Light Rail in Fast Lane

[Russix]

You have till Sept. 13th to tell 'em you want the train in the fast lane.
http://detroittransit.org/archived_blog.php?b=546

If you're in a hurry on the highway,
what lane do you drive in?

So why would we put Detroit's first RAPID transit
in the slow lane?

Yet one of the options for Woodward Light Rail [[pdf, page 8) is for the train to share the right lane with all other traffic for much of the trip. Mainline option B would leave the train stuck behind parallel-parking cars, boarding buses, double-parked trucks, right turn pile-ups, and other traffic delays, with no way to go around.

That's why TRU is actively advocating for the train to have its own lane wherever possible [[mainline option A).

Help make sure the region's first rapid transit line succeeds -
tell FTA and DDOT to make Woodward Light Rail true rapid transit.

The comment period ends soon [[Sept. 13) so act now!

Check out all the options and details at WoodwardLightRail.com.

[hamtown mike]

Wouldn't this require the unnecessary construction of "stops" or stations in the middle of the street instead of simply setting up shelters on the sidewalks?

[Detroitnerd]

Wouldn't this require the unnecessary construction of "stops" or stations in the middle of the street instead of simply setting up shelters on the sidewalks?

Sure, just like in the old days. Far from, unnecessary, though. How else are you gonna go faster than 15 MPH?

[bailey]

Wouldn't this require the unnecessary construction of "stops" or stations in the middle of the street instead of simply setting up shelters on the sidewalks?

Then why bother at all? Just make it a bus if it's going to be stuck behind busses and parking cars.

[hamtown mike]

I've always said that if not buried or elevated these things would simply glorified busses subject to the same traffic contraints as all traffic. is it possible that these are to take the place of the bus at some point?

[Hermod]

I keep getting shot down with this idea, but just run it up parallel side streets a block off Woodward. Close off these streets to all but local traffic. Give the motorman an electronic device to override traffic signals [[though how long before "pirate" devices find their way into the hands of motorists).

[ScienceFair]

The main difference that I would hope to see with the train vs. the bus is the mass loading of cars, similar to the people mover. If riders can pay at the stop then board the train all at once, it eliminates some of the delays that plague the buses. When five people are trying to board the bus and they're all dropping coins and trying to jam wrinkled bills into the cash box, it takes a while, not to mention the crackheads that hassle the drivers trying to ride for free.

[bailey]

The main difference that I would hope to see with the train vs. the bus is the mass loading of cars, similar to the people mover. If riders can pay at the stop then board the train all at once, it eliminates some of the delays that plague the buses. When five people are trying to board the bus and they're all dropping coins and trying to jam wrinkled bills into the cash box, it takes a while, not to mention the crackheads that hassle the drivers trying to ride for free.

That is all well and good, but what are you going to do about the bus that is stopped on the tracks ahead of the train that is dealing with the crackheads? What are you doing about double parkers and parallel parkers? Unless you remove buses completely from Woodward [[which i don't believe is planned) and remove parallel parking, placing the train on the curbside lanes seems like no improvement over a bus. It's completely dependent on traffic.

[Johnlodge]

Which lane will the unicorns run in?




[[I'm not really that cynical, but you know... Skipper's rule.)

[3rdDegreeBurns]

Center-of-street with dedicated lanes is the only way to go. Look at Spadania Ave. in Toronto for a good example. There the trains have their own signals and approaching trains get priority [[light waits for the train to pass before changing). Plus, if we build raised platform islands it actually makes Woodward more inviting for pedestrians by giving them a safe refuge while crossing a very wide road.

The point of building a light rail system is to provide a higher level of service. We can't do that if the trains get stuck in traffic. We don't need more than 2 stops per mile, the buses will still fill that role. Think about the future of the larger, regional system we are all hoping for. To be successful for commuters it needs to move fast. That means dedicated lanes, signal priority, pre-pay boarding, and 1-2 stops per mile. I don't see how that can be accomplished at the curbside.

[detmsp]

I've always said that if not buried or elevated these things would simply glorified busses subject to the same traffic contraints as all traffic. is it possible that these are to take the place of the bus at some point?

You should get out more. There are plenty of surface light rail systems that don't co-mingle with traffic and have right of way at all crossings.

[Russix]

Wouldn't this require the unnecessary construction of "stops" or stations in the middle of the street instead of simply setting up shelters on the sidewalks?

The cubside "stops" are as large as the ROW "stops" and plus there are twice as many curbside "stops".

[Hypestyles]

being in the center of Woodward would be a lot cooler, IMO.. i have written snail mail and email to the folks in charge..

[Russix]

Awesome Hypestyles, spread the word too!

[Downtown Dave]

I think pedestrian safety - people shifting to/from road center to curb - is a BIG issue here and a big negative for middle-of-the-street stations/loading. In Detroit, people seem to cross where and when they want - and to get to mid-street stations there will be MORE "shortcutters."

I think vehicles will get the hang of not pausing or blocking rails - or risk fines or damage. Good design of curbside parking and pulloffs will also keep vehicles from blocking the rail path. Other cities, particularly in Europe, "share" transit space. We're capable of learning that here, so that the trains can move at a steady pace.

[Detroitnerd]

I think pedestrian safety - people shifting to/from road center to curb - is a BIG issue here and a big negative for middle-of-the-street stations/loading. In Detroit, people seem to cross where and when they want - and to get to mid-street stations there will be MORE "shortcutters."

Umm ... most of the jaywalkers are crossing the long block lengths in between crosswalks. Whereas islands will be at ... crosswalks. We have to stop thinking about this in terms of causing problems for traffic. Remember, light rails takes hundreds of cars per hour off the street, freeing up its use for emergency vehicles, taxis, pedestrians, bicyclists, heck, even jaywalkers.

I think vehicles will get the hang of not pausing or blocking rails - or risk fines or damage.

Awww, our poor motorists. Let's continue to set up the city just for them.

Good design of curbside parking and pulloffs will also keep vehicles from blocking the rail path.

So will locating it in the fast lane.

Other cities, particularly in Europe, "share" transit space. We're capable of learning that here, so that the trains can move at a steady pace.

Yes, they also don't subsidize cars or fret over poor motorists the way we do [[and seem intent to keep on doing) over here.

[Detroit Stylin]

From what I see on that PDF its going to be separarated from traffic int the median anyway...

[ASR89]

At the Woodward Light Rail project site, I also submitted comments to the folks in charge. I expressed my strong preference for the light rail to be running in the middle of Woodward. It's clear why median-running is better than curbside. When I was returning from the morning session of the recent project meeting, I saw first-hand what would slow down the trains: There was a police car parked where the trains would run if curbside. Unlike a bus, the trains can't go around.

During the public comments part of the meeting, it was about 50/50 people expressing their preferences of median vs. curbside. I was quite surprised. There were a few comments regarding safety. I think as long as there are crosswalks and lights at each station, crossing the street won't be a problem. Also, say you're going from the 7 Mile station down to Comerica Park. You would have to cross the street anyway, and double the lanes!

[bailey]

Perhaps off topic, but what exactly is the plan for getting around campus martius and Woodward between GCP and Campus martius. It's much narrower there.

[Detroit Stylin]

it is the last option alignment on that PDF. One station @ Michigan and Woodward and one station @ larned....

[bailey]

it is the last option alignment on that PDF. One station @ Michigan and Woodward and one station @ larned....

ah. thanks. I didn't realize that was still up for debate. Is there any piece of this that is actually decided? I mean seriously, how long is this going to be talked about and commented on before it's shovel ready?

p.s. I didn't realize trains could make right angle turns like that.

[ASR89]

Perhaps off topic, but what exactly is the plan for getting around campus martius and Woodward between GCP and Campus martius. It's much narrower there.

There are three options Downtown - one that goes straight down Woodward and two that branch off to Washington Blvd and do a loop back. I'm a bit torn on the downtown alignment. In an ideal world, it would be great if the line went underground in the CBD. [[Still in an ideal world) Lines on other major spokes like Gratiot, Michigan Avenue and Grand River would terminate at an underground hub around Campus Martius. Unfortunately, that would cost a boatload of money.

The Woodward alignment in Downtown supposedly will co-mingle in traffic. I know it would cost more money than just adding rails and overhead wires, but to keep the trains running at least in semi-dedicated lanes, they could widen Woodward a lane in each direction, have the trains run in the centre, stop at Campus Martius and then in the grassy median south of CM.

With Washington Blvd alignment options, the trains would most likely run in the median [[dedicated lanes) until Congress and Larned. If you look at the pictures, it shows stops like a block away from each other though.

I'd have to go with the straight Woodward CBD alignment. There's less traffic, turns and stops to deal with. Also, while the People Mover does a great job of transporting people, it travels on the outskirts downtown. The PM Cadillac Centre stop is close, but it would be nice to have some rapid transit that drops passengers off directly at Campus Martius.

[Johnlodge]

The people in this functioning, bustling downtown seemed to be able to do it, and there's a lot more of them than I ever see in downtown Detroit on a workday.

http://www.shorpy.com/node/7136

[Detroit Stylin]

lol...JL you are the epitome of a smart ass, you do know that right?

[fryar]

1) Email sent. I wholeheartedly agree with the proponents of putting it in the center median. I don't see those safety concerns as being a big deal. People figure out how to get around the roundabout-with-stop-lights at CM, they'll figure out that there are pedestrians crossing the street when the train pulls to a stop.
2) Who cares about options 1-3 for the downtown layout, whether one layout is more convenient to CM and another goes to Greektown or not. The key is getting from GCP or below up to New Center, everything else is PM stuff. These are not details worth getting lost in.