New DPS administrators

[Claire]

What will the new Principals do differently than the old/fired ones?


I have sat quietly by while Detroit praises its new crop of principals.
Many were made to retire and in comes a new crop. The AYP was published for all schools today in the Detroit News. It was not pretty.

Questions for the new principals...

1. What will you do differently than the old ones, with the new evaluation form and the tremendous amount of pressure you will have to achieve.

2. Do you think the staff will welcome you with open arms? How will you win their support?

3. We will all be anxious to see what a fantastic job they will do especially at our one jewel of a high school. The AP that was slated for the job would have done a fantastic job. She knew the staff and the culture. It is not an easy building to run.

Good luck everyone.

Any other DPS employees, please chime in.

[DetroitTeacher]

Claire: DPS, as a district, made AYP this year [[it was slapped all over the news). Not all Principals are new. Some have been moved. Many were APs last year and moved into the Principal spot this year. I know Cody has a wonderful new Principal for the 11th and 12th graders and a wonderful Principal for the 9th and 10th graders [[small school design, you know). Most schools are Priority Schools this year and that means new admin and the school must turnover half its staff and bring in half new staff. ALL employees for the PSs must apply for their jobs, whether they were there last year or not [[so it could be an all new staff). The new admin at Cody treats their staff with the utmost respect. They listen to staff concerns and are well received by staff, in general. I am dying to get over there [[since Cooley closed). They are also no nonsense and expect excellence from those who are in the building [[staff and students). They also treat the kids with respect and are well liked by the students and parents. They know what they are doing and it shows. If staff have great respect for their admin, then they will bend over backward to make that admin look good [[test scores...well at least prepping the kids for the tests, evaluations, lesson plans, professional development, extra curriculars, etc).

I am proud to serve my kids and was saddened when my Principal of last year left the district when they closed Cooley. He was really making some headway and weeding out the kids who caused trouble [[we got rid of the firebug and most of the "gang" members). He had staff bending over backward to do what he asked of us. DPS lost a great administrator when they lost him. Our test scores went up from the previous year, the atmosphere for both staff and students improved tremendously, and teacher absenteeism was down. It will be the same at Cody this year...as the new Principal has the same type of style as my Principal last year.

I hope, for the sake of the kids, that things go well this year. It seems like there are some good programs in place [[if DPS will just give them time to work before replacing them with something else). Many of the admins are decent people who are really in this for the kids [[as are we teachers).

[firstandten]

What will the new Principals do differently than the old/fired ones?

Probably not much except they will be under considerable pressure to hit their metrics, without the support staff and at a lesser rate of pay than the old/fired principals got. They are going to need to work very hard, since they will have little job security.

[DetroitTeacher]

Principals and APs get lay-off notices about 4 times a year [[usually rescinded). Many are on a one-year contract and have zero job security. It seems like no matter what they do, DPS is rearranging things each year and not allowing them to do what they need to do to make better schools for the kids. The rules for admin and teachers change daily and they are constantly throwing weird stuff at us without any notice [[what they expect us to do but haven't given us the tools to do it and they expected it done yesterday but we didn't know about it). It's sad, really. Admin needs a good staff in the building and getting rid of the crappy staff is NOT easy! I hope that things turn around but with DPS switching things up every year and getting rid of programs that work and implementing stuff that doesn't work, at a moments notice and then abandoning things halfway through, isn't going to make this an easy task.

[Claire]

One of our new crop of administrators left a suburban district in shambles to RETURN to DPS as the leader of our one jewel of a high school.

So Sad. That lets me know that Bob Bobb is not serious about improvement or is this all that is out there?

I hope the schools proud alumni is not sold by her smooth talking. Ask for proof of what she can do.

Dont' just accept promises. Go back to the suburban district that she just left and ask any of the board members, mayor, residents, corporate partners, anyone that had a working relationship with her, will tell you that you must get beyond the talk and ask for proof.

Good Luck.

[DetroitTeacher]

A Principal can't leave the DISTRICT in shambles. They can, however, leave a school in shambles. DPS has more than one "jewel" school.

Claire, do you work for DPS?

[Claire]

Yes, I work for DPS but live in the district that I am speaking about.

When you have 1 High School and 1 Middle School, a principal CAN leave a district in shambles. In a small district, if you dont have collaboration between the buildings, it is not a good mix. There wasn't any collaboration. Because the high school was in trouble, the other buildings were making sacrifices to insure their success.

The school board/ community did not know the principal was leaving until it was in the paper. So much for professionalism.

[DetroitTeacher]

Betcha no one is sad that person left, if what you say is true [[you didn't name the district so we have nothing but your word for it). It's sad when there isn't good admin. Prior to last year, I spent 8 years of living hell with my admin. They didn't respect us, didn't respect the kids, didn't respect the parents [[even those teachers, kids, and parents who were dedicated to education) and this can only tell me that they didn't respect the value of education. I wasn't sad to see them leave the building [[the principal retired and we pawned the AP from hell off on another DPS school where she took over as principal and they are having the same issues we had for the past 8 years). Leadership makes all the difference in performance.

[ombili]

She's talking about Oak Park Schools. Their former high school principal is the new principal of Cass Tech.

[65memories]

Detroit teacher...you're right, leadership makes all the difference in performance. Robert Bobb, while doing a great job confronting the greed and corruption, has totally erred in his analysis of what makes a good administrator. Case in point, a year ago, he removed the competent Linda Spight from Mumford, totally ignoring the protests from the staff and community. Linda Spight was the best administrator I had worked for in my 41 years with DPS. She had total respect from everyone: staff, students and parents. As a result, Mumford, once lauded as one of the best comprehensive high schools in the city, went completely downhill and spun out of control. As a result, it will be a challenge this year for the present staff and administration. Mr. Bobb made similar administrative moves, not getting the results he intended.

[English]

She's talking about Oak Park Schools. Their former high school principal is the new principal of Cass Tech.

Interesting.

[Claire]

She's talking about Oak Park Schools. Their former high school principal is the new principal of Cass Tech.

You are correct. I am so suprised at Robert Bobb. Didn't he ask for references?

Look at the MME scores. Yes a lot of it is student driven, but most of it is an indication that you dont have a staff willing to work with you.

[firstandten]

Detroit teacher...you're right, leadership makes all the difference in performance. Robert Bobb, while doing a great job confronting the greed and corruption, has totally erred in his analysis of what makes a good administrator. Case in point, a year ago, he removed the competent Linda Spight from Mumford, totally ignoring the protests from the staff and community. Linda Spight was the best administrator I had worked for in my 41 years with DPS. She had total respect from everyone: staff, students and parents. As a result, Mumford, once lauded as one of the best comprehensive high schools in the city, went completely downhill and spun out of control. As a result, it will be a challenge this year for the present staff and administration. Mr. Bobb made similar administrative moves, not getting the results he intended.

One could make the case that you can be too data driven.
Bobb made his decision based on the numbers but for schools like Mumford and a few others the numbers don't tell the whole story.

I believe that because he didn't know the back story with most of these schools he strictly went by the metrics, either you met them or you didn't and if you didn't then you needed to go.

He discounted the wishes of the key stakeholders in the Mumford community and he realized the hard way that if you just go by the numbers you can make mistakes.

I understand he asked Ms Spight to come back to Mumford, an admission that he made a misjudgment, but considering how she was treated by Bobb she rightfully said no.

[DetroitFats]

It's almost as if putting non-educators in charge of education is a bad idea.

[DetroitTeacher]

DFats: I've been saying much of the same thing for years. No one can know what really works in the classroom unless they've been in a classroom [[and they need to go back into the classroom every 10 years or so just to know what changes are going on with the student population). I do respect the fact that Bobb is getting rid of the waste [[dead staff on payroll) but I think he's also creating a bunch of BS with being involved with some of the companies that are coming into DPS.

[firstandten]

It's almost as if putting non-educators in charge of education is a bad idea.

The educators don't seem to have an answer to our sad state of education, so we might as well see what the non-educators can do.

[English]

The educators don't seem to have an answer to our sad state of education, so we might as well see what the non-educators can do.

We are already getting some answers about what non-educators do with school systems. The results are not convincing at all.

In order to understand what happened to public education in the United States, it's vital to study its history. One of my many issues with the debates over the fate of public schooling is that they are so very ahistorical, as if we arrived at this present moment magically.

[firstandten]

We are already getting some answers about what non-educators do with school systems. The results are not convincing at all.

So then English what do we do? You're an educator. Do you keep pounding that round peg into that square hole or is radical change necessary to bring about the desired outcomes.

In order to understand what happened to public education in the United States, it's vital to study its history. One of my many issues with the debates over the fate of public schooling is that they are so very ahistorical, as if we arrived at this present moment magically.

Of course you are correct here. The fate of public education is intermingled with the changes in our culture and economy over time. The ability of public education to meet the needs of a society that has gone from a largely agrarian, to manufacturing, to service, to hi-tech economy in little over 100 years is something that must be considered.

[DetroitTeacher]

The FIRST thing I would do is to make each classroom tech ready. For the past 14 years, I've had one working plug in my class [[and if I put a multi plug outlet into that one plug, it would blow). If we are to make changes and keep up with the tech savvy world, then at least give teachers the tools. We need to make class size smaller to meet the needs of an ever on the rise special education population in gen ed classes [[I can't give the kids the attention they need if I have 60+ kids in each class). We need to start holding kids and parents accountable for the actions of that child [[I spend more time on behavior management than I should have to at the high school level). We need to purchase supplies and textbooks from alternative sources [[ask a teacher where to find cheap paper, books, pens, etc...we know how to find deals) and stop overspending on these items. We [[at least in DPS) need a solid code of conduct and stick to it [[when a kid knows nothing will happen if they act up, then they will act up). We NEED to have an attendance policy and stick to it [[DPS currently has no attendance policy). We NEED a better way to communicate with parents about school news that is accessible to all parents [[a website doesn't work, we tried that...we've given notes to kids to take home about upcoming events...that doesn't work, we tried calling each kid's home...numbers are disconnected or the kid answers). We need to get kids out of rows of desks and into collaborative work stations [[or at least tables with chairs...those desks are uncomfortable and not easily put together for group activities). We need to demand that kids do homework and penalize them if they don't. We need to make the environment safe for both kids and staff [[get rid of the kids who are a threat...not just transfer them to another school to be another person's problem). We need to start demanding excellence instead of making excuses for the child's issues. We need follow state guidelines for learning [[GLCEs)...currently DPS is a tad behind [[the state has kids reading To Kill A Mockingbird in 9th grade...DPS has it slated for 11th grade). We [[the parents) need to expose kids to various cultures, ideas, museums, etc. Right now, our kids are very closed minded individuals who have no prior knowledge of the world or anything beyond their city block.

You asked, I just gave a short list of things off the top of my head.

[firstandten]

The FIRST thing I would do is to make each classroom tech ready. For the past 14 years, I've had one working plug in my class [[and if I put a multi plug outlet into that one plug, it would blow). If we are to make changes and keep up with the tech savvy world, then at least give teachers the tools. We need to make class size smaller to meet the needs of an ever on the rise special education population in gen ed classes [[I can't give the kids the attention they need if I have 60+ kids in each class). We need to start holding kids and parents accountable for the actions of that child [[I spend more time on behavior management than I should have to at the high school level). We need to purchase supplies and textbooks from alternative sources [[ask a teacher where to find cheap paper, books, pens, etc...we know how to find deals) and stop overspending on these items. We [[at least in DPS) need a solid code of conduct and stick to it [[when a kid knows nothing will happen if they act up, then they will act up). We NEED to have an attendance policy and stick to it [[DPS currently has no attendance policy). We NEED a better way to communicate with parents about school news that is accessible to all parents [[a website doesn't work, we tried that...we've given notes to kids to take home about upcoming events...that doesn't work, we tried calling each kid's home...numbers are disconnected or the kid answers). We need to get kids out of rows of desks and into collaborative work stations [[or at least tables with chairs...those desks are uncomfortable and not easily put together for group activities). We need to demand that kids do homework and penalize them if they don't. We need to make the environment safe for both kids and staff [[get rid of the kids who are a threat...not just transfer them to another school to be another person's problem). We need to start demanding excellence instead of making excuses for the child's issues. We need follow state guidelines for learning [[GLCEs)...currently DPS is a tad behind [[the state has kids reading To Kill A Mockingbird in 9th grade...DPS has it slated for 11th grade). We [[the parents) need to expose kids to various cultures, ideas, museums, etc. Right now, our kids are very closed minded individuals who have no prior knowledge of the world or anything beyond their city block.

You asked, I just gave a short list of things off the top of my head.

I agree with all your points 100%. To summarize, what we are seeing is an erosion of standards ... basically all the standards, many of which are fundamental that will allow success in the classroom, from maintenance of buildings, to behavior, to expections for classwork etc. Many of the issues that are causing this erosion is beyond the control of the educators I get that, but some are.

The educators should have known that mixing Gen Ed and Spec Ed in large classrooms were going to create tough challenges for even the best teachers.

The educators should have known that just kicking a kid out of one school and putting the kid in another without accountablity from the kid or the parent is not solving the problem.

The educators should be responsible for enforcing and sticking to there own policies on homework, dress code, cell phones/ipods , attendance , and show the kids [[and their parents) there are consequences for not following the rules.

It has been my contention that great teachers don't necessarily make great administrators. Just like the superstar basketball player doesn't necessarily make a good coach.

The education world needs to realize that there are some different skill sets involved in being a great teacher and a great administrator. There is or should be room in the education world for a bottom-line guy like Mr. Bobb, or a hard nosed manager from the corporate world who has come into the education environment.

Another example, have you considered that teachers always bringing pencils and paper for the kids is an enabling behavior that is not in the kids long term best interest. Another example of an erosion of standards. Plus its costs the teachers a bunch of money over the course of a school year.

When nothing is require of the student other than just show up for school, the value of the free education is de-valued even more, and as kids they aren't mature enough to understand the long-term problems it is going to cause them.

Thats why in previous posts I stated why not give non-educators a shot, its a fresh set of eyes, and unfortunately many educators are so close to the issue, that there standards have slipped over time without them realizing it.

[English]

The educators should have known that mixing Gen Ed and Spec Ed in large classrooms were going to create tough challenges for even the best teachers.

This was not the decision of educators, but happened because of legislation. The U.S. Individuals with Disabilities Education Act requires that we place all students in what is known as the least restrictive environment. To do otherwise is illegal. The parents and guardians of these students advocated for their kids to be placed into the regular classroom, and we live in a democracy. Of the people -- by the people -- for the people.

The educators should have known that just kicking a kid out of one school and putting the kid in another without accountablity from the kid or the parent is not solving the problem.

Every district has policies on expulsion, which is the ultimate source of accountability. Beyond that, what consequences do you propose educators enforce on bad parents? We are constantly reminded that it is the parents who are taxpayers and voters.

The educators should be responsible for enforcing and sticking to there own policies on homework, dress code, cell phones/ipods , attendance , and show the kids [[and their parents) there are consequences for not following the rules.

I agree with this. What do you do when there are students who absolutely will not follow these policies for any reason whatsoever? For whom neither reward nor punishment can induce compliance?

It has been my contention that great teachers don't necessarily make great administrators. Just like the superstar basketball player doesn't necessarily make a good coach.

Au contraire. The best building administrators have been competent teachers. Perhaps not the most inspired practitioners, perhaps not master teachers, but they do know their way around a classroom.

The education world needs to realize that there are some different skill sets involved in being a great teacher and a great administrator.

Agreed. Sometimes these skill sets do not overlap, but sometimes, they do.

There is or should be room in the education world for a bottom-line guy like Mr. Bobb, or a hard nosed manager from the corporate world who has come into the education environment.

There should be room for the Bobbs of the education world to deal with school funding, for teachers to teach, and for those with administrative skills to make decisions about curriculum and instruction.

Another example, have you considered that teachers always bringing pencils and paper for the kids is an enabling behavior that is not in the kids long term best interest. Another example of an erosion of standards. Plus its costs the teachers a bunch of money over the course of a school year.

If DT refuses to purchase supplies, and her students do not have them through parental or district negligence, should DT and colleagues demand that students come back with them? Is it enforcing standards to allow them to complete no written work because they have neither pen nor paper? What if the student doesn't care if they fail or not?

When nothing is require of the student other than just show up for school, the value of the free education is de-valued even more, and as kids they aren't mature enough to understand the long-term problems it is going to cause them.

If you require too much of today's students, they can and will sue. For instance, it is illegal to require high school English students in the state of Michigan to purchase their novels for class. I was informed upon reaching a local suburban district that everyone considers excellent that I could not require *any* supplies, only suggest them, and by no means was I allowed to enforce penalties if students did not bring them. Then I was told of a successful lawsuit years ago by a student in the state of Michigan who was required to do exactly that.

Thats why in previous posts I stated why not give non-educators a shot, its a fresh set of eyes, and unfortunately many educators are so close to the issue, that there standards have slipped over time without them realizing it.

I will admit that education and educators have failed in many ways. So has our permissive culture. Both educators and non-educators are drawn from this culture. School reform will remain elusive until the culture is changed. Currently, there is very little incentive to change the culture.

In order to thrive, schools need to be filled with teachers who enjoy learning for learning's sake, and who teach students how to learn. The thing that master teachers all have in common is a deep caring for students AND both mastery of and passion for the subject they are teaching. My love for the English language and the best words strung together in English since the Dark Ages is nearly obsessive [[hence the handle). I am absolutely obsessed with getting my students to believe what I believe about the world -- that literacy is liberation.

Our culture doesn't value learning for learning's sake, which is why teachers and teaching are so devalued. The reason we don't have more teachers like DT in Detroit is because our culture doesn't value effective teachers. Poor teachers enforce the status quo, and master teachers threaten it. If master teachers ran the education system, in a generation, you wouldn't recognize the country.

[firstandten]

I always learn something from you and DT when these issues are discussed. Just some comments and questions from your post

This was not the decision of educators, but happened because of legislation. The U.S. Individuals with Disabilities Education Act requires that we place all students in what is known as the least restrictive environment. To do otherwise is illegal. The parents and guardians of these students advocated for their kids to be placed into the regular classroom, and we live in a democracy. Of the people -- by the people -- for the people..

That really makes it tough for everyone involved, teachers, and the students

Every district has policies on expulsion, which is the ultimate source of accountability. Beyond that, what consequences do you propose educators enforce on bad parents? We are constantly reminded that it is the parents who are taxpayers and voters.

What do you do when there are students who absolutely will not follow these policies for any reason whatsoever? For whom neither reward nor punishment can induce compliance?.

I think that as a society we need to be realistic and come to the conclusion that every child won't or can't be educated to the extent that we would like. Those students would for the most part be warehoused in Alt Ed until 18. I agree its pretty draconian but the alternative would be to let that student[[s) destroy the learning environment for the others. There is really not much that can be done with bad parents.

Au contraire. The best building administrators have been competent teachers. Perhaps not the most inspired practitioners, perhaps not master teachers, but they do know their way around a classroom. .

Perhaps, but non-educators have not been given much of a chance to be administrators in an educational environment.

If DT refuses to purchase supplies, and her students do not have them through parental or district negligence, should DT and colleagues demand that students come back with them? Is it enforcing standards to allow them to complete no written work because they have neither pen nor paper? What if the student doesn't care if they fail or not? .

If you require too much of today's students, they can and will sue. For instance, it is illegal to require high school English students in the state of Michigan to purchase their novels for class. I was informed upon reaching a local suburban district that everyone considers excellent that I could not require *any* supplies, only suggest them, and by no means was I allowed to enforce penalties if students did not bring them. Then I was told of a successful lawsuit years ago by a student in the state of Michigan who was required to do exactly that..

I understand, but I'm only referring to pencil and paper only nothing else. Some of these teachers have a supply list for there students that looks more like a wish list


.

Our culture doesn't value learning for learning's sake, which is why teachers and teaching are so devalued. The reason we don't have more teachers like DT in Detroit is because our culture doesn't value effective teachers. Poor teachers enforce the status quo, and master teachers threaten it. If master teachers ran the education system, in a generation, you wouldn't recognize the country.

I believe you, but isn't the master teacher concept alot like the pay for performance concept that reformers like Rhee is trying to implement.
I don't think its only the poor teachers enforcing the status quo, but the two major teacher unions thats doing it as well.

[DetroitTeacher]

Firstandten: here is my response to your statements. We agree on more than you think.

The educators should be responsible for enforcing and sticking to there own policies on homework, dress code, cell phones/ipods , attendance , and show the kids [[and their parents) there are consequences for not following the rules.

Agreed, but we are powerless when it comes to an appeal if the parents make a stink. If the district has no policy, then we can't just go and make our own.

It has been my contention that great teachers don't necessarily make great administrators. Just like the superstar basketball player doesn't necessarily make a good coach.

You aren 't lying here. I wouldn't even dream of being an admin. BUT...admin should at least listen to us because we do have some knowledge of how things should run so the kids benefit. It should be a collaborative effort...not just the top end making decisions about classrooms, especially if they are non-educators.

Another example, have you considered that teachers always bringing pencils and paper for the kids is an enabling behavior that is not in the kids long term best interest. Another example of an erosion of standards. Plus its costs the teachers a bunch of money over the course of a school year.

I don't loan pencils/pens/paper I sell them at cost. Things happen...pens break, backpacks get stolen, the kid runs out of paper two classes before mine. We don't have a school bookstore. I'm just saying, the overall supplies [[teachers make copies, the office makes copies, the offices need supplies, too. If you ask a teacher where to buy that stuff, we can explain where to get it for cheap.

When nothing is require of the student other than just show up for school, the value of the free education is de-valued even more, and as kids they aren't mature enough to understand the long-term problems it is going to cause them.

Agreed. This is why MOST teachers demand things of the kids. Homework must be done, I don't accept late work without a valid excuse [[and I don't accept late projects and long-term assignments such as term papers).

Thats why in previous posts I stated why not give non-educators a shot, its a fresh set of eyes, and unfortunately many educators are so close to the issue, that there standards have slipped over time without them realizing it.

Then it's time for someone to let them know [[the kids let poor teachers know they stink every day). If they don't start expecting excellence, then get rid of that teacher. That's where I disagree with the unions [[ok, I disagree on most things). Poor teachers need to go. Poor admin needs to go. Just ask the kids who is a crappy teacher and they will tell you. Ask the teachers who is the crappy administrator and they will tell you. It's no secret. Most of the teachers who know their standards have gone down the tubes know it because the kids aren't quiet about it. The kids actually WANT to get into the classes of the teachers who expect excellence [[if the kid is in school to learn and not act crazy).

[firstandten]

The educators should be responsible for enforcing and sticking to there own policies on homework, dress code, cell phones/ipods , attendance , and show the kids [[and their parents) there are consequences for not following the rules.

Agreed, but we are powerless when it comes to an appeal if the parents make a stink. If the district has no policy, then we can't just go and make our own.

Wow ! The district has no policy on this. That blows me away. I think its time to rattle some board members cages about this. This will give me a chance to see if this board is truly serious about making some improvements

[DetroitTeacher]

There is no policy on attendance. There is a policy on cell phones but it's not enforced. Kids are supposed to do homework [[my kids do), and each building gets to make its own dress code.