Illegal to "Seduce an unmarried woman." or laugh in church?

**Meddle** · July-27-10, 04:47 AM

Posted: July 27, 2010
Weird rules still on the books in metro Detroit
Some may discriminate, be unconstitutional

It's a crime to sing the "Star-Spangled Banner" at a dance in Michigan. Having a sandwich and a drink in a cemetery is a no-no in Fenton. And throwing snowballs is illegal in Clawson.

Written decades ago, dozens of unusual, amusing and sometimes unconstitutional laws are still on the books in Michigan and in metro Detroit communities, a Free Press review of thousands of pages of state and local laws shows.

Many of the local ordinances -- bans on spitting in church in Harper Woods and white canes in public unless you're blind in Pontiac -- were enacted in the early 20th Century after the state passed a bill in 1895 permitting communities to criminalize so-called immoral behavior.

Legal experts and personal liberty groups say there's nothing stopping police from enforcing these laws -- and some have.

"While we can all laugh about how outdated these ordinances and laws are, it is no laughing matter when they are enforced," said Michael Steinberg, legal director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Michigan.

More here: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...te=fullarticle

Some strange things included for sure!!

**Genesyxx** · July-27-10, 06:58 AM

I want to know who was spitting in church so much they decided to make it a crime.

**bailey** · July-27-10, 07:35 AM

But Tobocman said many lawmakers were uninterested in repealing laws dealing with immorality for fear of being perceived as "promoting gay behavior or being against the family and other such nonsense.

if it's "nonsense" then why are they afraid of doing it?

**DanFromDetroit** · July-27-10, 07:39 AM

Wow - illegal to swear in front of women and children, how laughable

/snark
//throwing a dead body in the street is illegal in Warren? better repeal that one soon

**jcole** · July-27-10, 07:50 AM

Originally Posted by Genesyxx

I want to know who was spitting in church so much they decided to make it a crime.

Back 'in the day' people chewed tobacco and needed to get rid of the juice by spitting. Most public places supplied spittoons to take care of the deed, but church wasn't deemed the proper place to chew, so by outlawing spitting, they were trying to get people to stop chewing in church. The only other way to dispose of the remains of a good chaw was to swallow, which would probably precipitated vomiting in church; not good either.

**Don K** · July-27-10, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by bailey

if it's "nonsense" then why are they afraid of doing it?

I suspect there are quite a few legislators who, while they might agree the laws are nonsense, believe voting to repeal would only stir up the Church Ladies and the professional moralists of such as the Michigan Family Association and stimulate a primary challenge or a general election challenge accusing them of promoting immorality in the State of Michigan, so they just leave the laws alone.

Not only is adultery illegal in Michigan, it's a felony, so we have an admitted felon running for Governor this year, and I suspect many of the same people who would object most to repealing the law will vote for him quite happily next week [[and in November if it comes to that).

By the way, the anti-sodomy law remains on the books. Now, IANAL but from reading the law it seems unconstitutionally vague to me, because it really doesn't way what you're not allowed to do. Other states went into almost pornographic detail in their sodomy laws, but I guess Michigan's was written in a more delicate time.

Lewd and lascivious cohabitation [[shacking up, I guess) also is illegal, but is only a misdemeanor. The second part of that section prohibits open and gross lewdness and lascivious behavior, which I guess would be something like having sex or jerking off in public.

Finally, there are three sections prohibiting gross indecency, one for two men, one for two women, and one for a man and a woman. The note in the Michigan Compiled Laws says the law was upheld as constitutional as applied to forced fellatio or fellatio with a minor. Now, it seems to me those acts already are covered under the laws against rape, so in that instance it seems kind of redundant to me.

Which brings me to the last point, which is that repeal of some of these laws would be opposed by prosecutors who like having multiple laws to charge someone with violating, so they can drop most as part of the plea bargaining process. For example, one could hypothetically be charged with adultery, one of the degrees of rape, and gross indecency [[and in the old days sodomy) simultaneously for the same act.

**FlyingJ** · July-27-10, 12:11 PM

It depends on the enforcement. Last time I was in Detroit i tied my alligator to a fire hydrant & the cops didn't do anything

**jtf1972** · July-27-10, 12:55 PM

Holy Ghost!

Ok Ray1936. Let's see you bust me for that!

**Jimaz** · July-27-10, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by DanFromDetroit

Wow - illegal to swear in front of women and children, how laughable

According to FirstAmendmentCenter.org, Boomer's conviction was thrown out.

The Michigan Court of Appeals yesterday struck down a 105-year-old law against using vulgar language in front of women and children, throwing out the conviction of a canoeist who let loose a stream of curses after falling into the water.

**Danny** · July-27-10, 01:27 PM

It's illegal to ride a bike a Detroit without a license. But that law is sleepy.

**Detroitnerd** · July-27-10, 01:28 PM

The punishment for laughing in church is $100 or 30 days in jail. If it were not for this penalty, nobody would ever hear the sermon.

**Jimaz** · July-27-10, 02:28 PM

Attachment 6979
wwjd?

**DanFromDetroit** · July-27-10, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by Jimaz

According to FirstAmendmentCenter.org, Boomer's conviction was thrown out.

I know - it's so cool that you can say "f*ck off" to any mom & kid! This guy deserved a medal for championing the spirit of the 1rst amendment.

**Detroitnerd** · July-27-10, 02:35 PM

Originally Posted by DanFromDetroit

I know - it's so cool that you can say "f*ck off" to any mom & kid! This guy deserved a medal for championing the spirit of the 1rst amendment.

If you were to dump out of a canoe and a woman and a little child happened to be nearby, you might find yourself in quite the same situation! In which case, you might alter your opinion of this ruling and the ACLU.

**DanFromDetroit** · July-27-10, 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

If you were to dump out of a canoe and a woman and a little child happened to be nearby, you might find yourself in quite the same situation! In which case, you might alter your opinion of this ruling and the ACLU.

If this is what they think is the best thing for the ACLU to put it's power behind, then they've truly lost their way. Defend people that need defending, not some schmuck with a 100$ fine for offending a little kid. If I found myself in a similar situation, I'd open my checkbook, say I'm sorry and chalk it up to a lesson in decency since my parents obviously screwed up teaching me morals. I've been rear-ended on the expressway & still had the decency to keep my language clean since her kids were in the backseat during our "discussion".

**dtowncitylover** · July-27-10, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by Genesyxx

I want to know who was spitting in church so much they decided to make it a crime.

Remember the Great Church Spitting War of 1894? Started at Ste. Anne's, then the Methodist churches, soon every church was plagued. By the time it reached the synagogues, it was too late, the police had to use force to stop them. Awful days for the city. Heard the Nain Rouge was sighted just before.

**Detroitnerd** · July-27-10, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by DanFromDetroit

If this is what they think is the best thing for the ACLU to put it's power behind, then they've truly lost their way. Defend people that need defending, not some schmuck with a 100$ fine for offending a little kid. If I found myself in a similar situation, I'd open my checkbook, say I'm sorry and chalk it up to a lesson in decency since my parents obviously screwed up teaching me morals. I've been rear-ended on the expressway & still had the decency to keep my language clean since her kids were in the backseat during our "discussion".

Um, Dan, have you ever heard that the speech that most needs defending is sometimes considered obnoxious by society at large? If you look at free speech cases, you'll see this sentiment expressed time and again. Because it's always the "fringe" stuff they go after first, because reasonable people often don't object, but it's a way the government gets its foot in the door before going after the next person. Fine, upstanding people such as yourself don't need the ACLU to defend them. The ACLU is there to defend the Constitution, not you. Try to remember that before you start shooting your mouth off about who has "lost their way."

LodgeDodger · July-27-10, 03:18 PM

The law in reference to laughing in church reminds me of a funeral Mother and I attended. Of course, it was a sad occasion, but one woman came out of the bathroom with her skirt tucked into her pantyhose. You know what happens when you're not supposed to laugh...

I know, shame on us. Were she closer to us, we'd have said something. Poor thing was sitting near the front of the church.

**DanFromDetroit** · July-27-10, 03:31 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Um, Dan, have you ever heard that the speech that most needs defending is sometimes considered obnoxious by society at large? If you look at free speech cases, you'll see this sentiment expressed time and again. Because it's always the "fringe" stuff they go after first, because reasonable people often don't object, but it's a way the government gets its foot in the door before going after the next person. Fine, upstanding people such as yourself don't need the ACLU to defend them. The ACLU is there to defend the Constitution, not you. Try to remember that before you start shooting your mouth off about who has "lost their way."

If you'd bother to try to understand my post instead of bashing me for "shooting [my] mouth off" you would have realized that I'm all for free speech. Maybe we should meet in a park full of kindergartners and tell each other how we truly feel - after all, it's protected [[ACLU approved) speech. My point was that maybe they should lobby for larger issues where they can do more good in protecting the rights of the oppressed. But don't let that stop you from getting all hot and bothered because I questioned the ACLU's great and powerful ideals.

**East Detroit** · July-27-10, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by DanFromDetroit

But don't let that stop you from getting all hot and bothered because I questioned the ACLU's great and powerful ideals.

Never heard of a slippery slope?

They're drawing the line way ahead of you so you're not incarcerated for your stupid comments.

Bearinabox · July-27-10, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by DanFromDetroit

If this is what they think is the best thing for the ACLU to put it's power behind, then they've truly lost their way. Defend people that need defending, not some schmuck with a 100$ fine for offending a little kid. If I found myself in a similar situation, I'd open my checkbook, say I'm sorry and chalk it up to a lesson in decency since my parents obviously screwed up teaching me morals. I've been rear-ended on the expressway & still had the decency to keep my language clean since her kids were in the backseat during our "discussion".

I don't really get the big deal about swearing in front of children. I don't think I'm scarred for life as a result of having been occasionally exposed to "obscene" language as a small child. What's the worst thing that can happen if you say "fuck" in front of a six-year-old?

**Jimaz** · July-27-10, 04:42 PM

Originally Posted by Bearinabox

What's the worst thing that can happen if you say "fuck" in front of a six-year-old?

They'll repeat it in church while laughing.

DetroitDad · July-27-10, 04:45 PM

a Free Press review of thousands of pages of state and local laws shows.

Why isn't there a expiration date on laws? For one, once the population that voted them in are long gone, the next generation is still stuck with them, without proper representation.

[[an expiration date is probably oversimplifying things, but you get the idea).

**Jimaz** · July-27-10, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitDad

Why isn't there a expiration date on laws?

I think there can be. I'm no attorney but isn't that what they call a sunset clause?

**Ray1936** · July-27-10, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by jtf1972

Holy Ghost!

Ok Ray1936. Let's see you bust me for that!

Ain't gonna do that. Just look for the ticket in the mail........

Some of the regulations of the Michigan Liquor Control Commission [[MLCC) used to be just as ridiculous and strange years back; hopefully they've modernized their laws of late. For example, "no proprieter shall spend more than two dollars for any beer tap handle."