I submit to you two of today's Freep articles

DetroitPole · August-15-10, 01:20 PM

The bad and the good...

So let's start with the good:
http://www.freep.com/article/2010081...bzxQ/gwDdGw%3D

People seem quick to forget how dense Detroit really is, given the "suburban style"[[I do not agree with this term) layout of many Detroit neighborhoods. Some of those neighborhoods are actually the densest on this map, including mine. Props to SW Solutions, too. At least somebody has been paying attention. Lord knows it hasn't been the administrations.

http://www.freep.com/article/2010081...nsform-Detroit

This strikes me as moronic. I know it is uncharitable to say, since this road to hell is paved with the best intentions, but I'm SO sick of these PR campaigns. This is going to be another "Say nice things about Detroit" with the puppy with the gun to his head. How about, "It's a great time in Detroit?" - whatever happened to that one? This Curtis also rubs me the wrong way - "She calls herself a Detroiter because she spends a lot of time in the city and identifies with it." oh, really, is that all it takes? I spend a lot of time in Canada and identify with them to some extent, but that doesn't make me a fucking Canadian. I spend a lot of time in my garage but that doesn't make me a car. Want to really do something, lady? Buy a house and then you don't have to pretend to be from Detroit anymore.

I think these articles provide a good contrast - these demographic mappers and organizations like SW Solutions who have been working quietly behind the scenes for years to plan for the city's future and keep it afloat in the present - verses high-profile goofballs who come in with much bravado but it never amounts to much.

**douglasm** · August-15-10, 01:33 PM

Makes one long for the KDB Teens.....

**detmsp** · August-15-10, 01:41 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

"She calls herself a Detroiter because she spends a lot of time in the city and identifies with it." oh, really, is that all it takes? I spend a lot of time in Canada and identify with them to some extent, but that doesn't make me a fucking Canadian. I spend a lot of time in my garage but that doesn't make me a car. Want to really do something, lady? Buy a house and then you don't have to pretend to be from Detroit anymore.

Detroit is the only big city in the country where you have to live within the city limits to be able to say you're from there without people jumping down your throat.

**daddeeo** · August-15-10, 01:45 PM

Most people say, " I used to live in Detroit" or "I grew up in Detroit" these days.

DetroitPole · August-15-10, 02:02 PM

Originally Posted by detmsp

Detroit is the only big city in the country where you have to live within the city limits to be able to say you're from there without people jumping down your throat.

There are reasons for this.
People are "from Detroit" when it is convenient - ie geography [[nobody from anywhere outside of MI knows where the fuck Novi is) or in this lady's case, fashionable. Of course, their geography changes depending on who they're talking to. You can bet Grosse Pointers stop being "Detroiters" when they're talking to fellow Grosse Pointers.
This is also one of the most racially, economically, politically [[I could go on) divided regions in the country, if not THE most. A place like Grosse Pointe or Farmington Hills is so far removed from Detroit that there are few commonalities. Detroit probably has more in common with Mars.
Furthermore, there is really nothing cohesively linking the region. While most big cities are linked by transit and economics, we have no transit, and there is no economic center of the region [[Detroit is just one of them).
It is also insulting to those of us who have actually stuck it out and tried to make a difference as real Detroiters for these fat cats from their comfy condos in the exburbs to proudly proclaim they're "Detroiters". If all these "Detroiters" were actually Detroiters, Detroit's problems would be gone overnight. The coffers would be full and the city would be repopulated. However a more realistic scenario is an empty city with more "Detroiters" than actual residents.

All that aside, if this broad needs to pump up her street cred to impress her rich friends by calling herself a "Detroiter" because she goes to the Opera twice a year, I could give a shit less. I think her plan sounds moronic and pointless.

DC48080 · August-15-10, 02:12 PM

Sounds like somebody has a major chip on his or her shoulder. Or is it simply jealousy of people who live in purported "comfy condos"?

I'm sure this "broad," as you so crudely refer to her, couldn't care less about your concept of "street cred". Being from Detroit proper does not make you a badass to anybody but the most "moronic and pointless" people. Just as living in the suburbs does not make you any better or worse than people living in Detroit itself.

**Gistok** · August-15-10, 02:28 PM

DC48080... for more of the same go look at the really dumb Roger Penske thread...

**Jason** · August-15-10, 02:34 PM

I think the first article is a good one which a lot of people need to see, but I don't really like how the graphs were put together. If you look at the ranges in the color scales, they end pretty early.

For example, the median household income's highest color in the scale starts at $41,000. For reference, Warren's median household income is $44,000 and Michigan's is $48,000.

I think this has the effect of making Detroit seem consistent, and I think that's misleading.

**EMG** · August-15-10, 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

. You can bet Grosse Pointers stop being "Detroiters" when they're talking to fellow Grosse Pointers.

But that must be OK, because at least they're not....

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

....fat cats from their comfy condos in the exburbs [[proudly proclaiming) they're "Detroiters."

DC48080 · August-15-10, 02:47 PM

I find it ironic how some people on this forum bitch about how none of those evil people living in those God awful suburbs ever do anything to help poor old Detroit yet when some of those awful "outsiders" pitch in with some money and effort toward helping out they are rubuked, insulted and called names.

**BrushStart** · August-15-10, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by detmsp

Detroit is the only big city in the country where you have to live within the city limits to be able to say you're from there without people jumping down your throat.

Yeah, and people take it even farther than that. I've been living in Detroit downtown for several years and people still give me shit because according to them, I do not live in the "REAL" Detroit. WTF does that even mean? After being jumped twice down here and getting the crap kicked out of me and putting up with all of the city's B.S. on a daily basis, I consider myself a Detroiter, but apparently, I have to have been born here and lived in the projects in order to be considered a real Detroiter. It's f'ing stupid.

If you care enough about the city to want to call yourself a Detroiter, then go for it. It doesn't hurt anything and it keeps the city relevant. I have a 13-year-old cousin who has lived in FL his whole life but whose parents are originally from Detroit. When I went to visit, he had a bunch of Detroit apparel, hats and shirts with Detroit stuff on it. He is fascinated with the city and maybe even pretends like he is from there because even in FL being from the "D" is a big deal. But, who cares? Should I scold him for it? He's a little Detroit PR machine who doesn't bash the city like a lot of the assholes who live 10 minutes from the city's border.

I don't think this particular ad campaign is going to have a huge impact, but I'm not going to complain about it. It costs me nothing and is a positive project that includes volunteer opportunities. In fact, this is one of many positive movements taking place in and about Detroit, so hopefully it can build a little momentum. The moral of the story is, I wish more people who call themselves "Detroiters" would put their money where their mouth is, but I'm not going to critisize anyone who identifies themselves with the city in a positive way.

**p1acebo** · August-15-10, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by BrushStart

Yeah, and people take it even farther than that. I've been living in Detroit downtown for several years and people still give me shit because according to them, I do not live in the "REAL" Detroit. WTF does that even mean? After being jumped twice down here and getting the crap kicked out of me and putting up with all of the city's B.S. on a daily basis, I consider myself a Detroiter, but apparently, I have to have been born here and lived in the projects in order to be considered a real Detroiter. It's f'ing stupid.

If you care enough about the city to want to call yourself a Detroiter, then go for it. It doesn't hurt anything and it keeps the city relevant. I have a 13-year-old cousin who has lived in FL his whole life but whose parents are originally from Detroit. When I went to visit, he had a bunch of Detroit apparel, hats and shirts with Detroit stuff on it. He is fascinated with the city and maybe even pretends like he is from there because even in FL being from the "D" is a big deal. But, who cares? Should I scold him for it? He's a little Detroit PR machine who doesn't bash the city like a lot of the assholes who live 10 minutes from the city's border.

I don't think this particular ad campaign is going to have a huge impact, but I'm not going to complain about it. It costs me nothing and is a positive project that includes volunteer opportunities. In fact, this is one of many positive movements taking place in and about Detroit, so hopefully it can build a little momentum. The moral of the story is, I wish more people who call themselves "Detroiters" would put their money where their mouth is, but I'm not going to critisize anyone who identifies themselves with the city in a positive way.

+1, I live in downtown too and consider myself a Detroiter. Especially for the simple fact that I wanted to live in Detroit and chose to. People giving you crap for living downtown and not in the worst Detroit neighborhood is like saying the only real people from Chicago are on the southside.

**English** · August-15-10, 04:33 PM

While I'm sympathetic to all the sentiments on this thread, as with much in life and metro Detroit, it works both ways. No matter how long I live in Ann Arbor/Royal Oak/Birmingham/Grosse Pointe/Troy/Novi/Saline, I will always be viewed as a Detroiter, not a suburbanite. I will also always be associated with any ex-Detroiters who bring chaos to the 'burbs. That isn't fun, either.

This region is at an impasse, and has been for the past 40 years.

**Melocoton** · August-15-10, 04:36 PM

Originally Posted by detmsp

Detroit is the only big city in the country where you have to live within the city limits to be able to say you're from there without people jumping down your throat.

I disagree--I think it's closer to the opposite in fact. I'm always surprised when I go to the suburbs and see stores called "Detroit" This and "Detroit" That--and there's even a lousy magazine with Detroit in the title headquartered in the suburbs. I think suburban residents claim "Detroit" all the time without getting in trouble for it. Kid Rock [[and lots of his fans) would be another example.

By contrast, in the majority-black east coast city in whose suburbs I grew up, you were definitely marked as a poser or a wannabe if you claimed the city, rather than your particular county or town.

I don't have a major problem with this, although I generally like people to put their money where their mouths are, but I think Detroit as a name is pretty inclusive of the suburbs.

**detmsp** · August-15-10, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPole

This is also one of the most racially, economically, politically [[I could go on) divided regions in the country, if not THE most.

Well I can sleep easy knowing that if anyone ever tries to reach across the divide, you'll be there to bitch smack them back into their place.

**casscorridor** · August-15-10, 06:58 PM

Well part of a plan to bring back this city and this region and this state has to be some formal mechanism for regional cooperation that actually produces results, such as building and maintaining a functional regional transit system, or a body for regional planning, so that we can stop sprawl and reinvigorate older communities closer to the center of the metro [[central Detroit) that have seen investment leave to the outer-ring suburbs.

The reworking of land-use must extend to a regional scale. I could be wrong, but the only area in the suburbs that is really retaining value is the Woodward corridor, and various "downtown" areas. This is just my observation, not based on data. And we are having a hard time supporting any major malls beyond Somerset, so that when Somerset adds a few new stores it is front-page headlines. We let partridge creek get built right up the road from Lakeside Mall, which is now bankrupt. Meanwhile, M-59 is getting expanded because of constant gridlock created by some of the worst sprawl in the region [[lowest-densities, buildings spread incredibly far apart, widest set backs, most big box stores and mini mcmansions, absolutely no transit, etc etc). This lack of foresight and planing isn't just a city of Detroit problem, it is a regional problem.

But the solution to the problem lays in central Detroit -- building an effective rapid transit system, rebuilding dense urban neighborhoods, creating safe and clean places to live, etc. It also lays in the areas of the suburbs that are blessed to have institutions and resources concentrated in an small area-- the Woodward suburbs are rather dense [[comparable to many areas in Detroit), and many resources in one area -- three major shopping areas, the Detroit Zoo, Bus lines, Amtrack line, etc. If the old "Royal Oak Township" was one city, it would be over 200,000 residents, making it the largest city in Oakland County and the 3rd largest in the state. Another example is Dearborn, with Ford Motor, the Henry Ford Museum and Greenfield Village, the West Warren businesses district, West Dearborn "downtown" and East Dearborn "downtown," the Arab American National Museum, etc.

Now imagine if those areas were unified with Detroit, the tax base would be vastly improved and virtually all major cultural institutions would be located in the new city of Detroit, and the population would rise once again above 1 million. Hopefully the entire metro would have some form of formal cooperation. The status-quo is not sustainable. How long can we go on competing against our neighbors for resources, when we have to compete globally? Regardless of what you think of Detroit or the idea of living in Detroit, the Metro region of 5+ million people and the entire state of Michigan can not survive without a vibrant urban central city of Detroit. Since I wouldn't expect much population growth [[young people are fleeing rapidly), we have to find ways to keep people here while also attracting new residents to make up for those who are fleeing.

We have to have an amazingly vibrant central city, with rapid transit, a world class central city. Or at least enough to meet the standards of our youth, who desire convenient mass transit, urban amenities and an urban lifestyle. And the transit needs to connect all the metro, which is currently unconnected. If Downtown is at the hub of the transit system, it will naturally develop, once again, into the economic center of the region and state. That is why connecting the suburbs to the city is so important. It won't empty people out of the city because new jobs will locate where transit lines converge Downtown, so as to be in easy reach to the entire metro. And the whole region will benefit from the growth, it won't just be a Detroit thing. Some areas of the city will shrink and some will develop. The same is true for the burbs. We have to start thinking about the metro as one thing, not as it is-- the most racially and economically divided region in the country.

So although I personally cringe at things such as Real Detroit being based in Royal Oak, I also want to foster the idea that we can all work together as a region, and get behind the idea of "Detroit" and a strong and vibrant central city. Eventually the idea will catch on, and I'm fine with someone being pumped about the city even if they don't live here. Maybe they will some day, and that is saying a lot more than most people who say Detroit is a shit hole and not worth investing in. The better the city gets the more people will want to live there. It won't be a matter of "those who can leave." It will be "Detroit is a great place to live with something for everyone."

**PlymouthRes** · August-15-10, 07:02 PM

I submit to you, Detroitpole, that you are a "fanner of the flames" and a person who has not stepped out of the stoneage with your backward, lame-assed assesment of what is actually occuring outside of whatever little world you live in.

You are correct with your first post, second complete paragraph.
You have been "struck moronic" and the rest of your hateful and spiteful vitrol only backs that statement up 100%.

If it weren't for us suburbanites, Detroit would have ceased to exist a long time ago. Way to tear down what so many have tried to change with their hard work, even if they don't fit into your idea of the eutopia you believe to be the CoD.

I'm just glad that you feel your such a great embassador for such a fucked-up city.

Nice rebuttal there, detmsp. Spot on.

Res

**Lowell** · August-15-10, 08:26 PM

There seems to be two small group of extremists in the international family of communities of our Detroit, the Detroit best seen from satellite view where the artificial lines that carve us up are unseen..

One lives outside the City of Detroit and does everything to deny the name Detroit, takes every opportunity to dump on the City of Detroit and has little understanding of it's issues let alone their dependence on it's health. They are like chipmunks frolicking high in the foliage of a hollow tree believing that the health of the trunk has nothing to do with them.

The other lives within the.City of Detroit, often newbie arrivistes in highly secure settings or embittered burned out old-timers, that are full of a false righteousness that leads them to the illusion that only someone [[them) who lives in the City of Detroit can possibly speak to Detroit and it's challenges and everyone else who wishes to help should be shut up and shut out. They are like worms gnawing at the growing hollow in the tree.

The role of the rest of us who truly care about all of Detroit is endure their whining and defeatism and get on with the task of healing our city and facing our common challenges. To borrow terminology of this forum we need to switch on the ignore function.

**PlymouthRes** · August-15-10, 08:57 PM

Well said, Lowell. Perhaps I should have taken a step back and a deep breath as well, but I find people like Dpole to be the very detractors that would extinguish any spark of hope toward healing the huge chasm that exists. Thier selfish denial that we need to work together further deepens the rift and adds no input into the topics that need to be addressed so badly in this entire region.

It is also a myopic view of the signifcant contributions made by a predominence of folks[[read suburbanites)that volunteer time trying to heal that situation and drives me to the point that I actually feel like commenting on their sorry-assed opinion. As you know, I try to stick to the historical stuff, but the rudeness of the opinions of some on this forum lately in regard to suburbanites have driven me to the point of actually considering throwing in the towel with my efforts in regard to trying to heal the wrongs of the past in regard to the CoD.

Sorry for my outburst as it was simply my opinion and should not be a reflection on your forum.

Res

**Lowell** · August-15-10, 10:52 PM

That's their goal Res -- beat us down and get us to give up to prove that our city is as screwed up as their thinking and everything is hopeless. Sorry, it won't work. They would be better off chopping scrub brush at Fort Wayne.

**papillonaquatique** · August-15-10, 11:20 PM

Originally Posted by Lowell

That's their goal Res -- beat us down and get us to give up to prove that our city is as screwed up as their thinking and everything is hopeless. Sorry, it won't work. They would be better off chopping scrub brush at Fort Wayne.

Detroit is hurting right now but the city is not beyond saving. It is really beautiful in its own unique way and more should be done for the city and its people. I do not live there but I don't need to in order to realize that Detroit is something special and that it will eventually rise from the ashes of its tragic past and return to its former glory.

**gnome** · August-15-10, 11:44 PM

Was Ernie Harwell a Detroiter? You bet he was. Aretha? Her too. Elmore Leonard? Maybe, but what about Tommy Hearns? Emanuel Steward? Or any of a million folks that used to live inside the city, but don't any longer.

Are they still detroiters? Yes they are. To actually profer the notion that living in the city somehow graces you with heightened degrees of insight or spiritual rectitude is laughable at its face. Wouldn't you chortle if a Birmingdale Heights Isle resident would look down their perfectly formed nose and declare you inferior? Yet you are doing the same thing?

Chortle til you choke.

---

advertising campaign to save detroit.

jeeze, don't we already have 3,700 churches? almost 20,000 non-profits and another two dozen governement programs all designed to do the same thing. The problem seems to be too many folks saving souls and too few coordinating all that saving.

Couldn't these ad people donate their time to Skillman or Kresge? How about motorcity blight busters? Habitat?

**Crumbled_pavement** · August-15-10, 11:58 PM

Originally Posted by PlymouthRes

I submit to you, Detroitpole, that you are a "fanner of the flames" and a person who has not stepped out of the stoneage with your backward, lame-assed assesment of what is actually occuring outside of whatever little world you live in.

You are correct with your first post, second complete paragraph.
You have been "struck moronic" and the rest of your hateful and spiteful vitrol only backs that statement up 100%.

If it weren't for us suburbanites, Detroit would have ceased to exist a long time ago. Way to tear down what so many have tried to change with their hard work, even if they don't fit into your idea of the eutopia you believe to be the CoD.

I'm just glad that you feel your such a great embassador for such a fucked-up city.

Nice rebuttal there, detmsp. Spot on.

Res

Well this worthless resident of a fucked up city that would cease to exist without the benevolence of you and your merciful suburban friends is thankful that you continue to bless even with our screwed up attitudes. We are not worthy of your extreme generosity but appreciate your sacrifices even though we're no where near deserving of it and are in no position to help ourselves or help you help us.

**gnome** · August-16-10, 12:01 AM

You might continue on, but what about the cultural institutions? What about sporting events? You can't blame Bubba Helms for all the problems.

**1KielsonDrive** · August-16-10, 01:05 AM

I'm a Detroiter! No, I don't live in the city limits. Used to. Last time was about 8 years ago. Bought a condo on a lake about 45 minutes from the heart of The D. I'm a Detroiter! I used to own property in Detroit. City Hall, cops [[lack of, and then abuse from???) and crackheads ran me [[???) outta town. I'm a Detroiter! I've worked and hung out in Detroit for the better part of a half century [[Rinna Brother's Bakery, McClouth Steel, Scott Paper, DAC, DYC, DGCC, various bars and restaurants, etc). Loved almost every minute of it. I'm a Detroiter! Owned a business downtown. City hall, cops [[lack of, and then abuse from???) ran me [[???) outta town. I'm a Detroiter! Paid lot's of taxes over those years. I'm a Detroiter! Still hang out and support Detroit. It's my neighborhood. Just not as much downtown. I'm a Detroiter! I prefer the neighborhoods. So what does it take to be a Detroiter? Residency? Hanging out? Employment? Sports figure? The eternal litmus test.