No DPS control for mayor

**firstandten** · July-14-10, 12:03 PM

This is a really disappointing development. No matter where you fall on this issue there needs to be some serious debate and the advisory vote could have been a starting point in the discussion of governance of the school district.

The opponents of mayoral control has been able to frame this discussion in a couple of different ways

One Detroiters will lose independence to govern ourselves and big business/outsiders/charter schools will control our school district

This is a variation of the "watch out the outsiders want to take our assets from us"
argument that certain members of the community many of which are grass roots related have been making for decades, that is a tried and true method of getting peoples attention.

Never mind that we are supporting a dyfunctional system of governance that didn't work before the Engler takeover, didn't work during the Engler takeover, didn't work after the Engler takeover.

An independent school board governance system doesn't work for many of the same reasons an at-large city council doesn't work. You don't have a centralized point of accountability for results, of lack thereof that the voters can recognize and act upon at the polls.

So essentially these people are saying I know this system of governance doesn't work but its ours and I don't want outsiders telling us how to run our messed up system, we'll just keep doing the same thing and hopefully we will get a different result. We all know the definition of that kind of thinking

Another argument is that the mayor doesn't know anything about the schools, and he has enough on his plate running the city and doesn't need to be running the schools

While technically true,
I'm sure the mayor doesn't know much about the city water system either so he goes out and hires the best person he can find. If you find yourself having to boil water everyday because its unsafe, you better believe the mayor will replace that person or he will be replaced. The mayor doesn't have to be an education expert hell, I would consider most members of the current board as not being education experts. He needs to hire the right person then set the agenda for what he wants to see.

For as much as the mayor has on his plate, the health of the city and the health of the school district is linked and the mayor not only should but must have a say. People with school age children will avoid Detroit not only because of the crime but crappy schools as well.

For example when Kalamazoo started the Promise, people moved into Kalamazoo just so there kids could attend the schools in the district, and that was in a bad economy.

Mayor Bing, talks about running the schools but he really doesn't want to, not because its a lot of work, but it would put a level of accountability on him that would make it difficult for him or any mayor to be re-elected without showing results.

Thats exactly what voters need ! a level of accountability from our politicans that will make them uncomfortable and will make them think out of the box.

So I guess people will continue to vote with their feet when it comes to their school age children.

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/a...te=fullarticle

**Danny** · July-14-10, 12:12 PM

Years ago KING KWAME came to my church to rally my members to vote yes on Proposal E to have him run the show for Detroit Public Schools. After the November ballot, Prop E. failed. This new proposal to the KING BING run DPS is terrible ideal. It could mean the end of the Detroit School Board if it passes. DPS cannot run without a school board. It's like a shopping mall can't survive without its anchor department store or a bowling lanes without bowling leagues. I urge all Detroiters to vote HELL NO on the KING BING's takeover of Detroit Public Schools. Let the people run it.

WORD FROM THE STREET PROPHET

Because education must be taught by the people, not politics.

Neda, I miss you.

**DetroitPlanner** · July-14-10, 12:18 PM

The real issue here is that there are no minimum standards for the school board. Therefore all we get running for it are mostly imbiciles who are drunk with their own power. Time and time again this gets proven by thier own actions.

I have thought long and hard about running for it, but I would never want to be on a board with half these people. I would be beating my head against the wall while these power mongers would do everything they could do to squash anything progressive.

**firstandten** · July-14-10, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Danny

This new proposal to the KING BING run DPS is terrible ideal. It could mean the end of the Detroit School Board if it passes. DPS cannot run without a school board. It's like a shopping mall can't survive without its anchor department store or a bowling lanes without bowling leagues. I urge all Detroiters to vote HELL NO on the KING BING's takeover of Detroit Public School. Let the people run it.

I guess its better to have something that is run poorly, doesn't educate its students properly, fiscally out in left field, rather than have nothing at all

**Novine** · July-14-10, 12:26 PM

All it takes for the legislature and the Governor to sign off on a law that gives the Mayor control of the schools. It happened under Engler when the state took over the school district, although that turned out to be such a disaster, no one even wants to acknowledge we've been down that road. The real question is why won't anyone in Lansing take the lead on this, if they think this is the best answer to Detroit's terrible schools.

"The real issue here is that there are no minimum standards for the school board."

Detroit has the same standards as every other school district in the state. Some are well managed, others are as poorly managed and performing as Detroit but since they are smaller, no one talks about it.

**SWMAP** · July-14-10, 12:28 PM

from Detroit News July 10: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100...-no-candidates
"Nobody wants to run for two available seats on the Detroit Public Schools board.
The deadline to get on the Aug. 3 primary ballot passed May 11 without anyone filing, meaning only a write-in candidate can be elected this fall."

**fryar** · July-14-10, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

from Detroit News July 10: http://www.detnews.com/article/20100...-no-candidates
"Nobody wants to run for two available seats on the Detroit Public Schools board.
The deadline to get on the Aug. 3 primary ballot passed May 11 without anyone filing, meaning only a write-in candidate can be elected this fall."

DetroitPlanner for School Board it is!

Is there a precedent for electing someone using their online handle?

**firstandten** · July-14-10, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

All it takes for the legislature and the Governor to sign off on a law that gives the Mayor control of the schools. It happened under Engler when the state took over the school district, although that turned out to be such a disaster, no one even wants to acknowledge we've been down that road. The real question is why won't anyone in Lansing take the lead on this, if they think this is the best answer to Detroit's terrible schools. .

The political will is not there. After the election the politicans may get brave and if the governor is a Repub he will most likely sign off since he won't be worried about a Detroit backlash

**DetroitPlanner** · July-14-10, 12:41 PM

Originally Posted by fryar

DetroitPlanner for School Board it is!

Is there a precedent for electing someone using their online handle?

If nominated I will not run!
If elected I will not serve!

**jbd441** · July-14-10, 12:48 PM

Good post First and Ten. Some school board members should have knowledge of teaching or at least some form of prior experience in running a school. Granted business experience is a plus so a good solid school board can compliment each other. My Dad was a school board president in the 70's and what he lacked in teaching or superintendent experience he made up for in the business aspect.

Maybe outside influence or some sort of control is needed.... the present board is a joke. They should be replaced. DPS can never improve with the status quo.

Just my 2 cents.

**SWMAP** · July-14-10, 01:04 PM

Smaller boards don't have the money and contracts that the DPS board does/did. Big city boards are patronage enterprises and that's why the Board wants to stay in and get control back - money for friends and family and goodies/pwer for selves.

**firstandten** · July-14-10, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

Smaller boards don't have the money and contracts that the DPS board does/did. Big city boards are patronage enterprises and that's why the Board wants to stay in and get control back - money for friends and family and goodies/pwer for selves.

Yes, yes, yes, and a jumping off point for starting a political career makes that $30 per meeting a bargain

**SWMAP** · July-14-10, 01:12 PM

This insight about yesterday's non-action from Rochelle Riley's column on July 10:

"Detroit City Council President Charles Pugh said that the mayor of Detroit should oversee the Detroit Public Schools -- but not the current mayor.
And not by himself.
Pugh, 38, said he would not block efforts to place on the November ballot the question of whether the mayor should supervise the schools because it would ensure that voters decide the issue. But he has different ideas for how the schools should be administered.
"I don't think it's necessarily this mayor," said the former journalist and Murray Wright High School graduate. "... I think there should be a school board, but I think it should be appointed by the City Council and mayor, along with a community council of parents. People will say it takes away people's right to vote, but you vote for the City Council. You vote for the mayor."

**Novine** · July-14-10, 01:27 PM

"Smaller boards don't have the money and contracts that the DPS board does/did. Big city boards are patronage enterprises and that's why the Board wants to stay in and get control back - money for friends and family and goodies/pwer for selves."

You're wrong there. There's plenty of money in education and in a small town, the school district is often the largest employer.

**firstandten** · July-14-10, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by SWMAP

This insight about yesterday's non-action from Rochelle Riley's column on July 10:

"Detroit City Council President Charles Pugh said that the mayor of Detroit should oversee the Detroit Public Schools -- but not the current mayor.
And not by himself.
Pugh, 38, said he would not block efforts to place on the November ballot the question of whether the mayor should supervise the schools because it would ensure that voters decide the issue. But he has different ideas for how the schools should be administered.
"I don't think it's necessarily this mayor," said the former journalist and Murray Wright High School graduate. "... I think there should be a school board, but I think it should be appointed by the City Council and mayor, along with a community council of parents. People will say it takes away people's right to vote, but you vote for the City Council. You vote for the mayor."

Thats the kind of discussions we need to have. There are many ways to address this, with any combination of mayor, city council and community imput. However I don't want the council to touch anything like this until we get council-by-district. As long as we have an at-large council I would have problems if they had too much imput.

**SWMAP** · July-14-10, 01:32 PM

But how many school building are getting built is small towns and how many computers purchased? In the big city the multiplier is huge.

**bailey** · July-14-10, 02:34 PM

so, the general consensus which seems to be emerging here and elsewhere is that the Detroit electorate is incapable of electing a competent School Board and there must be some modification to limit their input either through an appointment process by the City Council or by direct control under the mayor's office or some other hybrid.

If one follows that logic; if the Detroit electorate is incapable of evaluating candidates and generally electing a school board, how are they capable of responsibly electing anyone for anything? If they cant be trusted to elect competent leaders to have a direct say in what happens in their children's lives, then why are we allowing Detroit to elect a city council or mayor? perhaps the entire city should have its leadership appointed by the State legislature or the Governor?

**jbd441** · July-14-10, 03:01 PM

Maybe so Bailey, because the present system isn't working is it. What is your answer to all this? What ideas do you have in shoring up all the corruption in the school system and how to you get DPS budget balanced?

**firstandten** · July-14-10, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

so, the general consensus which seems to be emerging here and elsewhere is that the Detroit electorate is incapable of electing a competent School Board and there must be some modification to limit their input either through an appointment process by the City Council or by direct control under the mayor's office or some other hybrid.

If one follows that logic; if the Detroit electorate is incapable of evaluating candidates and generally electing a school board, how are they capable of responsibly electing anyone for anything? If they cant be trusted to elect competent leaders to have a direct say in what happens in their children's lives, then why are we allowing Detroit to elect a city council or mayor? perhaps the entire city should have its leadership appointed by the State legislature or the Governor?

First of all I disagree with your logic, Detroiters have elected all kinds of people to the school board some folks are very good but when you are 1 or 2 or 3 members of a board of 11 the good ones have a limited sphere of influence, same problem with the at-large council. The problem is more institutional than electorial. In my opinion Detroiters do not do the research and settle for name recognition for too many of the lesser seats of goverment. However, I could make an argument that Detroiters with the exception of CAY's fourth and fifth terms and Kwame's second term have done a good job of electing its mayors in recent history.

Because I believe the problem is more institutional I would make the point that it wouldn't make a difference who you elected, the competing agendas the ability to influence multi-million dollar contracts and thousands of employees indicates that there should be a more centralized point of accountability to the voters.

**firstandten** · July-14-10, 03:35 PM

Another example . When schools need to be closed, the elected school board members are put under so much pressure by the community that only a fraction of the schools that should have been closed were closed. This went on for years

So when Bobb comes in and looks like a heartless man for closing all of these school all he did was take care of what was deferred for so long.

This is the most blatant example I can think of the board not putting the students and the fiscal integrity of the district first.

**bailey** · July-14-10, 03:48 PM

First of all I disagree with your logic, Detroiters have elected all kinds of people to the school board some folks are very good but when you are 1 or 2 or 3 members of a board of 11 the good ones have a limited sphere of influence, same problem with the at-large council

So? Americans at- large elect a lot of good people and a lot of dundering morons. No one..other than the teabaggers with their push to take Senators away from the public ..is trying to take away the right to elect morons , why so much concern at the school board level? Want a better school board? demand more from them by not re-electing morons.

The problem is more institutional than electorial. In my opinion Detroiters do not do the research and settle for name recognition for too many of the lesser seats of goverment. However, I could make an argument that Detroiters with the exception of CAY's fourth and fifth terms and Kwame's second term have done a good job of electing its mayors in recent history.

So, when it comes to voters in Detroit, what you're saying is a stopped clock is right twice a day? I mean you said that one term of KK and Archer [[i think the jury might be out on bing) was the only time they got it right in 30 years? I'd say you were being very generous with the KK 1st term. do we even count Cockrel?

You can't be saying Monica Conyers, Shelia Cockrel, Pugh, Reeves, BRC, Joel lo---er Coleman Young, Jr...etc, weren't elected solely on name recognition. I know Joel aka Colman brings a WEALTH of legislative experience to the State Legislature after spending his summers as a subway sandwich artist.

Look, I'm just saying that the argument can be made that if Detroit voters can not be trusted to vote for a school board after years of very well publicized issues and failures, they what is the logic in allowing them to vote for anything?

Let's just be honest about what this measure is all about, it's about taking away the vote from those who, in your assessment, do not do the research and settle for name recognition for too many seats of government.

I say that is a slippery slope.

**bailey** · July-14-10, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by jbd441

Maybe so Bailey, because the present system isn't working is it. What is your answer to all this? What ideas do you have in shoring up all the corruption in the school system and how to you get DPS budget balanced?

Stop electing sex offenders, illiterates, thieves., and duly adjudicated un-fit parents to the school board. That would be a start.

**casscorridor** · July-14-10, 04:22 PM

Yeah... this is a slap in the face to democracy. A slap in the face to all those parents and citizens who are informed and participate in elections and in the school board and school system. This measure says that we as Detroiters can't run our own lives, that we need to forgo democracy because we can't possible be responsible voters. I've never seen such great enthusiasm about dismantling democratic institutions.

There was great enthusiasm for Bob Bobb to clean stuff up, so great that we blindly followed him, ignoring his real agenda which is closing up and charterizing the district. But at least that is temporary, and control is suppose to be given back to the council eventually.

I also have to point out the language used frequently in this forum, such as the need to "take away their right to vote." Who is taking away whos right? This is a ballot initiative after all, so the voters would be taking their own right to vote away. Even though I'm sure many on this forum would be ecstatic if the state government were force something like this, like they did with Bob Bobb.

Change for the sake of change is not good. Yes, the school system needs a radical change, but is giving the mayor the power going to change things for the better? Did giving Bobb power change things for the better? Are we are so ready for change that we are willing accept anything? This isn't good.

**firstandten** · July-14-10, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

Yeah... this is a slap in the face to democracy. A slap in the face to all those parents and citizens who are informed and participate in elections and in the school board and school system. This measure says that we as Detroiters can't run our own lives, that we need to forgo democracy because we can't possible be responsible voters. I've never seen such great enthusiasm about dismantling democratic institutions.

There was great enthusiasm for Bob Bobb to clean stuff up, so great that we blindly followed him, ignoring his real agenda which is closing up and charterizing the district. But at least that is temporary, and control is suppose to be given back to the council eventually.

I also have to point out the language used frequently in this forum, such as the need to "take away their right to vote." Who is taking away whos right? This is a ballot initiative after all, so the voters would be taking their own right to vote away. Even though I'm sure many on this forum would be ecstatic if the state government were force something like this, like they did with Bob Bobb.

Change for the sake of change is not good. Yes, the school system needs a radical change, but is giving the mayor the power going to change things for the better? Did giving Bobb power change things for the better? Are we are so ready for change that we are willing accept anything? This isn't good.

I think you are reading too much into this, first of all this is not taking away anyone's right to vote. After all you vote for the mayor and other officials.

Change for the sake of change is not good as you said, but one needs to understand when change is needed and one needs to understand that doing the same ole, same ole just isn't going to cut it when it comes to Detroit's kids.

This measure does not say Detroiters can't run their lives, hell, we elect a mayor don't we ?

That is an emotional response that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.
Becuase if I believed what you just said.
my response would be.. based on the results of our school district no we can't run our lives and we don't deserve to vote for a school board

But I don't believe that.

Its simply a system of governance thats not working for us and we need an alternative.

**Det_ard** · July-14-10, 04:55 PM

Empirically, Detroit seems capable of fielding and electing perhaps a maximum of a half-dozen good candidates for the offices of Mayor, City Council and the DPS board in any given election. In my observation there's a higher chance that the better candidates will be found in the more visible positions, like Mayor and City Council.

So while it's preferable IMO to have an elected school board in charge of the school system, given the dearth of competence amongst city politicians [[and yes, electors, by extension) maybe we ought to concentrate power in the offices most likely to be inhabited by those with a better chance at being competent.

Democracy at its finest? No, but an attempt to make a crappie out of crap.