Charging for Belle Isle

**hamtown mike** · July-06-10, 09:22 AM

Howdy Yessers- I want to throw an idea out here and would love to have you all punch as many holes in it as possible.

I went for a bike ride on Belle Isle yesterday. The place was packed. Sadly, it was also trashed. Bottles, broken Styrofoam coolers, dirty diapers pitched into the streets-just a whirling symphony of garbage.

Now the clean up begins, let's hope- And all taxpayers are on the hook for the clean up.

What would be wrong with charging $5 per vehicle to enter the island? -those funds going to pay for clean up service. [[Pedestrians, bicycles and handicapped vehicles free, DYC members receive a badge)

Would charging an entry fee imply some degree of safety and or security?

**ndavies** · July-06-10, 09:47 AM

Do a search for Belle Isle. This idea comes up in most of them. I'm for a fee many aren't.

**Detroitnerd** · July-06-10, 09:56 AM

It's more about the perception of fees, especially across the city and suburbs. Plenty of suburban park users, esp. Metropark users, see fees as just a part of using a park system, or as a way to make money for the city. For many Detroiters, it is seen as an obstacle to casual use, or, worse still, a way to keep them off the island.

Several things I don't think we consider are ... What is the cost of administering a fee, backing up traffic on the MacArthur Bridge and charging money? Would the city still make money charging a nominal fee that wouldn't alienate Detroit residents? Would it only be for cars and not bicycles? Would revenues be dedicated to the park or just eaten up by the crooks running City Hall? Lots of questions. In fact, more questions than answers.

But, yeah, we've covered this one so completely in the past, there's probably about a good hour of reading already on DetroitYES!

**fryar** · July-06-10, 10:11 AM

I'm game. You could make it something marginal, like a $20 season pass or something with a little plaque that you stick on your windshield. That's how it's done in posh Greenwich, CT [[other than that, for sheer poshness, it's like $60 or $70 :-p ).
But yes, it does seem like a bunch of people would just erupt into complaints that this was yet another attempt to gentrify them out of Belle Isle.

**English** · July-06-10, 10:13 AM

This issue hasn't just been covered on DYes, it's been discussed in the city for as long as I can remember. Think I wrote an essay on this very issue as a schoolgirl in the 1980s as a class assignment.

**GOAT** · July-06-10, 10:32 AM

I am for a fee also. If people can afford to drive a car or buy a 40oz of booze, cooler of food they can afford $3.00 for a carload of people.

As for the loads of garbage...well you can't expect people who don't value life all that much to value a park or put garbage where it is supposed to go.

**GPCharles** · July-06-10, 10:56 AM

I am in favor of a fee, but only if it goes to an account dedicated to the maintenance of Belle Isle.

Bang the non-residents harder than the city residents too!

**EastsideAl** · July-06-10, 11:33 AM

This has been discussed to death here. I can see Bing pushing for it as part of his big threat to close all parks, but it is almost certainly a non-starter politically. I can't see any political will for charging residents and taxpayers to use a public park in the poorest major city in the country. Just plain won't happen.

Of course, people probably would have been charged a fee to enter the park if it had been turned into a Huron-Clinton Metropark, as has been suggested many many times [[we even voted for it in a referendum many years ago). The HCMA though has consistently turned that option down, stating that they don't 'do' urban parks. With that being the case, and at the risk of openng another can of worms that has been opened several times here, I've always been an advocate of taking the tax money that we Detroiters pay to the HCMA for parks 15 miles from our borders and repurposing it towards paying for the maintenance of our own major parks like Belle Isle.

**fryar** · July-06-10, 11:39 AM

Detroit is spending tax money on parks 15 miles north of Detroit? Oh good, so there is some regionalism in place to build on. :-p

**Searay215** · July-06-10, 11:59 AM

Yes charge a fee....Here is the fee structure for the Metro parks...and I might ad many a Detroiters come to the burbs to enjoy a clean safe place to have a picnik. There are no fees for walk ins or bike riders. Not to mention save the taxpayers $$$$$
Vehicle Entry Permit
Annual $25
Seniors [[62+) $15
Daily $5

**Detroitnerd** · July-06-10, 12:07 PM

It will probably cost millions to set up a gate, a way to turn cars back, security to deal with unrulies, etc.

**gnome** · July-06-10, 12:29 PM

By next spring the much hated Penske racing padock will be turned into a toll plaza. There will be no Jefferson Ave back-ups, the park will be cleaner and except for the grape-throwers, people will be happier.

**hamtown mike** · July-06-10, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by EastsideAl

This has been discussed to death here. I can see Bing pushing for it as part of his big threat to close all parks, but it is almost certainly a non-starter politically. I can't see any political will for charging residents and taxpayers to use a public park in the poorest major city in the country. Just plain won't happen.

The fee would not be charging residents and taxpayers to use the park. Pedestrians and bicyclists [[and handicapped vehicles) would be allowed to enter and use the park for free.

The fee would only be applied to automobiles. This is really a response to all the garbage. Where does that garbage come from? Coolers, picnic baskets etc-things that more than likely would be brought in by automobile.

**Detroitnerd** · July-06-10, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by gnome

By next spring the much hated Penske racing padock will be turned into a toll plaza. There will be no Jefferson Ave back-ups, the park will be cleaner and expect for the grape-throwers, people will be happier.

Please don't retain the location for the plaza. Just mill down all that concrete and reuse it nearer the bridge, but let's try not to take a bit out of the Scott Fountain area, as they did. It just looks like crap.

**Detroitnerd** · July-06-10, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by hamtown mike

The fee would not be charging residents and taxpayers to use the park. Pedestrians and bicyclists [[and handicapped vehicles) would be allowed to enter and use the park for free.

The fee would only be applied to automobiles. This is really a response to all the garbage. Where does that garbage come from? Coolers, picnic baskets etc-things that more than likely would be brought in by automobile.

Maybe if they had a shuttle bus from Gabriel Richard or something? It seems harsh to forbid people who don't want to cross the bridge on foot on a day like today.

**DanFromDetroit** · July-06-10, 12:56 PM

I brought the new wife up from home [[Raleigh) to see the city this weekend. After the Tigers game Sunday I foolishly took her on a tour of Belle Isle so she could see how pretty it was. Wow am I an idiot for driving her around on Sunday July 4th. At one point a girl carrying a baby and young boy in tow walked directly in front of my car forcing me to slam on the brakes near the beach adjacent to the DYC. Thankfully I was only going 15mph but even so nearly clipped her - the whole thing left my wife crying at the young mothers disregard for her child's safety. That and the music & traffic jams and garbage strewn about on the street and shoreline... just terrible. If charging a toll would keep the animals from ruining the island and assist in keeping in clean - I'm all for it. I would love for it to have turned into a metropark years ago, but of course the city would never allow it. I'm sad to see this gem ruined but those who have no regard for others. I'm a native suburbanite who would eat lunch on the island and run there when I lived back home. I love it and would gladly pay to see it protected.

**Jason** · July-06-10, 01:29 PM

I think it's definitely worth it.

There's already a roundabout type thing near the entrance, you'd just have to block off a few streets, make a few of them two way instead of one way, and then put an automatic gate after the roundabout.

$2 the gate opens and you drive your car through. It could be free on holidays and other occasions. Pedestrians are always free.

In one of the other threads, based on the number of visitors, it was figured you'd get a ton of money even with a small fee. Enough to pay for the installation of the gate, and enough to start paying for the park maintenance and improvements that are necessary to make it a worthwhile place to visit in the first place.

**EastsideAl** · July-06-10, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by hamtown mike

The fee would not be charging residents and taxpayers to use the park. Pedestrians and bicyclists [[and handicapped vehicles) would be allowed to enter and use the park for free.

The fee would only be applied to automobiles. This is really a response to all the garbage. Where does that garbage come from? Coolers, picnic baskets etc-things that more than likely would be brought in by automobile.

I'm confused. Are you saying that Detroit residents and taxpayers don't have automobiles?

Look, I'm sensitive to the concerns about garbage and over-use of the park. Very sensitive, in fact, as an eastsider and a regular visitor to the park for over 50 years. But what I'm talking about is political reality, and the political reality is that charging admission to Belle Isle is a non-starter. Particularly now during a huge recession. A major reason that Belle Isle is so heavily used is that Detroiters view it as a place where they can go and enjoy themselves and have fun without spending much, if any, money.

And this has always been true. My father, who grew up poor on the eastside during the Depression, has said more than once that he never would have been on a beach, or gone to an aquarium, or a conservatory in his childhood, if it had cost any money to do so.

**EastsideAl** · July-06-10, 02:34 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Maybe if they had a shuttle bus from Gabriel Richard or something? It seems harsh to forbid people who don't want to cross the bridge on foot on a day like today.

There was bus service on the island from 1909 to 2007. There was even a bus terminal at the head of the bridge that we in the Friends of BI tried to save. But the Belle Isle bus was always a poor stepchild of the bus system. It was always being cut back and on the verge of being discontinued, despite a number of people fighting for it, until it finally slipped away a couple of years ago.

Details can be found here: http://www.detroittransithistory.inf...BelleIsle.html

It seems to me that restoration of this bus service would be a minimum requirement for charging people to drive onto Belle Isle. It would certainly spur parking business in the surrounding neighborhood. Kind of like what happens on boat race day. But, like I said above, that ain't going to happen.

**mwilbert** · July-06-10, 05:33 PM

1) I'd be in favor of a fee, but I can understand people not wanting one.

2) There aren't enough trash cans. People could be [[a lot) neater, but my experience is that after a summer weekend the trash cans are largely full and there isn't any place to put trash, and in fact people pile that trash so high that it blows out.

I think this is a situation where the whole "broken windows" idea might be applicable. If the island is already a mess, people aren't as motivated to clean up after themselves. A fee that improved maintenance and cleanup might well improve behavior. I'd like to see crews visible and cleaning up on the weekend to make it clear that tidiness was part of the Belle Isle experience. [[I'm not sure that doesn't happen; I don't think it does based on the mess on Mondays, but I don't go on weekends as I prefer it when it is quieter.)

**Neilr** · July-06-10, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by mwilbert

1) I'd be in favor of a fee, but I can understand people not wanting one.

2) There aren't enough trash cans. People could be [[a lot) neater, but my experience is that after a summer weekend the trash cans are largely full and there isn't any place to put trash, and in fact people pile that trash so high that it blows out.

I think this is a situation where the whole "broken windows" idea might be applicable. If the island is already a mess, people aren't as motivated to clean up after themselves. A fee that improved maintenance and cleanup might well improve behavior. I'd like to see crews visible and cleaning up on the weekend to make it clear that tidiness was part of the Belle Isle experience. [[I'm not sure that doesn't happen; I don't think it does based on the mess on Mondays, but I don't go on weekends as I prefer it when it is quieter.)

In New York's Central Park there are plenty of trash containers: they're everywhere. And garbage trucks roll through the park all weekend emptying them.

A culture has developed in NYC to use the trash containers both on the streets and in the parks. Most intersections have at least 4 containers, one on each corner.

In Detroit's downtown there are way to few containers so if you're inclined to use one, you may end up having to carry your trash for a block or so.

**Hypestyles** · July-06-10, 08:45 PM

Re: a fee, inevitably you'd have folks carping that it's a plot to keep out black folks.. not that "everybody" who lives in detroit visits belle isle every day..

I actually agree with the comment about withdrawing tax money from the Huron-Clinton authority and using it for belle isle maintenance..

DetroitPole · July-06-10, 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Neilr

In New York's Central Park there are plenty of trash containers: they're everywhere. And garbage trucks roll through the park all weekend emptying them.

A culture has developed in NYC to use the trash containers both on the streets and in the parks. Most intersections have at least 4 containers, one on each corner.

In Detroit's downtown there are way to few containers so if you're inclined to use one, you may end up having to carry your trash for a block or so.

I think you very well may be on to something. You are right about the rare trash containers. Also, stupidly, they are placed at bus stops [[which, in many places, are just sticks with signs on them stuck in the mud) where people, understandably, turn them on their sides so they have a place to sit waiting for a bus for an hour+.

I lived near Scripps park for a few years and there were NO trash containers there for a long time. I don't care what kind of financial straits the city is in, there is no excuse for such neglect. Does the union require some specialized person to place and empty the trash cans or what? Or did somebody's cousin not show up for work ever?

That being said, I just threw away a water bottle that was literally in arms reach of a trash container a few hours ago. It was also outside a ubiquitous liquor store, so I doubt the offender was a dedicated environmentalist.

So much wrong. Where to begin?

**Novine** · July-06-10, 09:21 PM

How about making the park a priority for the parks and rec. system and putting an appropriate amount of money towards it? Detroit doesn't spend zero on parks. It seems like it some day. But if Belle Isle is the park that's getting the most use, logic would say it would be near the top of the funding list.

**detroitdoc** · July-06-10, 10:29 PM

I think charging a fee or a yearly pass that goes directly into a Belle Isle fund and can't be used anywhere else is a very good solution. As it is right now, on most weekends, the island is a mess. Garbage everywhere, people running into the streets, cars stopped where they shouldn't be, loud music, shouting obscenities and racial terms [[particularly at young women) and more pot smoking than this city needs.

I was at a public meeting with councilman Kenyatta last week and the same issue was brought up. Most city residents in the room were very loudly against a fee due to the "economy," "poor residents," etc. However, my feeling is that if you can spend thousands on spinners, you have money for pot and booze, and spend at least $20 driving around the island in your painted 86 Caprice, you can pay $5 to get on the island. It would fund cleanup, maintenance, and more police.

As it is now, the island is virtually unusable by families. The park was never meant to be a garbage dump, a bar, or a place to smoke. It was meant for city residents to relax and escape the heat.