bottle returns for this to be done right.

BTW -- the contractors who are working on this project are historic preservation / building conservation people who are trained to do this type of stuff. They would not do anything like this, IMHO, without someone either telling them to do it and signing off on it. This may have been one of the courses of actions they provided; but again IMHO, I don't see this "solution" being the only "solution" that the contractor would have provided to the client.

LodgeDodger · September-17-10, 03:12 PM

I completely understand when something is found to be no longer useful. It's a simple concept. What I cannot understand [[in this case) is for the company to neglect to call Pewabic. Not calling them smacks to me of a hurried demolition. It indicates to me that they didn't want to call in an expert [[and possibly waste time and money) on saving the tiles.

I'm just so tired of hearing about shit being bulldozed, thrown away, and mishandled.

As far as Pewabic continuing to manufacture tiles and vessels, yes they do. What many fail to understand is that the older the piece, the greater the value.

**Gistok** · September-17-10, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by lilpup

Don't know if that affects the fountain or not but from what I understand today's Pewabic doesn't even have all of the rights to Chase Stratton's work. There was in particular a certain glaze she was known for that they don't use today.

Lilpup... I believe some of her glazes were highly toxic, and possibly some were even radioactive...

**n7hn** · September-17-10, 03:21 PM

I doubt "remove and preserve tiles" was in the contractors contract, meaning I doubt it was a concern to whomever was in charge of the project. I think its sad they are gone but think the workers did what was requested. Im curious what the thoughts would be If they had been able to save them but had not been requested to. Are they then preservationists or scrappers? Say they saved them and did reinstall them anyway, should they bill? will someone pay? Are they obligated to save them at a loss to them?

I think best scenario would HAVE BEEN to present an opportunity to some preservation groups about the plan and a timeframe for private groups to fund and execute the removal of tiles if it was deemed that was desired , possible and funded.

**Detroitnerd** · September-17-10, 03:41 PM

Originally Posted by n7hn

I doubt "remove and preserve tiles" was in the contractors contract, meaning I doubt it was a concern to whomever was in charge of the project. I think its sad they are gone but think the workers did what was requested. Im curious what the thoughts would be If they had been able to save them but had not been requested to. Are they then preservationists or scrappers? Say they saved them and did reinstall them anyway, should they bill? will someone pay? Are they obligated to save them at a loss to them?

I think best scenario would HAVE BEEN to present an opportunity to some preservation groups about the plan and a timeframe for private groups to fund and execute the removal of tiles if it was deemed that was desired , possible and funded.

I would like to say it's impossible to second-guess what these guys were thinking or doing. As I said, probably not a bad bunch of guys, and, in light of the additional information posted here, they may have had no choice under the contract. But it's -- again, as it so often is here in Detroit -- a vision thing. The PTB probably don't give a hoot. History, shmistory. How else to explain their permission for Penske to have his concrete pad [[now useless) cut into the landscaping for the fountain?