WSU worst in nation

[maxx]

at graduating black students, that is, according to the latest report.

http://www.mlive.com/news/detroit/in...wrence_te.html

I would think that the fact that fewer black students graduate from college than white students is not new news. I wonder if WSU has tried to ascertain the reasons why students drop out. I know it can be difficult to reach people in Detroit. Some change addresses frequently and their phones are not always working. Still there should be
some basic information WSU would have like what year in school did they drop out and what reasons did they give at the time? What were their grades like at that time?
Did they have the necessary skills to enter college to begin with? Colleges should not be expected to make up for 12 years of either poor scholarship or poor instruction.
The suburban schools I go to want to give the students as many positive experiences, that is successes, in schools as possible. I'm sure this is true in the Detroit schools too. Unfortunately, the students don't all have parents making sure that they do their homework or able to help them . So much is expected of kindergartners today. If a child isn't reading or writing to a certain standard, they may have to repeat kindergarten. The public school near us wanted to hold my daughter back in kindergarten for social reasons. She could read before she entered kindergarten.

In elementary school, classes are created in math and reading according to ability. This discrimination is probably necessary but it may create a mindset that less should be expected of certain students. By high school there are many classes where students are more interested in playing power games than in doing school work so less is required of them. Again, I think parental expectations are really the prime motivator for most students in school.

[pffft]

And yet they dropped the English requirement and graduated Reverend David Murray...

[Hermod]

One of the hard choices to make. Do you relax admission standards to aid more disadvantaged to get into college accepting that they may have a harder time graduating or do you screen out the "probable failures" in the admissions process?

While this is unfortunately often a "black-white problem" the philosophy is applicable across the whole realm of academically disadvantaged students. If I require a combined SAT score of 1400 for admission to my college, my graduation rates will be high. If I accept lower qualifications, my graduation rates will go down unless I lower my classroom standards and become a diploma mill.

[papillonaquatique]

The same admission and graduation standards should apply to everyone. However maybe Detroit just has a really terrible school system like Florida does and just likes to pass kids through to boost their ratings in order to attain more funding regardless if the kid knows what they need to in order to progress to the next level. You can't build a home without a solid foundation and if the kid does not have it and has no way of getting it then they are doomed to failure. In Florida if you miss so many days of school they will retain you and quite possibly jail your parents for contributing to the delenquency of a minor or they will send you to a special school for troubled children and send a bus to your home and make you go. None of it really serves a purpose and is only to make themselves look like they are trying to help. I find that the main reasons kids drop out of school is due to social pressures or that they have no support at home or at the school. If the schools were better funded and were a source of hope for the students then they would be more likely to stay in school.

[firstandten]

I have always considered WSU as one of those schools that is easy to get into but hard to graduate from. Unlike a school like U of M which is more likely to screen out people they don't think will make it during the application process.

Many black kids especially from DPS schools are totally ill-prepared to deal with any four year college much less WSU. In many cases its not there fault, they were some of the top students at there school. What they don't realize until they get to a school like WSU is that there studies were so dumbed down that they face a up hill climb as soon as they walk on campus.

Its a tough call. Either WSU lives with current admissions and graduation standards and lives with the graduation rates, or maybe with more remedial programs which I'm not really for. Or be more selective in the admissions process which flies in the face of what an urban public school is about.

[bailey]

One of the hard choices to make. Do you relax admission standards to aid more disadvantaged to get into college accepting that they may have a harder time graduating or do you screen out the "probable failures" in the admissions process?

While this is unfortunately often a "black-white problem" the philosophy is applicable across the whole realm of academically disadvantaged students. If I require a combined SAT score of 1400 for admission to my college, my graduation rates will be high. If I accept lower qualifications, my graduation rates will go down unless I lower my classroom standards and become a diploma mill.

Its not a "hard choice". If WSU wants to be taken seriously as an institution of higher learning it needs to tighten up its admission standards. The 'white' grad rates are pretty abysmal too. Serving an "urban mission" or whatever the term they want to use, and having standards is not mutually exclusive. What they are doing NOW is criminal and a huge disservice to the urban mission they claim they are upholding. They are stealing money from those that have no business in a university by admitting them and setting them up for failure. WSU needs to partner with WCCCD. Set up a remedial program that gets these kids and adults the tools they need to go to a university...then admit them. But watering down the degree further is exactly the wrong choice, sadly that seems to be the direction they will head.

[Hermod]

If the schools were better funded and were a source of hope for the students then they would be more likely to stay in school.

What is the correlation between dollars per student and achievement?

[jt1]

What is the correlation between dollars per student and achievement?

Depends what those dollars are going to. If they are dollars for aid it will probably help significantly. WSU is a commuter school. Many students take classes when they can afford them [[either financially or having available time).

The fact that the black population in metro Detroit is much poorer than the white population plays a role in this. They need to look at how many kids fail out and how many have to stop taking classes due to financial/family issues. The means to help are very different if causes for not graduating are academic or socio-economic.

I think this likely speaks as much to the wealth/race demographics in metro Detroit.

[mwilbert]

People interested in this topic might want to take a look at the Washington Monthly's annual college guide--one of the things they look at is expected vs actual graduation rate, and they also look at other ways in which colleges perform or don't.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/col...ent_kind_2.php

[majohnson]

WSU has done its part by conducting reading, math, [[science?) testing for incoming students, placing the students accordingly, and by offering remedial coursework.
Notice the figures use six year graduation rates.
Many students are not able to graduate with four years.
I believe much of the underlying issues are related to the same factors preventing students from finishing within four years.
A high percentage of WSU students will require 5+ years to graduate, add on a year of remedial coursework for DPS students and you have a significant portion that will require 6+ years to graduate.

WSU requires 120credits to graduate. 12 credits is a full time coursework load. That requires 5 years.
120 credits /12 credits per semester /2 semsesters per year, also chances of finishing with exactly 120 credits are low
Many WSU students and black students in particular are working at least part time.
120credits with 9 credit semesters is 14 semesters or just under seven years.
I started at WSU with a AS from Macomb CC. It took me 8 semesters at WSU to finish my degree.
WSU's day time students frequently work part time and the evening students work full time.

The 6 year graduation rate is not relevant at WSU just as the University industry has learned the 4 year graduation rate is not relevant at schools like MSU.

WSU has great undergraduate credentials. Check out the school program by program.
WSU graduate schools: law number two in the state, medical world renown

I attended DPS, Macomb CC, WSU [[political science), and now WSU law.
Admission standards are not the issue. The six year figure is not a good measure because WSU serves full/part time working students. And many DPS students will require one or two semesters of remedial coursework adding a year or so to the black figures.

WSU is serving African Americans very well.
Larger issues are:
1. enrolling a higher percentage of [[African Americans) students into WSU
2. ensuring our [[DPS) public school systems prepare students and ensure they don't need a year of remedial coursework
3. informing students so they make life decisions that allow them to attend school full time [[affects lifetime earnings, school loan balance [[seven years of student loan interest), age available to start family)

[Hermod]

WSU requires 120credits to graduate. 12 credits is a full time coursework load. That requires 5 years.

WTF? When I was an undergraduate [[not WSU), my eight semesters of engineering ranged from 18 semester hours to 22 semester hours plus add in a few non-credit, mandatory classes in there.

Even the liberal arts majors were taking 17 SH a semester.

12 SH is not a full load for a full-time student.

[Gannon]

LOL, Hermod...that was my first observation of the oddities of the collegiate system.


12 credit hours has been the 'norm' for minimum full time status since the early 80s at least...but everyone I know who made it in four years went wild with 16-20 per...and STILL always had 'one more' class to take at the end of their run.

But the costs are determined using that 12 hour benchmark...so the odds are stacked against anyone who has to work during their college years to get by.


There is WAY more to this story...

[detmsp]

I would guess there are two things at work here. One is that DPS is doing an incredibly poor job of preparing kids to succeed in college, and the other is that Detroit is so economically depressed that students routinely drop out for financial reasons.

[DanFromDetroit]

I chuckled at the article's reference to Lawrence Tech having an even higher disparity than Wayne. I remember the students on full-rides sponsored by the society of black engineers sitting around in a pack, never going to class and being generally disruptive. Sure there were some exceptions but I was appalled at the lack of work ethic they displayed compared to those of us who actually paid for our schooling. I guess that attitude really translates to graduation rates.

[Hypestyles]

so if Mrs. Karmanos gets her wish and wins a seat at the board of governors table, what would that mean on school policy?

[Patrick]

Well it seems that WSU is at a crossroads. Do they want to become a powerhouse research school or do they want to remain an urban insititution catering to the inner city? It is highly difficult to do both and it seems like Wayne State's mission has been blurred.

[gibran]

the reality should focus on partnerships with local community colleges...if a student needs a year of remediational classes to make it then they could be concurrently taught...many student's lose interest in taking to many pre math or pre-english classes [[even if they need it). General education classes with some entry level major classes can catch each students attention...and give them the assistence they need to equal the playing field...but Education at the college level needs to be driven by the desire to learn critcial thinking vs passing tests..and weeding people out...some students are late bloomers and some need mentors...these are much more important investments that "one and done" ...

[maxx]

People interested in this topic might want to take a look at the Washington Monthly's annual college guide--one of the things they look at is expected vs actual graduation rate, and they also look at other ways in which colleges perform or don't.

http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/col...ent_kind_2.php

SO how did WSU fare according to Washington Monthly? I looked at WSU's college portrait and didn't really find anything pertaining to this topic. It's great that WSU students serve the community, but it doesn't change the fact that so few black students are graduating.

Here is WA Monthly's rankings. I see UM ranked among the top ten and the U. of Chicago ranked 12th.
WSU didn't rank in the first 100. It ranked 162 .
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/col...rsity_rank.php

Here's a short explanation of their methodology.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/col...y_4year_co.php

[English]

I have always considered WSU as one of those schools that is easy to get into but hard to graduate from. Unlike a school like U of M which is more likely to screen out people they don't think will make it during the application process.

Many black kids especially from DPS schools are totally ill-prepared to deal with any four year college much less WSU. In many cases its not there fault, they were some of the top students at there school. What they don't realize until they get to a school like WSU is that there studies were so dumbed down that they face a up hill climb as soon as they walk on campus.

Its a tough call. Either WSU lives with current admissions and graduation standards and lives with the graduation rates, or maybe with more remedial programs which I'm not really for. Or be more selective in the admissions process which flies in the face of what an urban public school is about.

This is exactly my take on the situation. On the other end of the spectrum, WSU has long been one of the top 10 or 20 producers of African American PhDs and MDs in the nation.

[mwilbert]

The Washington Monthly data basically indicate that WSU does a poor jobs of graduating people, and a good job of getting them to the PhD level. I'd like to think that improving their performance on getting people to graduate wouldn't have to conflict with getting people advanced degrees.

[fryar]

My 2 cents are instituting a work-around, like remedial classes or pre-college prep at community colleges or what-have-you, is preferable to sacrificing quality and, ultimately, reputation.

[Zimm]

partnering with community colleges is not really going to be a solution for a lot of the students. i've taken about 20 credit hours at OCC's Southfield campus recently and the former DPS students stick out like sore thumbs-completely lost in an entry level course [[no pre-requisites) and generally unable to function at an academic level i would expect from a competent middle schooler.

and those are the ones that stick around. i'd guess there was a 75% dropout/fail rate among black students in my classes last fall, and from conversations had and overheard, i'd guess that nearly all were products of DPS or Southfield schools.
to break it down further, i'd say there was a 90% drop/fail out rate among black students under 25. over 25, i'd say it was more like 50%, and these were generally the better equipped [[and at times excellent) students.

keep in mind, these were mostly entry-level courses with no pre-requisites, so anyone can take them, so there's generally a higher attrition rate than more advanced courses. lots of middle aged folks returning to a classroom for the first time in 20 years, or 20-somethings looking for something that holds their interest better than their part time job at the cell phone store. but they're generally quite easy courses-the kind that should be a breeze for anyone with a decent high school background and any idea of how to function in an academic environment.

if that's happening at OCC, i'd hate to see what it's like at a more rigorous academic environment like WSU.

[fryar]

Point taken, but aren't these classmates of yours from a subset of the African-American population that did not get into WSU in the first place, and so perhaps not a suitable proxy for those that did get in?

[Zimm]

Point taken, but aren't these classmates of yours from a subset of the African-American population that did not get into WSU in the first place, and so perhaps not a suitable proxy for those that did get in?

from my anecdotal knowledge of WSU's admission policies, they don't seem to be significantly different from OCC's. do you have a HS diploma or GED? can you pay your tuition? i imagine WSU also requires an ACT/SAT result of some sort.

i know they both have a lot of students with much better qualifications, but they both seem very willing to admit lots of those on the low end of the academic scale-and those would seem to be the problem at both institutions.

[fryar]

Larger issues are:
1. enrolling a higher percentage of [[African Americans) students into WSU
2. ensuring our [[DPS) public school systems prepare students and ensure they don't need a year of remedial coursework
3. informing students so they make life decisions that allow them to attend school full time [[affects lifetime earnings, school loan balance [[seven years of student loan interest), age available to start family)

Majohnson, somehow I missed your post earlier. I think these sound like relevant suggestions. I'm particularly interested in #3, though like some others, I don't agree it's reasonable for 7 or more years to be anything but the exception to the rule for a full-time undergrad, but that's a side-point.

Setting aside the black-white gap for a moment, those graduation rates are atrocious, at least with regard to your run-of-the-mill full-time or potential full-time 16/17/18- year old frosh. I am guessing it is a combination of two issues. For one, people are working their way through college and so taking longer to graduate. Also, people may simply be dropping out.

Any thoughts on which it is? I didn't attend college in MI, I have no feel for any of this. The only guy I ever knew that I knew had attended WSU had gone there as a full-time undergrad straight out of high school, sort of your stereotypical scenario, so I tend to think that's who goes there [[and that's who these statistics are about). If a lot of the WSU'ers are part-time, night school type people, and moreso the black student body, there could be no issue whatsoever.