Woodward Project

**tangerine** · August-31-10, 01:13 AM

All,

I'd really welcome your feedback on a video I posted to youtube today. It's based on speech I gave at Automation Alley last year promoting the idea of a more walkable urban core on Woodward from downtown Detroit to [[don't hit me) Birmingham.

It's very critical of our region in the first half but in the second half offers a hopeful view of the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6-eAGjU6Is

I hope you find it provocative and interesting. The pictures look better if you use a larger screen size.

Tangerine

**Gistok** · August-31-10, 01:33 AM

Wow.... I'm still numb.... great job!!

**Detroit Stylin** · August-31-10, 10:05 AM

EXCELLENT job!

**Downtown Dave** · August-31-10, 10:22 AM

Agree! Who did you present this to - and what was the response? Did L. Brooks like it?

**3rdDegreeBurns** · August-31-10, 10:25 AM

Very insightful and clearly put case. I remember hearing a stat somewhere that close to 10% of the population of the state lives within 1 mile of Woodward Ave.

**Johnlodge** · August-31-10, 10:30 AM

I agree with the message 100%. I think people are coming around, but who knows. I live right in your "new" city, and really enjoy it.

**mikeinmotown** · August-31-10, 10:57 AM

Great job!

**cman710** · August-31-10, 12:47 PM

Tangerine, your video is nicely done, and I think it raises some interesting ideas. Since you asked for feedback, I will give both positive and constructive feedback. Please do not take any of my constructive criticism in a negative light. I offer it to possibly give you some new ideas, and suggestions. Of course, feel free to disregard anything you would like.

Positives:

1. I like the way that you use the beginning of the presentation to provide some context. Without understanding the past, it is difficult to know how we got to where we are, and how we might move forward.

2. The presentation is nicely illustrated.

3. I like your "Woodward Corridor" idea. This provides a creative way to try to get beyond the traditional city/suburban divide. It also makes sense, given the degree to which population is located around Woodward, as well as the real assets that the Woodward Corridor has going for it. The challenge with implementing an approach like this is getting people to see beyond city lines. Perhaps a state authorized authority could be given powers to improve the Woodward corridor, and help avoid the problems caused by jurisdictional boundaries.

Constructive Criticism

1. One of the slides implies that suburbs began to be built only after World War II. This is a small point, but while suburbs exploded in growth only after WWII, suburbs around the country began to form well before then, in the several decades before the war. Suburban growth did not become significant until after the war, which was probably your point. It might be best to clarify your wording, though.

2. I take issue with your claim that highly educated, creative people do not come to Detroit because there is no lively urban living. Jobs really do matter, which is why many of the country's fastest growing cities [[Austin, Houston, etc.) have grown rapidly despite being very car-oriented. There has been much academic debate regarding these points, and I think that some acknowledgment of that debate would increase the credibility of the presentation, even if you do ultimately come out on the "creative class" side of the debate.

3. In future presentations, it would be fruitful for you to try to identify specific problems to implementing your views, and how planners, government officials, etc., might overcome them. With all the jurisdictional issues that would come up in implementing the project, there will be a great need for creative but practical thinking. How can we provide incentives to suburban and urban leaders to cooperate?

Hope this helps! Again, I applaud your creativity and hope you will continue to show us the results of your work.

**Doma** · August-31-10, 02:29 PM

I thought this was really excellent, thank you!

**stasu1213** · August-31-10, 06:49 PM

Excellent presentation! I had been saying all along that the streets of Detroit including Woodward are designed for the automobile. Most strip malls that had flourished up in the past ten years such as The Model T in Highland Park on Woodward, Jefferson Village on East Jefferson in Detroit have there stores set way behind an extra large parking lot. The idea of car friendly shopping places was still on the minds of developers, city planners, and city leaders during this time. Elected officials, leaders, planners, and developers who don't have the automobile company's best interest in heart and in wallet could bring this region to a more pedestrial friendly region that it has the potential to be. City leaders should stop letting any slumlord buy up properties on the Woodward strip in Detroit. Case in point; The Kresge Shop. Have more quality boutiques up Woodward in Detroit as you do on Old Woodward in Birmingham, Main Street in Royal Oak, The Village on Kercheval Avenue in Grosse Pointe, etc. Develope more sidewalk stores with extra wide driveway that could take cars to the gigantic parking lots in the rear. Get planners and politicians who are not in the back pocket of the Big 3.

**Gistok** · August-31-10, 07:48 PM

... sigh... now if only WSU would take note of the "walkability" part of this presentation and stop decimating Woodward Ave. retail.

**canuck** · August-31-10, 07:53 PM

You did a great nutshell job of explaining the fine points of Detroit's demise. It's also eerie how graphic the driving, parking, right of way for personal vehicles defines Detroit in opposition to more traditional cities. Of course, the automotive capital has paid a big price for spreading out and gouging its downtown and eventually, the neighborhoods. I like that you evacuate the race issue not because you negate it, but rather than add to the stew of mistakes, you focus on issues of urban planning or lack thereof due to the powerful influence of the car industry. That to me is more relevant. What strikes me also is how lucid you are about the inhospitable streetscapes that evolved
from this and why it is important to regain a foothold on Detroit's commercial main street in order to imagine another city. This requires a very different view of commercial spaces and strict zoning measures to ensure nothing detracts from the desirable goal of density and walkability. It is obvious how Woodward is paramount in rebuilding a community of neighborhoods connected by transit and denser commercial streets from what you show and also it connects Detroiters to the long chain of development that made their city great, then not so great.

The point you make about regional responsibility strikes me as the crux of the problem that faces Detroit. The sense of abandonment may be culturally ingrained and the thought that one could walk long lengths of Woodward to be summoned by good shops and a vibrant street life may be difficult for suburbanites and Detroiters alike to fathom, but it sure is enticing. I wish you good luck working on this worthwhile project, as you say Detroiters deserve better unless of course they choose to turn the other cheek every time a calamity piles up on another calamity.

**canuck** · August-31-10, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Gistok

... sigh... now if only WSU would take note of the "walkability" part of this presentation and stop decimating Woodward Ave. retail.

Exactly! The destruction of these types of buildings is characteristic of Detroit's ghost town legacy. University leaders keep phasing out vital pockets of pedestrian activity when they should increase it. They will honor Subway's lease, the most banal restaurant chain in the universe in lieu of anything attractive. Wayne State should fund businesses around campus and profit from renting out street level shops. Why is Wayne State not part of the solution?

**wolverine** · August-31-10, 08:23 PM

I really enjoyed this and it makes the point clear. Sometimes people need these comparisons placed in front of them to get the point across.

It's the reason I left the Detroit area. I wanted to be in a city, a REAL city that has it all and doesn't have to defend itself for what it lacks. What's a shame is by going to an exciting place, I've left a very beautiful state behind. Michigan is so rich with its vacation destinations, beaches, lakes, and forests. Just imagine if a booming city were there as well, it would be the state that has it all. Michigan has proven in places that it has the potential to do things correctly. I look at Grand Rapids, Ann Arbor, and downtown Birmingham as good case studies that are close to home. Visit these communities more often if you don't.

**tvaspen** · August-31-10, 09:57 PM

I applaud you, I am going directly to the website to see what i can do to help.

**tangerine** · August-31-10, 10:40 PM

Thanks everyone... and cman I appreciated your thoughtful comments.

I think the one tangible think I want to drive is to get Beaumont Hospital to develop 13 Mile and Woodward in a walkable fashion. They own the land and with the volume of people coming in and out it seems like a no-brainer. Plus it would help fill in the gap between Birmingham and RO. There is a plan in the video for that intersection that I paid to have done with my own money. I took it to the hospital and they politely listened but I don't think I had any impact. I'm hoping that this video wil reach and l inspire people associated with the hospital to reconsider.

I think this would be an important and obtainable accomplishment.

If you read this and you know an executive at Beaumont, please send them a link to the video.

The second thing I hope to do is to support mass transit. I think a light rail or express busses or something on the Woodward corridor would make a big difference.

The final thing

**canuck** · August-31-10, 11:31 PM

Originally Posted by tangerine

Thanks everyone... and cman I appreciated your thoughtful comments.

I think the one tangible think I want to drive is to get Beaumont Hospital to develop 13 Mile and Woodward in a walkable fashion. They own the land and with the volume of people coming in and out it seems like a no-brainer. Plus it would help fill in the gap between Birmingham and RO. There is a plan in the video for that intersection that I paid to have done with my own money. I took it to the hospital and they politely listened but I don't think I had any impact. I'm hoping that this video wil reach and l inspire people associated with the hospital to reconsider.

I think this would be an important and obtainable accomplishment.

If you read this and you know an executive at Beaumont, please send them a link to the video.

The second thing I hope to do is to support mass transit. I think a light rail or express busses or something on the Woodward corridor would make a big difference.

The final thing

Yes Tangerine, I will look closely at what you proposed and follow your lead. Any institution with a large potential footprint should look forward to pioneering a new vital Detroit. There may be time still for Beaumont and WSU to reverse their decision and maybe pull the plug in spite of penalties paid to contractors. The basic idea is to shame the board of governors into doing something positive instead of churning another impotent city block.

**mb1** · August-31-10, 11:40 PM

Great presentation and you provide a great example on the way forward for the city and suburbs to work together to build a better city for everyone. This city and region has enormous amount of untapped potential!!!

**Gistok** · September-01-10, 02:19 AM

Originally Posted by tangerine

Thanks everyone... and cman I appreciated your thoughtful comments.

I think the one tangible think I want to drive is to get Beaumont Hospital to develop 13 Mile and Woodward in a walkable fashion. They own the land and with the volume of people coming in and out it seems like a no-brainer. Plus it would help fill in the gap between Birmingham and RO. There is a plan in the video for that intersection that I paid to have done with my own money. I took it to the hospital and they politely listened but I don't think I had any impact. I'm hoping that this video wil reach and l inspire people associated with the hospital to reconsider.

I think this would be an important and obtainable accomplishment.

If you read this and you know an executive at Beaumont, please send them a link to the video.

Tangerine... Beaumont could take a page from St. John Hospital...

St. John did a wonderful job of incorporating itself into a rebuilt Moross/Mack [[Pointe Plaza) shopping center and several office towers. Although it's not flush with the street, neither was its' predecessor... Mack/7 shopping center. St. John did a great job incorporating this shopping center into its' main medical center campus.

And future plans for St. John [[once the economy gets better) include a hotel, likely on the former Woods Theatre site... which will likely mean that the hotel will be flush with the street.

**1953** · September-01-10, 09:26 AM

Bravo, bravo!

**casscorridor** · September-01-10, 02:25 PM

Good ideas all around. But I do not think Royal Oak or Birmingham counts or should count as the urban "core" of the region. Only the center of Detroit should count, and a core shouldn't be linear. Woodward is just one one the main spokes radiating from the true core, not the core itself. Michigan Ave in Dearborn, for example, has far more institutions and "anchors" than Woodward in Oakland, including UM-Dearbornn and the Henry Ford. The true core consists of Downtown-Midtown-New Center, Corktown-Mexicantown, Eastern Market and Rivertown. There is much more to the core than Woodward. We need to build a true core with continuous vibrant neighborhoods side by side in a cluster surrounding Downtown on all sides. Royal Oak and Birmingham might pass as urban in Metro Detroit but not in real urban cities.

**Gistok** · September-01-10, 02:46 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Good ideas all around. But I do not think Royal Oak or Birmingham counts or should count as the urban "core" of the region. Only the center of Detroit should count, and a core shouldn't be linear. Woodward is just one one the main spokes radiating from the true core, not the core itself. Michigan Ave in Dearborn, for example, has far more institutions and "anchors" than Woodward in Oakland, including UM-Dearbornn and the Henry Ford. The true core consists of Downtown-Midtown-New Center, Corktown-Mexicantown, Eastern Market and Rivertown. There is much more to the core than Woodward. We need to build a true core with continuous vibrant neighborhoods side by side in a cluster surrounding Downtown on all sides. Royal Oak and Birmingham might pass as urban in Metro Detroit but not in real urban cities.

Casscorridor... perhaps you missed one of the main themes in this thread..."walkability".

The Henry Ford and UM Dearborn are only "walkable" once you DRIVE THERE... whereas Royal Oak and Birmingham both rate very high on the "walkability" scale.

**casscorridor** · September-01-10, 03:07 PM

So most people don't drive to Birmingham or Royal Oak? That is news to me. I must be completely delusional because as far as I know the only people that don't are workers taking the bus from Detroit.

Bham and RO are only walkable once you drive there as well. Or if you are the tiny minority that bus. No different than Dearborn, which is served by DDOT and SMART buses.

**casscorridor** · September-01-10, 03:19 PM

Institutions are far more important that a few boutiques. Large institutions generate high volumes of traffic. Much more potential in Dearborn in terms or transforming it to be urban than RO or Bham because this reason. Not to mention, soon any more density buildup in RO will require to demolish smaller buildings and single family homes, and I doubt that will happen, especially without a rail line or major anchors beyond the Zoo. The pontential is limited.

**Gistok** · September-01-10, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

So most people don't drive to Birmingham or Royal Oak? That is news to me. I must be completely delusional because as far as I know the only people that don't are workers taking the bus from Detroit.

Bham and RO are only walkable once you drive there as well. Or if you are the tiny minority that bus. No different than Dearborn, which is served by DDOT and SMART buses.

Who said anything about driving there? The main theme of the video is living in the corridor and walkability in the area... it's hard to picture living in Dearborn and not needing a car.