Honestly-how many of these loft projects are viable ?

[Ocean2026]

Westin Book Cadillac Lofts $375,000 - $1.5 million

The Elliot Bldg [[ price not given) The Fowler is on the list but they seem to have gone belly up

There's a bunch in Brush Park all seem to start at $220k Edmont. Lamar, Corola?

Are there that many buyers in Detroit who can afford this kind of luxury condo and the taxes, in this economy?

http://www.downtowndetroit.org/ddp/h....htm#brushpark

[daddeeo]

Only people with more money than brains.

[Patrick]

Not very viable at all. It does seem to give the simcity/skyscrapercity folks some hope....

[LeannaM]

You would think some of them might have been turned into apartments by now. There's less short-term monetary gain with that, but it's probably more stable.

[Fnemecek]

Are there that many buyers in Detroit who can afford this kind of luxury condo and the taxes, in this economy?

In this economy? No.

Of course, one should point out that those project all started several years ago when the overall economy and housing market was very different. Most of those condos were originally sold - often pre-sold to qualified buyers before construction even began.

Unfortunately, there were a lot people who lost their job, couldn't sell their previous home, or whatever and had to back out. In almost every case, that person lost their non-refundable down payment.

Many of the condos have been converted to rentals. Some of them are still available for sale at a discounted price.

[Pcm]

I spoke to a real estate agent whose turf if in Detroit, specifically Midtown and Brush Park about this same topic.

According to him, most of the units in already developed properties are sold. Of course, many were bought to be sub-rented at a profit, but they were sold nonetheless.

And yes, I am aware that it is in his interest to overstate the market.

Food for thought.

[RickBeall]

I have been in the Mid Town Lofts. It was an old apartment on Canfield [[by the Deli, east of Woodward). They tore down everything but the front wall. The "Lofts" have all the ambiance of a garage. Concrete on all sides, no wood anywhere. The ceilings are low for lofts and you have the upper floors toil pipes sticking out of your ceiling. A nice water sound feature! You can't really cover them up because the ceilings are too low ... unless you wanted a low drop ceilling like a basement. Very quaint. The are now starting to use them as offices, since the DMC hospitals are always short of space.

[East Detroit]

That is what real lofts are. if you want quiet lofts, check out Royal Oak.

For carpetbaggers, I encourage a lot of investment in lofts. They will pay off big time!!

[DetroitDad]

Many of those lofts, from what I have seen, have not survived the test of time. They are essentially falling apart thanks to corner cutting and poor craftsmanship.

I can not and will not mention names [[if you know me, you have a good idea of what prominent places I am talking about), but those $399,000 Midtown and Downtown condos now selling in the five digits are still no deal. That is all not to mention, or taking into account that prices for some of them are facing the very real possibility of plummeting another 5%-30%.

And yes, I am still a huge Detroit supporter, and believe she is "coming back". But, those projects were "flip rich quick" scams, and the people that think they are getting them for deals are still, in some cases, fools. Be very careful with all Metro Detroit real estate right now!

[Ocean2026]

I was basically wondering how many people could afford those prices.

There are a lot cheaper ones 8200 and 8900 Jefferson and there is one nice lady on here who really loves her co-op near 8900.

[Patrick]

Many of those lofts, from what I have seen, have not survived the test of time. They are essentially falling apart thanks to corner cutting and poor craftsmanship.

I can not and will not mention names [[if you know me, you have a good idea of what prominent places I am talking about), but those $399,000 Midtown and Downtown condos now selling in the five digits are still no deal. That is all not to mention, or taking into account that prices for some of them are facing the very real possibility of plummeting another 5%-30%.

And yes, I am still a huge Detroit supporter, and believe she is "coming back". But, those projects were "flip rich quick" scams, and the people that think they are getting them for deals are still, in some cases, fools. Be very careful with all Metro Detroit real estate right now!

You aren't the first one that I have heard this from. A cousin of mine has a loft downtown and it was cheaply finished with sub-paar and sometimes average craftsmanship at best.

[Huggybear]

You have to love the schadenfreude that invariably pops up in threads like this. It's been suggested already [[the implicit statements that developers are corner-cutters and people who buy their projects are idiots) and will come out to the fore within a few posts. I don't own one of these places, don't work for one, and don't even know anyone who does either - but I will bring you this Earth-to-DetroitYes moment.

One, if high-priced, high-profit projects do not sell in marquis buildings, no new projects will get done - because there is no demonstrable ROI for the massive amount of capital required to renovate old buildings. Absent some track record of success in the previous projects, the Broderick, Whitney, 1001 Woodward, and what have you will molder until they fall apart.

Two, at a more micro level, you can fantasize all you want about dividing the cost of buying the Stott Bulding evenly and taking a $75,000 penthouse condo, but the reality is that the "ripoff" $1 million [[or whatever) penthouse will be subsidizing the cost of lower floor units that would not even sell for the cost of converting them to residential. And yes, I'm sure that everyone is sorry that you can't build a unit in a high rise in 2010 like you would a freestanding house in 1910. You can't even build a house like that for under a million now.

Three, if wealthy people don't move into the greater downtown area, it will never have the demographics to support any market-rate retail. You can raise as much of a hue and cry as you want, but unless there is a good median income in an area, retailers using traditional demographics won't touch it with a 10-meter cattle prod. And "the wealthy" are people who consume - compared to what they pay in city taxes - far less than the average person. Sure, there are scions and greedy people among them - but you can't automatically ascribe their investments to foolishness any more than you can automatically ascribe the poverty of Detroiters to their own laziness.

Take a minute and be happy that someone who makes at or above average income took a chance on Detroit and invested in it - whether that is a developer or the buyer of a residence downtown. Detroit is not going to make it on an economy of Detroit T-shirts and Miller High Life fueled by an ever-diminishing amount of the wealth in the city - nor on farming, windmills, fairies or unicorns. If it makes it, Detroit will make it on exporting something value-added and attracting capital [[and quasi-capital) investment - be it buildings, renovations, or money put into education. If you can't get that, you just wither away as money goes out but does not come in.

Sometimes you just have to be gracious about other people's failures. At least they tried. As Teddy Roosevelt once said, "far better is it to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much because they live in the grey twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat."

[adamjab19]

You aren't the first one that I have heard this from. A cousin of mine has a loft downtown and it was cheaply finished with sub-paar and sometimes average craftsmanship at best.

pretty much anything, anywhere was built this way after 2000.

Craftmanship was pushed aside for profits.

[Gannon]

The FD Lofts in Eastern Market were built with decent planning and VERY good materials.

My unit was one of the first ones finished, and nearly five years later it is holding up very well.

Sound transmission from one unit to the next was only occasionally a problem with only a few units in the building.

All told, they were done right, with the ownership expecting nearly those $200 per square foot prices that the units at the top of the Book-Cadillac were commanding.


From the very start, though, I knew those were unrealistic figures...although I know other higher-end developments were aiming for the same. That said, I'd MUCH rather have the Eastern Market space than some dim view of Woodward Avenue...especially now that the Dequindre Cut is almost up to EM.


At $200 per foot, my old unit would've been nearly $200,000...which I thought utterly ridiculous...something more like $140 to 160k even at that market peak was more reasonable when I moved in, but I have no idea what they would bottom out at now [[or soon).

Anything of that cost PLUS an association fee for a glorified warehouse, even a VERY cool one? Not quite convincing enough for me.


When I visited other loft developments that were supposed to be on the same level as the FD Lofts, I was terribly disappointed with the build quality. Lotsa unbelievably shitty, rushed conversions.


But I've spent a great deal of time out in Royal Oak at the supposed "lofts" at Eleven and Main...and they suck WAY more than anything that I've seen downtown [[except the units converted by Dennis what's-his-name). I had to basically re-engineer one friend's AC cold-air return ducting so it didn't roar through the entire unit, after seeing his face drop on the night he took possession and it fired up. [[my guess is the selling agent NEVER had the furnace/AC system turned on when he was checking it out)

Last time I was there, an Escalade lost its fancy-ass rims, too! In a building housing "unfinished open-air condos" [[faux lofts, even the beams in the hallway ceilings were fake) ranging from $200 to 400k [[my friend bought the penthouse, and it is the biggest albatross in his portfolio), only TWO blocks from the esteemed RO Police's station.



Cheers anyways...

[LodgeDodger]

I love the FD lofts.

[BrushStart]

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/section...Id=personaDest

Crain's reported that Lofts at Merchant Row are at 90% occupancy with more permanent-type residents. Another Crain's article from a few months ago reported that downtown's residential space was reaching capacity. My personal observations seem to confirm this. I think the market for lofts, whether good quality, poor quality, or otherwise is going to continue to rise. I also think that many unused buildings will be redeveloped, because where there is demand, supply will find a way. The uber-expensive condos [[such as the Book Cadillac for example) may remain low for a time, but as young professionals and executives live downtown and grow in their careers, the demand for luxury units will come back. Once the urban lifestyle movement catches up with the keeping up with Jones' mentality, the sky's the limit. If they renovated Broderick tomorrow, I think the units would move quickly with a little publicity. I say the same for Book Tower, and possibly the Stott. If downtown keeps developing a diversified "knowledge based" workforce, people will pay big premiums to live in the penthouse of building X. Trust me, I am one of these people and know plenty others like me. The desire for a luxury urban lifestyle is still alive and well in America.

[DetroitDad]

I disagree with some of my fellow posters. There were some articles not to long ago that mentioned that the ultra-high end units had buyers in the Rivertown [[Bing) project, Book-Cadillac, Mid-Med Lofts [[two units occupied), Fowler, and Broderick Tower. It was the mid priced units, which made up the bulk of many projects, that were not selling. From what I have seen with my own two eyes, there is still a market for low income units and ultra-luxury penthouses, but not enough to fill the amount of vacancies we would need to fill to reach a vibrant Downtown.

I'm not 100% sure that I, like the rest of America fully understood/understand what actually has happened and is continuing to happen. The middle class... those middle class jobs, and those who had two thirds disposable income, have been greatly reduced, and largely wiped out. As someone who I hold to very high regard had said to me at a dinner party[[and it took them saying it this bluntly for me to get it); "the middle class as we knew it has essentially been wiped out, it's just gone".

I still am having a hard time comprehending and believing that statement myself, so I really can not elaborate on it any further. I have found a lot of people arguing for or against that statement as fact, but when trying to dig up facts and learning for myself [[as everyone should do), I find a overwhelming amount of evidence that it may be a fact in many cities in this country, and a lot of people seem to also hold such views out in Internet-land. Moreover, we can see this right in our own family's bank accounts, and in local industries. The big three are full of jobs that once paid $20.00-$25.00+ hourly, now bringing in minimum wage or in the $9.00-$14.00 per hour range. That is huge!

[wolverine]

Of the hundreds of people I know, almost all are all making $20.00-$25.00+ hourly or else they are temporarily unemployed. Certainly they aren't spending all their money like they used to, but I wouldn't say the middle class is non-existent. Or...perhaps it's time to redefine what middle class is.....

[DetroitDad]

BrushStart,

People on the outside looking in have a better view to see the whole picture, which they may not see on the arena floor. You and I think alike, and when you said what I essentially have been saying, there were some very big flaws I saw in our way of thinking. I started writing you a reply, but it just got to long and complex. Please be careful acting on ideas based upon those theories.

[DetroitDad]

Of the hundreds of people I know, almost all are all making $20.00-$25.00+ hourly or else they are temporarily unemployed. Certainly they aren't spending all their money like they used to, but I wouldn't say the middle class is non-existent. Or...perhaps it's time to redefine what middle class is.....

You're right. Personnel views are not really accurate, as impressions may change from circle to circle. For example; you have implied [[I think) in past conversations, that you are older than me. Unemployment rates are much higher for younger citizens, as opposed to older citizens. The view may be extremely different to various demographics.

I am adding some footnotes stating some references for you Wolverine, and will be posting some links for you tomorrow.

[wolverine]

You're right. Personnel views are not really accurate, as impressions may change from circle to circle. For example; you have implied [[I think) in past conversations, that you are older than me. Unemployment rates are much higher for younger citizens, as opposed to older citizens. The view may be extremely different to various demographics.

I am adding some footnotes stating some references for you Wolverine, and will be posting some links for you tomorrow.

I'm assuming not much older since I've only been out of college for a year. But the fact that the majority of my classmates were able to obtain good paying jobs at salaries that have long been classified as middle class, I was questioning your point that it was non-existent. Has the middle class shrunk? Yes. I think it needs to be redefined however.

[MaxDetroit]

"The desire for a luxury urban lifestyle is still alive and well in America."

The question is this: Is Detroit still part of America? The current urban ideal appears to be somewhere in the sun belt with shiny new high rises gleaming in the 90 degree heat, right to work laws, and crowds of "highly paid" young professionals flocking to newly opened coffee houses and sushi bars. Concurrently, Detroit's image, helped along by the national media, morphed into that of a rusty holding tank for the "other", the great unwashed, the hopeless and the hapless, dinosaurs who still expect a living wage, savages who dine on wildlife, and most of all those who are not like "us" [[U.S.)

[lincoln8740]

Crain's reported that Lofts at Merchant Row are at 90% occupancy with more permanent-type residents. Another Crain's article from a few months ago reported that downtown's residential space was reaching capacity. .

Crain's always just asks for the occupancy rates and/or how many units were sold from the developers themselves. They never independently verify what is the truth and what is a bold face lie by the developer.

My favorite was from an article awhile back about the Ponchartrain. They actually bought hook, line and sinker when the previous owner stated that they had put several million dollars into the hotel.

This was obviously not true but they printed it as fact.

Or of course the famous "million dollar" condo that was sold at the Book Cadillac--what a bunch of crap that was!!!!!

Does anyone remember that pullout that Crain's featured awhile back regarding the median sales in Midtown? I can't remeber the exact number but it was so out of whack with reality that it was embarassing.

[fryar]

Where are the five-figure lofts in downtown?

I always took the middle class to be the equivalents of the bourgeoisie that brought about the French Revolution - business owners, professionals, union workers and those in their orbit who view themselves as stakeholders in society. Today's descendants of the printmakers and bookbinders of yesteryear. You can concern yourself with society-at-large as well if you're not in a union, a professional or a business owner, but when people's hopes and dreams of buying a vacation home up north or sending their kids to college are tied up in their property it comes to them more easily [[as opposed to a minimum wage earner, say, whose concerns may be more paycheck-to-paycheck).

I have been reading on here that downtown's occupancy rate is approaching the total supply, but I have been skeptical myself as well. I still see my old building, the Cadillac Square Apartments, advertising their short-term furnished apartment on CL for the same price it was available for 5 years ago, and Washington Square had availability the last time I checked. The lofts over Nikki's Place in Greektown were on CL for like $700 per month recently, and the ones on Woodward [[not sure if these are the sub-par ones discussed above) were available for like $850/mo and came with a $150 monthly credit toward your utilities. These are not the prices of a bubble. These are the prices that make one say hey, look, that's the showpiece district, Detroit is cheap.

[English]

Be very careful with all Metro Detroit real estate right now!

This is my instinct. I'm one of those potential buyers who is ruining the housing market right now -- I want to take the plunge, but I'm extremely wary.