Atheist Roll Call

[gibran]

Maxx accepting that you expression of our God is defined differently and more literally [[ it is evident in your lack of perception of my metaphors and analogies)...is where some may part ways...since Jesus my path I also know that he spoke in parables...and yes his kingdom has many houses could translate..many different peoples of the world view his heaven in many ways ,and many different ways of understanding is what people do at times to cognitively make sense of something they do not understand...and besides his description of many mansions would make more sense to the coginitive minds of the people of the time...hey If I am wrong and there is a place waiting for me as a follower...cool...it would take me back to my understanding as a kid..and I would be sitting at a table with my family anyway...either way Heaven is yet to be experienced.

Maxxx you also need to re-read the post my God is your God...but if you have a different understanding so be it.. people who are closed minded have problem with understandingother perspectives and can lead to wars and that is what sends people away from God in the first place...nothing magical about this..not a new age god...just a rational way of personal belief in the same God without the cooldaide of linear thinking...

so collective was in reference to a constructionist view of world...non including animals which we have stewardship over anywya...so we should practice nonextermination...or driving them to extinction is another way of saying we respect our dominion over them...

those who quote scriture without understanding the history and science of the time may lose the minds and hearts of those who want to beleive but see the "human dimensions" and the inconsistency in some of the text as a easy way out.

Hurting others with a twisted psychological use of the power and control of the scriture is worse than not using it's principles at all...an dphysical pain can subside with time ..butthe psychological harm that some from behind the pulpit can take a life time to earse...and that hurt we see today...Look at the West Wood Baptist folks outo fKansas are cuasing with their view of scriture...protesting soldiers deaths...saying GOD hates anyone....wrong wrong wrong....

so as a person of faith to antoher..please read my parables and metaphors with an open mind as I willtry to understand yours and those who don't beleive...for after all... all of us a God's Children whether or not you accept it or not..[[sorry my aethist friends)

[MizMotown]

The reason I do believe in a "supreme intelligence" is from what i've studied in the controversial parapsychology book A Course In Miracles for the past 10 years +. Again, I think "God" [[to put a label on it) is something that is personally experienced. I am not a believer in fundamentalist religion, it is way too narrow-minded for me.

My favorite Albert Einstein quote is "It is better to believe than disbelieve; in doing so, you bring everything to the realm of possiblity.

You may believe that you are responsible for what you do, but not for what you think. The truth is that you are responsible for what you think, because it is only at this level that you can exercise choice. What you do comes from what you think.
-A Course In Miracles

Your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it. -A Course In Miracles

Seek not to change the world, but choose to change your mind about the world. What you see reflects your thinking. And your thinking but reflects your choice of what you want to see. -A Course In Miracles

The ego seeks to divide and separate. Spirit seeks to unify and heal. -A Course In Miracles

Are you afraid to find a loss of self in finding God? -A Course In Miracles

[MizMotown]

Just to further expand, the "Jesus" in A Course In Miracles explains that God did not create this world, that WE [[the ego part of us) did as a place to hide from Him. A metaphysical twist on the bible version of the Prodigal Son. That God isn't about punishing us, he's just waiting for us to wake up and come home. We are basically here hiding out and punishing ourselves out of fear of a truly loving God. And that WE [[the ego part of us) also created the physical body to keep the illusion of separation. Among other things that this brilliantly written book emplains it just seems to make alot more sense to the more logical religious side of me. [[is that an oxymoron? lol)

[maxx]

Gibran: nd besides his description of many mansions would make more sense to the coginitive minds of the people of the time..

My point too. It's disingenuous to say that every part of the Bible is literally accurate when there are parts of it that obviously show anthropormorphic and cultural limitations. As in the part of the OT where the Hebrew soldiers are told to carry a shovel or trowel to clean up the offal lest YHWH step in it when he walked around their encampment.

Deut.23 Verses [13] And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:

[14] For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.

Maxxx you also need to re-read the post my God is your God.

In your post on the first page, you talked about the melding of energies after death so I get the idea that you are talking mainly about energy as the source of creation. Why call it a god at all?

[MizMotown]

And this is how wars get started... lol

Again, I believe that the God experience is a personal one that can effect whether or not a person chooses to believe. I wasn't raised with religion whatsoever but I hated with my catholic friends had to go to cathecism [[sp?) My family was Episcopal. I went to a few churches for midnight mass and/or wedding/funerals, and a couple of sunday schools. The events that lead me to having what I believe to be a highly spiritual experiences and choosing to basically follow the Unity Church were highly personal and came at a time where I would say I surrendered to endless possibilities.

[gibran]

my point is that we have limited understanding the concept of God other than traditional, new age or even personal explanations about God...therefore critics of a personal or universal God are quick to point out that a physical [[lets just say as we know it) maybe is easily dismissed...my point is random energy couldn't possibly made this much diversity in one shot...unless it was a larger plan... Do I dismiss our God as a physical presence...no.. do I dismiss an energy/ soul no...do I dismiss a personal one that collectively we agreed on as mizmotown states ...absolutely not.I do believe in a fluid understanding that is both personal and traditional...and i go to church regularly...for the social expression of faith as well as psychological meditation and a more personal connection...I try not to put down others beliefs ...nor do I believe in wholesale adherence to man made interpretation ...

As the story goes, God created man in his own image and he had to send his son or should I say make him MAN...to walk amongst us...so we really have to go on a construct that science can't really explain ...and so in our faith we have to accept at one level these possibilities...But as a thinking person we due tend to make it into a more personal experience...with the foundations our ancestors laid out...

your view is right for your research and understanding ....and I would be a hyporcrite to say you are wrong...but read into my assrtation that we all worship a God of love and it is the same...just with our construted understanding..and if you provide me a clearer understanding ..great ... i will research it too.

[MizMotown]

Maybe we are just a great big Sims game?

What is real? How do you define real? If you're talking about what you can hear, what you can smell, taste and feel, then real is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. -The Matrix

Neo, sooner or later you're going to realize, just as I did, that there's a difference between knowing the path and walking the path. -The Matrix

What if when you woke up, you didn't know the difference between the dream world, and the real world? -The Matrix

Free your mind. -The Matrix

[gibran]

Miz.. you could expand that into the Greek Orthodox version of heaven and hell..hell is not fire ...but the suffering of the abseence of a relationship with God..it is as if you are looking into a banquet room and see the splender..but are aggitated by not being able to get there yet...but one day you would.

[MizMotown]

This is one of those philosophical subjects that may or may not ever be answered. It's not even worth wasting air space arguing over... lol I think an open mind to anything and everything is the smartest choice. George Carlin said it best, "Question everything!" Gilbran you are are absolutely correct in saying we have limited understanding, pretty much about everything that going on in this world. We come from a place of perception and judgement of that perception. We have eyes but do not see!! Things that we think are beautiful like sunsets and shooting stars all have a violent energy churning underneath. This world is truly an insane asylum and we walk around judging things we have no business judging and acting like a bunch of mental patients in our own little fantasy worlds. lol

[MizMotown]

Yes Gilbran. ACIM basically states that there are only two emotions. Love and fear. All fear [[hate, envy, jealousy, etc...) stem from lack of love. That truly the only thing that is real is love and everything is merely an illusion of separation.

Heaven and hell are states of mind. We can choose heaven or hell every moment depending on our choice of coming from love or fear.

In a nutshell... lol

[MizMotown]

There are parts of the bible that I truly believe are beautiful, inspiring, and full of deep knowlege about what life is about. A supreme example is "Know Thyself." I don't think that many of us really do. Maybe know thyself is knowing God. When we look inward we tend to see an ugly lil' ego [[devil) filled with hatred, unforgiveness, judgement and guilt towards ourselves and our brothers. Told by ourselves and society that we are not good enough for anything, including God's love. Distracting ourselves with idols of every kind that will never bring us lasing peace or fulfullment. It's a place most of us don't want to go, but those of us who dare find some real surprising answers about who and what we really are.

[maxx]

MizMotown: ...the "Jesus" in A Course In Miracles explains that God did not create this world, that WE [[the ego part of us) did as a place to hide from Him... And that WE [[the ego part of us) also created the physical body to keep the illusion of separation.

You say you agree that we should question everything then you call this sort of stuff brilliant? It sounds like a piece of brilliant snake oil by Shucman. Yet another "prophet" with a private line to Jesus.

Things that we think are beautiful like sunsets and shooting stars all have a violent energy churning underneath.

So what? The energy from the sun provides us with the light and heat the earth requires for life. Science informs us of how long we can expect that to last. The violent energy of the other stars are too far away to affect us.

There are parts of the bible that I truly believe are beautiful, inspiring, and full of deep knowlege about what life is about. A supreme example is "Know Thyself."

Socrates is credited with "Know thyself", not the Bible.

ACIM basically states that there are only two emotions. Love and fear. All fear [[hate, envy, jealousy, etc...) stem from lack of love.

Shades of "Donny Darko". There are no greys only black and white, love and fear. And one's concerns about the world and the way it is going right now couldn't possibly have a real world basis. No, it is a lack of love. Puh-huh-leeze.

[maxx]

Gibran: we all worship a God of love

I don't sacrifice to any god of love or pray to one. I make choices that all people must make if they want to live peacefully with others. I don't understand why you use the vocabulary of theists in contexts that make no sense.
AS for church, I find being in a place where only one person is allowed to speak and everyone else listens in silence supposedly absorbing the "message" unquestioningly very unsettling like something out of 1984.

[gibran]

to each their own...

[terryh]

my point is that we have limited understanding the concept of God other than traditional, new age or even personal explanations about God...therefore critics of a personal or universal God are quick to point out that a physical [[lets just say as we know it) maybe is easily dismissed...my point is random energy couldn't possibly made this much diversity in one shot...unless it was a larger plan... Do I dismiss our God as a physical presence...no.. do I dismiss an energy/ soul no...do I dismiss a personal one that collectively we agreed on as mizmotown states ...absolutely not.I do believe in a fluid understanding that is both personal and traditional...and i go to church regularly...for the social expression of faith as well as psychological meditation and a more personal connection...I try not to put down others beliefs ...nor do I believe in wholesale adherence to man made interpretation ...

As the story goes, God created man in his own image and he had to send his son or should I say make him MAN...to walk amongst us...so we really have to go on a construct that science can't really explain ...and so in our faith we have to accept at one level these possibilities...But as a thinking person we due tend to make it into a more personal experience...with the foundations our ancestors laid out...

your view is right for your research and understanding ....and I would be a hyporcrite to say you are wrong...but read into my assrtation that we all worship a God of love and it is the same...just with our construted understanding..and if you provide me a clearer understanding ..great ... i will research it too.

You guys are getting real deep lol. First of all, and with all do respect to you also sir, may I ask you to explain to me,why would an 'intelligent designer' have to send a 'son' to make things right, why couldn't the being get it right the first time?

Also, we know from fosslized evidence that the human form has changed with our diet [[we know longer need large jaw bones with large canine teeth, as we cook our meat).

The mythology of virgin births is common to many cultures and religions, the Bhudda is one example-the tale was changed down the trade route?

[jt1]

I love how an 'atheists roll call' thread has devolved into people quoting the bible and stating their reasons to believe in their god.

Just goes to show how the 'believers' tend to use every opportunity to preach their faith, even to those that don't care to hear about their beliefs.

[terryh]

I disagree with Gibran that the religious all worship the "same god of love"....tell that to the Protestants and Catholics of Norther Ireland, or the militant Jewish settlers who think they have a 'god given' right [[when did god become a real estate agent)?to land. Tell the Sunni and Shia in Iraq that they all worship the same god of love as they blow one another, and most atrociously of all, innocent bystanders to smithereens.

Can you blame us for our remittant contempt and criticism of religion? Worship as you please, be a good human being and volunteer with disabled children and raise money for Cancer research, treatment and hospice. I dont have a problem with youre quest for spirtitual wholeness, goodness and peace, as long as you obey the law. When I attended my friends fathers memorial a member of his church arrogantly declared the war in Iraq was a war for christianity, the same person, at my friends mothers memorial sneered that "Ferndale has changed so much", in other words we dont tolerate religious intolerance and bigotry.You see, he is a member of the First Baptist Church that I believe I would be correct in saying was run out of Ferndale because the churches pastor happened to be the police chaplain and used the simplistic 'sin' term to describe homosexual behaviour.I met Pastor Hansen, shook his hand and informed him I accept my friend Mark unconditionally, regardless of his sexuality,the good 'pastor' a little taken aback replied with the condescending "god bless you"-in other words I KNOW A TRUTH YOU DONT-Instead of engaging you in discussion or debate, I will skirt around the issue by talking down on you...I dont need a god bless you..

Its the afforementioned behaviours and attitudes that irritate me..religious landlords who discriminate and deny housing based on marital status ; families that fight over religious conversion; religious people who disown family members for having children oustside of marriage[[ I knew a wonderful Chaldean woman who had three kids by a man who ended up drug addicted and absent from the childrens lives, her sister was the only family member who wasnt estranged-those children were well loved and respected without her judgemental Catholic family-prominent members of the community attended her kids b-day and graduation parties) do you see where Im coming from? Ranting and raving!

[gibran]

terry your points are well taken...it is when man tries to play whose God is better or my interpretation is better than yours is where we screw up...my preference should have been that the three monotheistic religions claim to worship the same God...but it is man's interpretation and insistence on division that has changed the rules ... and yes it is shameful that people of the cloth perpetuate hate and division and struggle with social justice...but I could say the same of my colleagues who as psychologists...who still say the "retard" statement at things that are feel are ridiculous... I have evolved my spirituality around a humble perspective..and I am sure many could use intelligent arguments against it...no worries it works as well for me as their's does for them.

[rb336]

and yes it is shameful that people of the cloth perpetuate hate and division and struggle with social justice.

shameful? I don't know about that. Organized religion is now, and always has been, an institution designed and built for controlling the populace

[Detroitej72]

Free your mind. -The Matrix

And your ass will follow.

[Detroitej72]

...it is when man tries to play whose God is better or my interpretation is better than yours is where we screw up...

I always tell people it's not God that is the problem, it's man's interpretation and distortion of his words that causes problems.

]...[/B] and yes it is shameful that people of the cloth perpetuate hate and division and struggle with social justice...but I could say the same of my colleagues who as psychologists ...

The folks who have agendas will always ignore that second sentence and make it sound as if only people of the cloth promote hate and injustice. Thanks again, Gibran for being DY's constant voice of reason.

[MizMotown]

Sorry Max on the misquote. I should have expanded that with my take on "the Kingdom of God" is within.

But again, as usual. YOU ARE RIGHT and every OTHER interpetation is WRONG. And THAT is why I don't discuss with closed-minded folks.

Have a blessed day!

[maxx]

Sorry Max on the misquote. I should have expanded that with my take on "the Kingdom of God" is within.

Which means what? You're already in heaven?

But again, as usual. YOU ARE RIGHT and every OTHER interpetation is WRONG. And THAT is why I don't discuss with closed-minded folks.

I'm closed minded because I immediately buy into the idea that Shucman got his/her ideas directly from Jesus? I thought you questioned everything. If The Course in Miracles is doing a rehashing of Norman Vincent Peale, they would be doing well.
My experience with someone who took the CiM goes like this. She said that while on vacation in Hawaii, she had wanted to take the bike ride down some mountain, but they were booke up. So she prayed for a miracle and lo! the next day there was an opening! I thought what a narcissistic interpretation of miracles. Of course, if you prayer for something really big like world peace or someone's cure from a deadly disease, you could be disappointed.

Have a blessed day! [/quote]

[MizMotown]

lol... i do question everything, even the Course. It even tells you too. And your two sentence explanation of miracles is waaaayyy off. lol. The book is over 1000 pages, it warrants a much deeper summary. According to ACIM "miracles" are corrections in our perceptions and the way we think. The miracle happens when a thought of fear is changed to a thought of love. Whether or not the books writing was guided by Jesus it is still a very unique take on the structure of our minds and thinking and what is wrong and right with it.

Have a nother' blessed day!

[maxx]

lol... i do question everything, even the Course. It even tells you too. And your two sentence explanation of miracles is waaaayyy off.

I didn't write an explanation of the Course. And the first sentence should have said that I don't buy into Shucman's claim.
The winnowing down of life decisions to two origins, love and fear, overlooks basic curiosity and logic. Shades of Donnie Darko!