Legalize drugs, yes or no?

[Stosh]

So Stosh, you advocate putting people in jail if they use drugs? Oops, let me correct myself, drugs you deem dangerous.

This is not about me Stosh or whatever lifestyle you perceive I live, this is about almost one million people serving time in prison for so called drug crimes. The drug war is a failure, you can go on hoping its going to accomplish something and cry about how you almost died because of the choices you made or you can get with the program and realize that you cannot stop addiction but only work with it. You cannot stop the flow of drugs but you could regulate it. You could efficiently tax the evil to help those that want help. Im glad you stopped your drugging ways, we all know a few who have fallen to its hell. I argue that the drugs could be regulated so that overdoses are unheard of. Im betting your friends died of overdoses or HIV, both preventable if the drugs were regulated and clean needles were available. Im bettin ten bucks I know more ppl that have died from legal booze than so called illegal drugs that have killed your friends.

Cramps my style, have we met? do you know me? Obviously not. If my attitude makes you sad well then Im really sorry about that misconception you have.

You want to have a legal beer or a smoke let me know, IM me, Im down, then you can get to know me, your buyin though.

Let me ask you again, Do you advocate putting people in jail if they use drugs? Please, answer my question.

Yes, and No. Yes because it probably stops them from the behavior, and no because it costs too much. Decriminalize MJ and that's it. I'm really for getetically manipulating coca and poppy plants to destroy the potential creation of these drugs, ever. So until that day, whatever.

[maxx]

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/...ths/myths4.htm

As of 1983, however, England began to phase out these programs of clinically supplied heroin in favor of methadone treatment.49 Why? First, according to the reputable British physician journal Lancet, the number of addicts increased 100% between 1970 and 1980.50 A disproportionate number of these new addicts were between the ages of sixteen and seventeen.51 Second, only twenty percent of all of the addicts in England belonged to the clinical programs.52 At first blush, this fact seems strange - why would addicts choose not to participate in a program wherein they get free methadone? The answer probably lies in the fact that methadone does not produce the high that heroin does. Also, addicts probably did not care for the mandatory treatment and rehabilitation facets of the clinical programs. Whatever the reason, by 1985 England had 80,000 heroin addicts, the vast majority of whom wen not in treatment...

The Dutch have not raised one dollar in tax revenue from drug sales, and drug violators account for 50 percent of the Dutch prison population, a higher proportion than in the United States.60 The Netherlands is the most crime-prone nation in Europe and most drug addicts live on state welfare payments and by committing crimes.61 Nationwide, the number of reported crimes increased to 1.3 million in 1992 from. 812,000 in 1981.62 Faced with public disgust at home over soaring drug related crime and pressure from other European Community countries to strengthen drug laws, Dutch authorities are implementing an aggressive program to reduce drug-linked crimes and disturbances and show new teeth in combatting illegal drug sales...

Much like Amsterdam, Switzerland until recently followed a policy of decriminalization. Indeed, a city park in the town of Zurich for many years was allowed to be a haven for drug users - police simply would ignore the problem by claiming that it was better to have all the addicts in one place rather than having them roam throughout the entire city.66 Unsurprisingly, in February of 1992 Switzerland ended this experiment with decriminalization after experiencing an unacceptable increase in use, violence, crime and health costs and consequences.67 Specifically, the number of addicts residing at the park [[called Platzspitz) jumped from a few hundred in 1987 to over 20,000, by early 1992.68 Approximately 20% of these addicts were foreigners who came to Zurich to take advantage of the city's lax drug laws.69 In deciding to close the park, city officials cited the increased incidence of crime and prostitution--as Andres Oehler, a municipal spokesperson stated, "it was felt that the situation had got out of control in every sense.

Since 1983 in Spain, it has been legal to use, but not sell, cocaine and heroin. Recently, however,
Spanish officials have begun a crack-down on drug pushers due to a dramatic increase in the addiction rate.71 Unsurprisingly, Spain and Italy, which also legalized use of cocaine and heroin, have the highest rates of both drug use and overdose of all European countries.

Lest we forget the lessons of history, consider that in the late 1800's, opium was legal in China. By 1900, ninety million Chinese were addicted to the drug, and it took fifty years of repressive police measures and rehabilitation to correct the problem.73 Today, opium and other addictive drugs are illegal.

n the 1950's, Japan was faced with an epidemic of amphetamine use that created half a million addicts. Through socialization and policies aimed at both reducing supply and demand, the number of addicts was decreased to a few thousand within four years.75 A heroin epidemic involving thousands of addicts was dealt with successfully in the 1960's using the same measures.

Throughout recent history, numerous other countries have attempted legalizing or decriminalizing drugs, all meeting with the same harmful results. In Egypt in the 1920's, an unrestricted supply of cocaine and heroin created an epidemic that eventually resulted in the strict prosecution of all addicts.77 In Thailand and Iran, countries that traditionally have had cheap and unrestricted sources of narcotics, the addiction rates have been and continue to be high.78 Finally, the Republic of Singapore had to resort to strict law enforcement and mandatory rehabilitation in order to overcome a heroin epidemic.

[Stosh]

Thanks for the info, Maxx. That's what I was looking for too.

[Django]

Stosh, so because of someones behavior you feel they should be imprisoned but it cost to much so no. Theres a solid answer. I think I got the jist of your typos and understand that you would want to manipulate the entire coca and poppies papaver soniferum gene pool so they would no longer have any psychoactive ingredients, good luck with that. The big pharm companies have the pain suppressants under control anyway and they are our future big drug dealers. People are going to get high whether you feel its right or wrong. How many centuries has the far East been cultivating opium and South America been cultivating coca? Where has the drug war gotten us today? How many more do you want to lock up? Have you ever been to prison? [[I have neither)Ive been to jail and can only imagine the frustration of being locked up for years because I used a refined natural plant to get high on. If you had a son who was hooked on heroin would you want him locked up? If he got out after doing a few years and went back to it would you want him locked up again? and again?



Maxx

I read your cut and paste already, I thought I made that clear. I hate it when ppl pull some crap off the internet and try and pass it off as their own. Again I ask, what institute backed that bullshit? No name, no date, nothing, its just some made up crap probably from someone who holds a lot of stock in the business of prisons. You do realize that prisons have become big business since the drug war started taking off in the 80s.

I havent heard from any of you as to why Portugal has had such a success with their decrim policy.

How about you Maxx. If your son was smoking crack would you turn him in to the police and make sure he went to prison for his crime?

If it were me I would want him to get treatment.

What about his drug dealer? I could want him to go to prison and store him with my tax dollars but there would be someone right behind him to take his place.

You all can talk about how other countries have dealt with their drug problems with force and won but the truth is old addicts die off and their younglings see what those addicts lives were like and they didnt want that type of life.

Look at most inner city kids here in Detroit. They all have a parent or brother or uncle whos an addict. They know better than to try the shit and wind up like them. If you live near a dope house, look to see whos going in there, they are all old and if there not old there from the burbs. No doubt opium took its toll in Asia in the 1800s but it wasnt the police that straightened that shit out, the people themselves straightened that shit out because they realized what a ball and chain opium is.

Maxx, please, no more cut and paste. If you have a thought write it out. If you would check out the site you got that from you would see that they are all for drug law reform. If you really must cut an paste do it from a legit institute.

Somebody please give me a real argument.

Look guys, its been fun but Ive got to go hock my puter right now so I can get some smack in my arm. Ill be back online in a few days.

[Blarf]

There are plenty of people that actually OBEY laws. And refrain from doing things that are against the law. Take away that moral prohibition and what do you get? More people using, more people getting hooked.

Who has conducted these studies? Can I have a link to your source?

[maxx]

I had read about the noble experiment of Britain and Switzerland back in the 1970s and 1980s. This was the article I could find quickly online. If you don't like the conclusions reached about the proliferation of drugs and crime, what can I say?

Of course, I want people treated for their addictions. If you set up a psychiatric ward large enough to hold all the addicts in Detroit, it wouldn't look much different from a jail. Again, the issue is money and the political will to spend more on drug rehab and less on, say, the military.

I dislike people saying things like, "Let's legalize all drugs" without taking the time to consider all that that entails. You can't make an informed decision about anything if you don't have much information. Some people like to think that their personal experience is all that is needed. They don't appear to understand the concept of anecdotal information.

From what I have read, there isn't one country in the developed world, at least, that thinks that drugs like cocaine, heroin, and meth are good for people and should not be controlled in some way.

[Django]

Thanks for the info, Maxx. That's what I was looking for too.

Thats because it was such a hard find, practically a needle in a haystack of stats showing the losing side. Your fighting a lost cause. People are wising up to the damage the drug war has done.

Neither of you has yet to respond to the many articles on Portugal's success with decrim. Have either of you dared to even look at the stats? Maxx is still talking about the 1800s for cripes sake. Last I looked this is the 21st century.

Im really gone now.

[Blarf]

I believe the Mexican government decriminalized possession of all drugs for personal use. Spring break just got a whole lot funner!

[Django]

Quote:
From what I have read, there isn't one country in the developed world, at least, that thinks that drugs like cocaine, heroin, and meth are good for people and should not be controlled in some way

Thats what Im saying, they should be controlled, if you cat stop them control them. Have you not read this thread? PPl are dying from overdoses everyday because drugs are not controlled. Im not saying that all drugs should be legalized tomorrow but this is something we should be looking at. They are out of control because they are i the hands of the black market.

Who in the hell said drugs like meth and cocaine are good for ppl? Who would make such a statement? Drugs are bad, duh! They need to be regulated.

I cant even believe Im wasting my time explaining this to you.

[Django]

I believe the Mexican government decriminalized possession of all drugs for personal use. Spring break just got a whole lot funner!

Blarf, thank you for lightning the mood, I was ready to start pulling my hair out. That made me laugh. It probably will be a whole lot funner down there.

Yeah, Mexicos has about had it with us and our need for drugs and our need to prohibit them. Its like were sayin to them "dude, my family has a shitload of money and they want to buy all the drugs they can off you, man they really have a lot of money, but dont do it"

In the meantime something like a hundred people a day are killed in Mexico trying to feed our drug habit. Maybe we should start a War on Drugs, maybe that would, oh, uh never mind.

Oh Im leavin this time. Gonna get my head on, get some hayron, get downtown, take a nod, the silver spike, the super duper, Im goin low, the big dive, gonna open the paper and get my tingle, Im puttin my oysters in a warm glass of milk, East side is callin, the Horsehead is the dickhead, get out the ex-laxx, Im comin home momma jus gotta ask the nurse who the killa is.

Ahh the bad ol days.

[Blarf]

Stosh and Maxx would probably get along really well with the drug cartel members and drug dealers they despise.....because they are all in agreement that drugs should remain illegal!

[Django]

Stosh and Maxx would probably get along really well with the drug cartel members and drug dealers they despise.....because they are all in agreement that drugs should remain illegal!

There tryin to set up a S.E. Michigan Cartell.

Maxx, is your last name Escobar?

Stosh, are you a Jusus Malverde card carrier?

Did Kuhn Sah send you two from Burma?

[maxx]

Django:
Stosh, so we should continue to store anyone who uses drugs in prison?

How do the police even know someone is taking drugs unless they are out in public doing something that attracts attention?
SO when you talk about decriminalizing drugs are you talking about allowing people to sell drugs here or just use?

[maxx]

Stosh and Maxx would probably get along really well with the drug cartel members and drug dealers they despise.....because they are all in agreement that drugs should remain illegal!

And you haven't explained what drug legalization means. Do you envision any regulations at all? Will we be locking people up for rehab instead of for prison? And how many times do they get to go through rehab? Will they have to contribute financially to their rehab? And should there be a campaign to change young people's attitudes about drugs? Will there be an age limit for the use of drugs? Will be people be able to sell drugs or only use?

[Django]

ANYTHING, ABSOLUTELY ANYTHING is better than our current objective. Im not here with some grand plan, I do know the drug war is a failure. What is the obvious direction if the war on drugs does not work, I would say End The Goddamn War On Drugs. That means either decrim it or legalize it. Im no fuckin brain, let the suits hash it out, just stop putting ppl in jail for the shit and look to treatment.

[maxx]

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...rs/whoare.html
"...Men have consistently had a higher rate of drug use than women. In 1999, 8.7% of men were current users of illicit drugs, compared to 4.9% of women. Among children aged 12-17, the rates for boys were only slightly higher than those for girls. [[8.4% vs. 7.1%)"

"...Of the major racial/ethnic groups, the rate of drug use is highest among the American Indian/Native American population [[10.6%) and those reporting mixed race [[11.2%), followed by African Americans [[7.7%), Hispanics [[6.8%), whites [[6.6%). The lowest rates are found among the Asian population. [[3.2%)."

Why have men had a higher drug rate than women? Why do Asians have such a low rate while Native Americans are high -- literally?

Im no fuckin brain, let the suits hash it out...

So you're willing to trust the gov. with a new drug program with no input from you? Perhaps you have indulged too much? lol

[Blarf]

And you haven't explained what drug legalization means. Do you envision any regulations at all? Will we be locking people up for rehab instead of for prison? And how many times do they get to go through rehab? Will they have to contribute financially to their rehab? And should there be a campaign to change young people's attitudes about drugs? Will there be an age limit for the use of drugs? Will be people be able to sell drugs or only use?

Treat it like alcohol.

[Stosh]

Quote:
From what I have read, there isn't one country in the developed world, at least, that thinks that drugs like cocaine, heroin, and meth are good for people and should not be controlled in some way

Thats what Im saying, they should be controlled, if you cat stop them control them. Have you not read this thread? PPl are dying from overdoses everyday because drugs are not controlled. Im not saying that all drugs should be legalized tomorrow but this is something we should be looking at. They are out of control because they are i the hands of the black market.

Who in the hell said drugs like meth and cocaine are good for ppl? Who would make such a statement? Drugs are bad, duh! They need to be regulated.

I cant even believe Im wasting my time explaining this to you.

Ok great. So let's say drugs should be controlled. Tell me how. And where do you think we are going to get the cash for all this rehab? Legalization or whatever doesn't mean it's free. And it's not the responsibility of government to provide the drugs to you, either.

Oh now drugs are bad? My point exactly. People are dying from drug overdoses because they are drug addicts, and drug users. It's not the responsibility of the state to regulate dosage, for fuck's sake.

[Detroitnerd]

Ok great. So let's say drugs should be controlled. Tell me how.

The same way you control beer, wine, spirits, tobacco and firearms. Licensed dealers, proof of ID, background checks, etc. That way you keep it out of the hands of kids. Right now, it's easier for kids to get drugs than alcohol because it's on the black market. Legalize it and you have strict terms of sale.

And where do you think we are going to get the cash for all this rehab?

Where do you think we are getting the cash to imprison people for possessing drugs? Prison is a fuck of a lot more expensive than rehab. If you're willing to examine the massive amount of money we spend to imprison, jail, prosecute and punish drug users, you'll realize that rehab costs are a drop in the bucket. Although it could also be wrapped into a national health care system, which would control costs even more. And none of this mentions the millions -- heck, billions -- of dollars governments would suddenly be able to harness in vice taxes.

Legalization or whatever doesn't mean it's free.

No, it just means that our law enforcement can focus on catching killers, rapists and other violent criminals instead of making around 850,000 arrests a year for marijuana. And then we don't have to spend the money to incarcerate them at the rape factory.

And it's not the responsibility of government to provide the drugs to you, either.

That is so stupid it doesn't even merit comment.

People are dying from drug overdoses because they are drug addicts, and drug users. It's not the responsibility of the state to regulate dosage, for fuck's sake.

OK, so when you buy a bottle of wine, do you think it's OK that it's wine mixed with antifreeze that causes you to go blind? Or that it might be 180 proof moonshine that can explode? Or that it might not even be alcoholic? No, we rely on the government to ensure that certain products are what they purport to be.

[blackmath]

Oh now drugs are bad? My point exactly. People are dying from drug overdoses because they are drug addicts, and drug users. It's not the responsibility of the state to regulate dosage, for fuck's sake.

Stosh, if I may... I don't think anyone here said drugs were good. Alcohol, drugs, gambling, prostitutes, chocolate, pop and chips are all bad. The issue here is people going to jail for simply possessing or being under the influence of a drug. When they go out and commit a crime against another person then yes, prosecute them to the full extent of the law, absolutely. What doesn't make sense to me is how we can feel okay with punishing someone with jail time, a felony arrest record which ruins their lives all because they did some drugs and didn't harm anyone other than themselves.

We are talking about NON violent drug offenders here.

To me, this entire argument is about morality, values and what we've all heard growing up from authority figures. I hope we can agree that the current system is a colossal failure. There are more people addicted to drugs than ever, more people dying because of turf wars by gangs and cartels, and more people getting their hands on synthetic drugs than ever.

The question should be this: what type of system should we try? What will work? Prohibition does not work, so perhaps we try regulation and control of drugs, just like alcohol as a previous poster said. We should let each state vote on if they want decriminalization or not, perhaps starting with marijuana and going from there.

Also, Stosh, if drugs were decriminalized, the government could regulate everything about them, just as they do with alcohol. This is why we can't get moonshine at Meijers - it has to go through a series of tests to be approved for public consumption. If drugs were decriminalized they would be a lot safer than they are now, and we wouldn't have the overdose problems that we have now.

[Stosh]

Also, Stosh, if drugs were decriminalized, the government could regulate everything about them, just as they do with alcohol. This is why we can't get moonshine at Meijers - it has to go through a series of tests to be approved for public consumption. If drugs were decriminalized they would be a lot safer than they are now, and we wouldn't have the overdose problems that we have now.

Yes, but you still can buy moonshine, right? I'd suspect that there's a correlation between the two, that you would not discover until after the fact. Simply put, control means nothing if someone is able to circumvent the system.

[blackmath]

Yes, but you still can buy moonshine, right? I'd suspect that there's a correlation between the two, that you would not discover until after the fact. Simply put, control means nothing if someone is able to circumvent the system.

Absolutely, but back in prohibition times people bought moonshine and bathtub gin all the time because sometimes that was the only thing around to drink, especially in the Southern and Western states. If someone were made really sick from drinking bad stuff or drank some watered down whiskey, who were they gonna go to, the cops? See what I mean? With moonshine and homemade booze theres no regulation and no assurance of quality either.

Nowadays people don't have to buy it, but yes, there is a fringe who buys that stuff - its just not nearly as widespread as it was in the 20s.

[Stosh]

The same way you control beer, wine, spirits, tobacco and firearms. Licensed dealers, proof of ID, background checks, etc. That way you keep it out of the hands of kids. Right now, it's easier for kids to get drugs than alcohol because it's on the black market. Legalize it and you have strict terms of sale.

"Oh hey mister, can you go in to the store and buy me a six pack? And an 8 ball too? Gee Thanks..." Right....

Where do you think we are getting the cash to imprison people for possessing drugs? Prison is a fuck of a lot more expensive than rehab. If you're willing to examine the massive amount of money we spend to imprison, jail, prosecute and punish drug users, you'll realize that rehab costs are a drop in the bucket. Although it could also be wrapped into a national health care system, which would control costs even more. And none of this mentions the millions -- heck, billions -- of dollars governments would suddenly be able to harness in vice taxes.

Your rehab costs will be as much or more as a prison sentence, since you'll have to lock up those with problems more often than they do now. The system now is focused on criminal offences, and does nothing to address use. If you incarcerate [[read rehab for you all) for 90 days, forcibly, and quadruple those that are involved, where's the savings? Scale is everything.

No, it just means that our law enforcement can focus on catching killers, rapists and other violent criminals instead of making around 850,000 arrests a year for marijuana. And then we don't have to spend the money to incarcerate them at the rape factory.

If you can't do the time, as they say... And what makes you think that there's no rapes in rehab? And I agree about Marijuana, it's coke and horse that I oppose. Don't confuse the two issues.

That is so stupid it doesn't even merit comment.

Some feel that they are owed this because of their addiction in other countries.

OK, so when you buy a bottle of wine, do you think it's OK that it's wine mixed with antifreeze that causes you to go blind? Or that it might be 180 proof moonshine that can explode? Or that it might not even be alcoholic? No, we rely on the government to ensure that certain products are what they purport to be.

This is so stupid it doesn't even merit comment. Feels good doesn't it?

But I'll comment anyway. Another layer of government control. how much will THAT cost?

[ggores]

As of yesterday there were one thousand six hundred thirty nine inmates incarcerated in the OCJ. Of those criminals, two hundred sixty two are in lock-up for marijuana/narcotics/drug possession. Of those criminals, three hundred forty eight are in kahootz for OUI. Wayne county numbers are not so easily obtained. I know ya'll like hard numbers and facts, so there ya go.

Edit: Make that 16 incarcerated for OUI. Can't even read my own chicken scratch anymore.

[maxx]

Treat it like alcohol.

But alcohol is not as addictive as heroin, cocaine or meth. Is there any safe amount of those drugs that will not lead to addiction?