Poor Quality of Work on Downtown Improvements

[DetroitDad]

Downtown Detroit has been re paving new street corners all over Downtown, to the point where it seems like it's almost every corner. I hate to call attention to the emperor's new clothes, but I have some complaints.

• Several new street corner ramps don't even come close to lining up with each other, let alone the crosswalk. This might sound silly to some, but has actually almost gotten me hit while pushing my daughter in her stroller. The new street ramps also do not appear to meet ADA standards for the visually impaired [[crosswalks are not where people are instructed to cross the street, or where the blind are likely to cross the street).
• Crews are very messy... spraying bits of cement on cars, buildings, and other streetscape elements. Go look at the Woodward flower beds, caked with cement, in front of the Woodward entrances to the David Whitney Building.
• The new pavement styles don't meet other pavement styles put in during the Super Bowl. If the pavers are too expensive, you could try to paint them.

I'm still waiting to see how the Grand Circus Park improvements turn out around the "chair statues" flanking Woodward Avenue, and waiting for the West Grand Circus Park fountain to be turned back on. The Grand Circus Park fountain has been off since May.

[fryar]

I'm surprised at that. Most of the curbs, sidewalks, and so on were in pretty good shape, at least 2 years ago.

[East Detroit]

the "chair statues"

How dare you blaspheme our best Mayor ever.

[DetroitDad]

I'm surprised at that. Most of the curbs, sidewalks, and so on were in pretty good shape, at least 2 years ago.

I am no expert, but I thought that too. Some needed it, but I have to question intersection crosswalks like the one at Washington Boulevard and Park Avenue.

Maybe this was just stimulus money?

[Hermod]

How dare you blaspheme our best Mayor ever.

How about "better than......."? Comparatives work better than superlatives.

[stasu1213]

I am no expert, but I thought that too. Some needed it, but I have to question intersection crosswalks like the one at Washington Boulevard and Park Avenue.

Maybe this was just stimulus money?

I hope the stimulus money is not being used in a manner of using only half of it for cheap material and labor cost while pocketing the rest

[DetroitPlanner]

Nope you can thank ADA and lawsuits for these new curb-cuts. The old ones for some reason were not up to snuff so the City has to spend tens of millions fix stuff that ain't broken. The pavement was required to be smoother, hence you have to get rid of anything but plain-jane concrete; and the end at the ramps are required to have bumpy things and be a standard contrasting color.

[Zacha341]

But that would not be a precedent in the D... where stealing [[an 'exploitation' of it citizens ironically by the same folks that claim to be down for the people!) is justified by the "they do it too!" mind set, codified and kept silent by the code of "no snitching"...!

I hope the stimulus money is not being used in a manner of using only half of it for cheap material and labor cost while pocketing the rest

[Novine]

"Nope you can thank ADA and lawsuits for these new curb-cuts. The old ones for some reason were not up to snuff so the City has to spend tens of millions fix stuff that ain't broken."

You mean you can thank the city for not doing it right in the first place. Anything put in within the last several years should have been done that way in the first place.

[ScienceFair]

Amen. Thank you, Novine!

[fryar]

Nope you can thank ADA and lawsuits for these new curb-cuts. The old ones for some reason were not up to snuff so the City has to spend tens of millions fix stuff that ain't broken. The pavement was required to be smoother, hence you have to get rid of anything but plain-jane concrete; and the end at the ramps are required to have bumpy things and be a standard contrasting color.

Assuming DetroitPlanner knows what he's talking about [[no reason to think he doesn't), there's our answer. I could certainly see the city being cheap about the new improvements with the current budgetary situation.

Point taken, Novine.

[DetroitHabitater]

Does anyone know what the 3 posts next to the [[day-twa/Big D) new metal inlays are even for? The one closest to the street always has metal relief in it.

Does anyone know what propose they serve?

[DetroitPlanner]

You mean you can thank the city for not doing it right in the first place. Anything put in within the last several years should have been done that way in the first place.

ADA lawsuits have cost municipalities hundreds of millions of dollars over the last few years. The law was written by congress but the courts have made previous requirements more stringent as cases have been lost over the last several years. In many cases the Cities had ignored the disabled populations. Detroit was a leader in sidewalk ramps. Detroit however has been putting in sidewalk ramps since the 1970's, well before the law was passed or the lawsuits that made them more stringent. At issue here is minute slope differences.

[kraig]

ADA lawsuits have cost municipalities hundreds of millions of dollars over the last few years. The law was written by congress but the courts have made previous requirements more stringent as cases have been lost over the last several years. In many cases the Cities had ignored the disabled populations. Detroit was a leader in sidewalk ramps. Detroit however has been putting in sidewalk ramps since the 1970's, well before the law was passed or the lawsuits that made them more stringent. At issue here is minute slope differences.

Detroit may have been a leader, but the city's not up to par right now. Jefferson and Randolph between the Tunnel, Ren-Cen, Millender and CAYMC has to be one of the worst pedestrian crossings around. I can only imagine how bad it is for someone with a disability. The City needs to sit down with whoever is suing and work out a good plan. If the issue is a matter of minute slope differences. Then the City may only have to make minute changes to the slopes. Unless of course, the City is looking to maximize the amount that campaign contributors, cough cough, excuse me, I mean honest working contractors receive for the work that needs to be done.

[EastsideAl]

Detroit Planner is precisely correct. The reason all this work is being done [[and it's being done all over the city, not just downtown) is not because the city previously screwed things up. It's because of some very recent changes in case law and standards that have changed the way that the federal ADA statute is interpreted and enforced, and changed how these ramps need to be built to meet the new requirements.

Specifically, they have to conform to a certain slope, have a contrasting color area near the street, have the bumpy raised area you see on the new ramps, etc. Failure to meet these new requirements could potentially leave the city open to essentially bottomless liability from lawsuits and fines. Unfortunately, this has all come at a time when the city can least afford to perform the work needed, and has a reduced staff to do it.

[BVos]

As someone who was involved with streetscape improvements at another area municipality that was sued at the same time and by the same group that sued Detroit, I will say that the party that filed the lawsuits were absolutely correct and justified in filing their lawsuits and they won handily with a settlement between the city and the group because local municipalities quickly realized things were done wrong and that there was no way to win a suit because things were done so obviously wrong. To show the motives of the group that sued, they didn't ask for a dime in settlement money, even though their lawyer could have asked for and received a hefty fee. The groups simply asked that the sued cities present and agree to a court ordered plan, acceptable to both parties, to correct all defective crosswalks in an agreeable time frame.

And the ones in question, as well as several others, are being installed incorrectly. There are some that are awaiting new striping to match the new curb cuts and then they will be ADA compliant and much more pedestrian friendly. But there are a lot that are out of compliance just after examining them for a few seconds. I hope the City is ready to call the insurance or bonding company for errors and omissions on whoever designed and/or constructed this work.

[East Detroit]

How about "better than......."? Comparatives work better than superlatives.

That comparative [[to recently departed) would be much too general. In a sense, it could be applied to a person who was never Mayor. Pingree gets the superlative.

[DetroitDad]

As someone who was involved with streetscape improvements at another area municipality that was sued at the same time and by the same group that sued Detroit, I will say that the party that filed the lawsuits were absolutely correct and justified in filing their lawsuits and they won handily with a settlement between the city and the group because local municipalities quickly realized things were done wrong and that there was no way to win a suit because things were done so obviously wrong. To show the motives of the group that sued, they didn't ask for a dime in settlement money, even though their lawyer could have asked for and received a hefty fee. The groups simply asked that the sued cities present and agree to a court ordered plan, acceptable to both parties, to correct all defective crosswalks in an agreeable time frame.

And the ones in question, as well as several others, are being installed incorrectly. There are some that are awaiting new striping to match the new curb cuts and then they will be ADA compliant and much more pedestrian friendly. But there are a lot that are out of compliance just after examining them for a few seconds. I hope the City is ready to call the insurance or bonding company for errors and omissions on whoever designed and/or constructed this work.

That is very noble of them, to not take any money from the city. I'd be more impressed if they also claimed to not have any ties to the companies that profit from new ADA compliant equipment or projects.

I'm not questioning these individual's integrity, just saying that you know some of these companies would stand more to profit from simply making sure the new rules are enforced, than winning lawsuits.

Or... maybe I've just been diving and swimming in the shark's reef a little too long...

[detroitsgwenivere]

I know this unfunded mandate curb thing has been explained and discussed on a half dozen other threads. Are some of you not doing your DYes homework?

[Russix]

The city had previously put down mostly diagonal curb ramps. The new ADA requirements manual prohibits the use of diagonal curb ramps unless no other design fits. Even where they've rebuilt diagonal curbs they have rebuilt the sidewalk leading up to it 10 feet to change the gradient. They don't really bother me except they seem to pool water and I keep tripping over them at night because the curbs are no longer uniform.

[wolverine]

Downtown Detroit has been re paving new street corners all over Downtown, to the point where it seems like it's almost every corner. I hate to call attention to the emperor's new clothes, but I have some complaints.

• Several new street corner ramps don't even come close to lining up with each other, let alone the crosswalk. This might sound silly to some, but has actually almost gotten me hit while pushing my daughter in her stroller. The new street ramps also do not appear to meet ADA standards for the visually impaired [[crosswalks are not where people are instructed to cross the street, or where the blind are likely to cross the street).
• Crews are very messy... spraying bits of cement on cars, buildings, and other streetscape elements. Go look at the Woodward flower beds, caked with cement, in front of the Woodward entrances to the David Whitney Building.
• The new pavement styles don't meet other pavement styles put in during the Super Bowl. If the pavers are too expensive, you could try to paint them.

An urban designers nightmare is when they implement an incredible streetscaping program only to have city maintenance muck up decorative sidewalks or pavers with a patch of asphalt.

The fact that crosswalks don't line up with truncated dome ramps is annoying. Chicago is notorious for this failure. I was coming home late one night on Michigan Ave using the sidewalk and following the paint marks at a dark corner when I tripped on the curb, expecting there to be a ramp there.

[Johnlodge]

The forum across the street has pictures of new corner ramps in the middle of nowhere where no sidewalks or buildings even exists today. This is required by the ADA?

[wolverine]

The forum across the street has pictures of new corner ramps in the middle of nowhere where no sidewalks or buildings even exists today. This is required by the ADA?

Yes. Even ADA stairs are required in the most ridiculous places you would never think of.