The fight for DPS

**R8RBOB** · July-28-10, 08:04 AM

After reading today's Detroit News story http://www.detnews.com/article/20100...on-DPS-control about putting the question of who will control DPS on the ballot, I have to ask what is the holdup?

A petition drive was started to collect signatures. They collected the required number of signatures, so it should be on the ballot right? Wrong!!! Instead the City Council has turned this into a zoo. If the CC don't put this on the ballot and let people vote on the question of turning control over to the mayor, the next governor will have no problem giving the mayor control just like the governor did previously.

I read this quote from the story and it left me shaking my head........

Tia Shepherd, a parent of six, said any change of leadership needs to come from the people not from a council ballot initiative.
"The change needs to be within us," she said.

My question to Ms. Shepherd would be this: How would you create change if there is no movement to call for the change? Do nothing and the status quo remains. This is the reason why Kwame Kilpatrick was reelected. I say the council should put it on the ballot where it would be approved in a landslide.

**SWMAP** · July-28-10, 08:55 AM

The largely Black citizens of detroit are having this framed for them as an attack on "the [[sacred) vote" that their ancestors died for. That is a romantic but problematic argument, as the Mayor holds his seat as the result of election by the citizens.

Then there is charles pugh with his empire-building. He wants the Mayor to share the role of school leadership officially with the Council

**daddeeo** · July-28-10, 09:17 AM

As usual, the blowhards and people afraid of losing the power [[they have abused) are screaming, shouting and knocking themselves over this issue.
Doesn't anyone take the time to calmly discuss any issues in the city anymore?
The media showboats seem to come out of the woodwork whenever these divisive
subjects are broached. Other opportunists climb on board until it becomes a three ring circus.
All I know is, the present school board can't continue cheating the students of an education and of ripping off tax payers.

**R8RBOB** · July-28-10, 09:28 AM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

The largely Black citizens of detroit are having this framed for them as an attack on "the [[sacred) vote" that their ancestors died for. That is a romantic but problematic argument, as the Mayor holds his seat as the result of election by the citizens.

Then there is charles pugh with his empire-building. He wants the Mayor to share the role of school leadership officially with the Council

I wouldn't frame it as the Black citizens calling this an attack. Only the ignorant would frame it as losing the right to vote. Those opposing this know that if it makes it to the ballot it will be approved. [[I will vote to remove the board)

As for Charles Pugh, he shows his rookie status on his sleeve. The City Council is a legislature branch, not an executive branch which is what Pugh would create by having a hand in controlling the schools.

EastSider · July-28-10, 09:36 AM

It most certainly is being framed as an attack on the right to vote.

Activists likened the mayoral control proposal to slavery and alleged it subverts democracy because it could abolish the elected 11-member board.

Longtime schools activist Helen Moore said placing the measure on the ballot would tarnish the efforts of civil rights activists such as Fannie Lou Hamer and Rosa Parks, and former City Council President Erma Henderson.

"You all are forgetting our history and the shoulders we stand on," Moore said.

"You all are traitors of the fact that we bled, died and fought with everything in our power to get the right to vote."

From The Detroit News: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100...#ixzz0uzIrnfU3

As for the "empire-building" quip, I believe it is a valid consideration, whether the mayor alone should hold the appointing power or whether council should have a role.

**R8RBOB** · July-28-10, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by EastSider

It most certainly is being framed as an attack on the right to vote.

As for the "empire-building" quip, I believe it is a valid consideration, whether the mayor alone should hold the appointing power or whether council should have a role.

Weren't these the same people that was crying about removing Kwame Kilpatrick from office? These activists like Ms. Moore need something to complain about.

**Danny** · July-28-10, 11:20 AM

That is why all Detroiters must vote FOR HEAVEN SAKES, NO! on the Detroit Mayoral takeover of Detroit Public Schools. Let this proposal be dead!

Ravine · July-28-10, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

After reading today's Detroit News story http://www.detnews.com/article/20100...on-DPS-control about putting the question of who will control DPS on the ballot, I have to ask what is the holdup?

A petition drive was started to collect signatures. They collected the required number of signatures, so it should be on the ballot right? Wrong!!! Instead the City Council has turned this into a zoo. If the CC don't put this on the ballot and let people vote on the question of turning control over to the mayor, the next governor will have no problem giving the mayor control just like the governor did previously.

I read this quote from the story and it left me shaking my head........

Tia Shepherd, a parent of six, said any change of leadership needs to come from the people not from a council ballot initiative.
"The change needs to be within us," she said.

My question to Ms. Shepherd would be this: How would you create change if there is no movement to call for the change? Do nothing and the status quo remains. This is the reason why Kwame Kilpatrick was reelected. I say the council should put it on the ballot where it would be approved in a landslide.

I hope those six kids figure out that their mother is a dim-wit and make up their minds to figure most things out for themselves.

**R8RBOB** · July-28-10, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

That is why all Detroiters must vote FOR HEAVEN SAKES, NO! on the Detroit Mayoral takeover of Detroit Public Schools. Let this proposal be dead!

Yes, let it get on the ballot. Why all the hoopla about asking the question? If the voters say no then fine they don't believe that the mayor is the right person to take control but these nuts are implying that the question should never been addressed. What are they afraid of?

**kenp** · July-28-10, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by daddeeo

As usual, the blowhards and people afraid of losing the power [[they have abused) are screaming, shouting and knocking themselves over this issue.
Doesn't anyone take the time to calmly discuss any issues in the city anymore?
The media showboats seem to come out of the woodwork whenever these divisive
subjects are broached. Other opportunists climb on board until it becomes a three ring circus.
All I know is, the present school board can't continue cheating the students of an education and of ripping off tax payers.

Right On!!!!
#1 Blowhard Anthony Adams spewing his rhetoric on Tuesday was simply hysterical. Tear it down to the ground

**hamtown mike** · July-28-10, 01:02 PM

I have a good story to help illustrate the current Detroit mindset. I was walking past the old Arcade bar. There was a box on the sidewalk next to, and presumably part of, a larger pile of garbage. It held old newspapers, an old pepsi tin sign, etc in the box. I poked my head inside to ask the guy cleaning the place out if I could dig through the box. "Sure." he said. So I started digging. A few moments later he came out and said "Mmm i don't know... that stuff might be worth something..." yanking the box inside.

If I had not expressed an interest, that box would be in a landfill right now. So how does it relate to DPS? Now that somebody is paying attention to DPS the citizens who have ignored DPS like that box of garbage are now suddenly outraged.

My favorite quote from the meeting was "I have to yell. It's the only way I'll be heard."

There you go kiddies-straight from your role model's mouth. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong, the loudest person is right. So why take time to research and get to know all angles of an issue when you can shout your way into being right?

Thankfully there was another speaker who, seeing the absolute breakdown of civil discourse as well as seeing children in the audience said "... what are we teaching our children?"

Befuddled and Baffled and have had a baby- Baffuddled

**English** · July-28-10, 01:48 PM

Well, you have a lot of people in Detroit who feel as if they've been disenfranchished and disempowered for a long time. One can argue that this is no longer the case, but we all live according to our perceptions, not necessarily objective reality. That isn't just the province of Detroiters. It's human nature.

The problem with DPS is the problem with urban education -- but on steroids, just as all of Detroit's issues are more dire because of our anemic socioeconomic base inside city limits. No one has urban education on a districtwide scale figured out yet. We know how to do small scale urban ed. It is done well in pockets, including the two schools that produced me and my friends, and the two schools where I taught. There are comparables in urban centers all over the country. We just don't know how to scale it up yet.

I won't go on and on today. Just will reiterate that while fixing the schools is a major task for the city, it's not the main reason why people are not moving to Detroit. The situation in urban schools nationwide is pretty dire, but it doesn't stop young college grads, the creative class, and immigrants from flocking to other cities. People who are looking for the best public schools in the United States typically do NOT move into the city.

**R8RBOB** · July-28-10, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by English

Well, you have a lot of people in Detroit who feel as if they've been disenfranchished and disempowered for a long time. One can argue that this is no longer the case, but we all live according to our perceptions, not necessarily objective reality. That isn't just the province of Detroiters. It's human nature.

Oh no, I can't allow you to slide with this. If people who currently reside in Detroit feel disenfranchised and disempowered it is because they made a choice not be involved and informed and not because of human nature. Don't put this on human nature. That's a cop-out

These people didn't give two shits about the school system. These people who are crying about losing their right to vote are the same people who either didn't pay attention to the eroding of the school system or they were the one profiting from the DPS coffers. The idea that these people would care so much about DPS is a joke. The parents are up in arms yet their children was being social promoted and these kids are dumb as rocks and the parents and the activists want to keep the same system that has failed child after child. Get this on the ballot so that I can vote yes. I'm not disenfranchised and disempowered and I want to prove it.

**rustic2** · July-28-10, 02:43 PM

I don't have a strong opinion on city/mayoral control of DPS. But I'd like its proponents to exlain this to me: How would it help?

That's not a knock on Bing, and I know such arrangements have shown results in other cities and that the current administration and school board are deeply dysfunctional.

But why is mayoral control seen as a magic bullet? The problems at DPS run so deep and have been 40 or more years in the making. They can't be blamed only on the board, the administration and the teachers. Security is poor at best, parents are too apathetic or too busy, the local economy holds out no hope or educational incentives, the financial bad news never never stops and people continue to flee.

How much difference could the mayor really make?

**English** · July-28-10, 02:48 PM

R8RBOB, I'm not excusing. I'm explaining. There's a difference. I'd be interested in your response to the other 2/3s of my post.

**EastsideAl** · July-28-10, 02:51 PM

Do you not believe that "you have a lot of people in Detroit who FEEL as if they've been disenfranchished and disempowered for a long time'"? To me this feeling, which English correctly identifies as a perception that may or nay not accord with current objective reality [[but certainly has a factual basis in both local and national history), and the defensiveness, fear, resentment, and xenophobia it brings out in some people is our second greatest political problem in the City of Detroit after lack of resources [[yes, ahead of corruption...).

I agree with you about the Board of Ed., and the sudden proprietary feeling of some of our citizens for an institution they couldn't have cared less about a few days ago. And the role of some of our local political power mongers in whipping up and encouraging this storm of the same old resentments is pretty despicable. But to deny that the feelings outlined above by English exist or that they aren't real is, to me, to miss and potentially fail to deal with an essential part of our local political landscape.

**English** · July-28-10, 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by rustic2

I don't have a strong opinion on city/mayoral control of DPS. But I'd like its proponents to exlain this to me: How would it help?

That's not a knock on Bing, and I know such arrangements have shown results in other cities and that the current administration and school board are deeply dysfunctional.

But why is mayoral control seen as a magic bullet? The problems at DPS run so deep and have been 40 or more years in the making. They can't be blamed only on the board, the administration and the teachers. Security is poor at best, parents are too apathetic or too busy, the local economy holds out no hope or educational incentives, the financial bad news never never stops and people continue to flee.

How much difference could the mayor really make?

Amen, rustic -- great to see you, BTW. Ask Washington DC how mayoral control is working out for them.

To be honest, I don't see middle class parents with means of any race flocking to enroll their kids in neighborhood city schools anywhere. That doesn't take away from DPS' unique issues; it only means that we should be trying to understand what has worked for urban kids in individual schools or programs, and to plan for scaling that up.

Also, whoever runs Detroit schools ought to have a passion for education and deep knowledge of what actually goes on in the classroom. That's important.

**firstandten** · July-28-10, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

Oh no, I can't allow you to slide with this. If people who currently reside in Detroit feel disenfranchised and disempowered it is because they made a choice not be involved and informed and not because of human nature. Don't put this on human nature. That's a cop-out

These people didn't give two shits about the school system. These people who are crying about losing their right to vote are the same people who either didn't pay attention to the eroding of the school system or they were the one profiting from the DPS coffers. The idea that these people would care so much about DPS is a joke. The parents are up in arms yet their children was being social promoted and these kids are dumb as rocks and the parents and the activists want to keep the same system that has failed child after child. Get this on the ballot so that I can vote yes. I'm not disenfranchised and disempowered and I want to prove it.

As I'm been saying the folks fussin and cussin about puting this advisory issue on the ballot are part of a very vocal minority. They know they are in the minority and thats why they don't want the issue on the ballot. Otherwise they would say lets have a vote we feel the people would side with us, but no, they really understand that they would lose if the people did vote on this.

Basically I'm tired of these so-call "grass-roots" folks, they are obstructionists of the first order. Quick to tear down, things but offer nothing to replace it. Or their ideas aren't grounded in any type of reality. The school board meetings gives them an outlet and a say that they don't have anywhere else in local government. And as you said some are most likely profiting from their manipulation of the board. What they seem to fail to understand that under the present governmance system Detroit will NEVER get a top tier superintendent to run the schools. Nobody worth a $ 200,000 / yr paycheck will come here to get beat up by 11 different agendas and their grassroots cronies.

All the grass roots folks have to do is get up and yell real loud that they are going to recall you if you don't do what we tell you to, watch the board members fall right in line.

**R8RBOB** · July-28-10, 03:06 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Do you not believe that "you have a lot of people in Detroit who FEEL as if they've been disenfranchished and disempowered for a long time'"? To me this feeling, which English correctly identifies as a perception that may or nay not accord with current objective reality [[but certainly has a factual basis in both local and national history), and the defensiveness, fear, resentment, and xenophobia it brings out in some people is our second greatest political problem in the City of Detroit after lack of resources [[yes, ahead of corruption...).

I agree with you about the Board of Ed., and the sudden proprietary feeling of some of our citizens for an institution they couldn't have cared less about a few days ago. And the role of some of our local political power mongers in whipping up and encouraging this storm of the same old resentments is pretty despicable. But to deny that the feelings outlined above by English exist or that they aren't real is, to me, to miss and potentially fail to deal with an essential part of our local political landscape.

I won't say that people have never experienced feeling disenfranchised or disempowered because we know that people did experience those things. However, this is Detroit that we are talking about. The same Detroit that elected Coleman Young to five terms as mayor. The same Detroit that reelected Kwame Kilpatrick to an second term when everyone knew he failed as mayor. These were not disenfranchised and disempowered voters reelecting those two. These were not suburbanites voting these guys in. These voters were Detroit voters.

This is Detroit where voters would prefer to stay home on election day and not vote. This is their choice. No one is locking them up. No one is threatening them. This is of their own choosing.

**firstandten** · July-28-10, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by English

Amen, rustic -- great to see you, BTW. Ask Washington DC how mayoral control is working out for them.

Rhee is heavy handed which is much of her problem but here is a balanced article about how its working there

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...T2010013100257

Given where the district was and where it is now, I would say its working, not perfectly but working

We will have the same type of issues here. People want change but they don't want it to hurt. Problem is sometimes you will suffer some pain when you have radical change like Detroit and most urban systems

**R8RBOB** · July-28-10, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by English

The problem with DPS is the problem with urban education -- but on steroids, just as all of Detroit's issues are more dire because of our anemic socioeconomic base inside city limits. No one has urban education on a districtwide scale figured out yet. We know how to do small scale urban ed. It is done well in pockets, including the two schools that produced me and my friends, and the two schools where I taught. There are comparables in urban centers all over the country. We just don't know how to scale it up yet.

I won't go on and on today. Just will reiterate that while fixing the schools is a major task for the city, it's not the main reason why people are not moving to Detroit. The situation in urban schools nationwide is pretty dire, but it doesn't stop young college grads, the creative class, and immigrants from flocking to other cities. People who are looking for the best public schools in the United States typically do NOT move into the city.

You asked what did I think about this. Here is my answer.

I think it is a great idea to reduce the school system by districts. Here is the thing: back in late 2008, a phrase was born: TOO BIG TO FAIL. DPS is too big to fail therefore the entire school system suffers because it is too big. Perhaps DPS could have been broken down by districts and have a district supervisor in charge of the schools in that district. Instead of having a board, you could have the people elect a superintendent to fill the administrative role that would be needed to manage the system but the district supervisors would be appointed by the superintendent to run the schools in their district. Just a thought.

**EastsideAl** · July-28-10, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

I won't say that people have never experienced feeling disenfranchised or disempowered because we know that people did experience those things. However, this is Detroit that we are talking about. The same Detroit that elected Coleman Young to five terms as mayor. The same Detroit that reelected Kwame Kilpatrick to an second term when everyone knew he failed as mayor.

Your point is... what exactly? That voters sometimes make choices you [[or I) don't agree with for reasons you don't agree with? That people in Detroit somehow no longer have a right to their historical feeling of disempowerment because you say they should get over it and act the way you want? And who is the "everyone" who "knew" that Kwame failed in his first term, since he was reelected? [[Or does "everyone" not include Detroiters? To say nothing of the wealthy white businessmen who contributed to his campaign). I was no fan of Kwame's, and certainly wasn't one of Coleman Young's after his first term either, but to go down the road you're going down with the kind of statements you make here is exactly the kind of thing that causes people to believe they have something to feel resentful and fearful about.

**EastsideAl** · July-28-10, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

You asked what did I think about this. Here is my answer.

I think it is a great idea to reduce the school system by districts.

You do know that that was tried for quite a while, and it was a disaster. Or haven't you been around the city long enough to remember that?

**R8RBOB** · July-28-10, 04:49 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

You do know that that was tried for quite a while, and it was a disaster. Or haven't you been around the city long enough to remember that?

Dude, I'm only 39. Since you have all the answers then perhaps you can enlighten us young'uns and tell us when the city had school districts?

**R8RBOB** · July-28-10, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

Your point is... what exactly? That voters sometimes make choices you [[or I) don't agree with for reasons you don't agree with? That people in Detroit somehow no longer have a right to their historical feeling of disempowerment because you say they should get over it and act the way you want? And who is the "everyone" who "knew" that Kwame failed in his first term, since he was reelected? [[Or does "everyone" not include Detroiters? To say nothing of the wealthy white businessmen who contributed to his campaign). I was no fan of Kwame's, and certainly wasn't one of Coleman Young's after his first term either, but to go down the road you're going down with the kind of statements you make here is exactly the kind of thing that causes people to believe they have something to feel resentful and fearful about.

There you go again with the history.....
I suppose if I was old as you then perhaps I could understand your feelings but as I stated in the previous post, I'm 39 which means that I didn't starting voting until 1989 when I voted for Coleman Young for his last term in office. Now, I think I mentioned that I understood that there was a time when people were being denied their right to vote. I would not be naive to say that couldn't happen again because it could, however, the conversation is about Detroit voters circa 2010 not 1960. If voters, older voters still carry feelings about being disempowered then I'm sorry but I can't relate. I have never been disempowered to vote. I have never had my voting privileges revoked nor I had to confront an angry White voter attempting to keep me from voting.

I believe my point to English was pretty simple. If voters in Detroit, today July 28th, 2010 are disenfranchised and disempowered then it is on them not the White man or the boogeyman, themselves. BTW, I would not want anyone to feel resentment or fear because of me. It is just my point of view.