Detroit Street Railways Map

[Hermod]

Actually there were two versions of the Gratiot Interurban, if you'd like to call it that, since neither ran all the way along Gratiot to Port Huron. The original line ran along Gratiot then followed roughly 23 Mile Road, M-29 and BL 94 to Port Huron. That was a very long trip, so a new line was developed that cut off part of the M-29 segment [[the new route bypassed Algonac and the St. Clair Flats). The new line was referred to as the Short Cut, and the route partly survives in that there is an east-west road in southern St. Clair County called Short Cut Road, which follows the route, and you can actually see a couple of the old interurban bridges over drains and creeks if you know where to look.

By the way, the map is a wonderful resource. We need to find a way to make this broadly available to local and national street railway historians. [[And urban planners.)

The "local" trains continued to serve Algonac and the other stops along the shore. The express trains used the "short cut" from Fair Haven to Marine City. Not sure if it has been "developed over" but the remains and footprint of the junction at Fair Haven Switch used to be quite apparent.

[stansloski]

I have had some free time the past couple of weeks because I've finished classes but have yet to start work, so I decided to spend some time mapping Detroit's streetcar lines on google maps. Anyways, I thought I'd post it here because it seems like a lot of you guys are big transit enthusiast.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...,0.617294&z=11

The map has all twenty major lines from the start of WWII. However, it is not perfect because its hard to tell exactly where the private right-of-ways are located.

Thanks for your help with this map. I am actually more interested in the lines that existed in the early 1900s. My grandparents evidently met on a streetcar where he was a conductor and she was a passenger. She apparently lived in Shelby Charter Township and road the street car into Detroit to work for the telephone company. Can you give me any help?

thanks
don

[Meddle]

^^ You do realize this thread was started 8 1/2 YEARs ago, right? OP's last post was 8 full years ago also.

[Ray1936]

^^ You do realize this thread was started 8 1/2 YEARs ago, right? OP's last post was 8 full years ago also.

"Old Threads Never Die". With apologies to General Douglas MacArthur.

[EastsideAl]

Also, if your mother was riding a streetcar from Shelby Township to Detroit to work, it was almost certainly one of the interurban cars described by Hermod in post #16 on this thread [[most likely the Almont/Imlay City line), and not one of the city streetcar lines shown on the map posted by the OP.

Here is a zoomable map of the interurban lines from 1915:
https://detroitography.files.wordpre...urban_1280.jpg

[stansloski]

Yeah, but I was hoping...

And look later on! My hopes were fulfilled!


thanks
don

[stansloski]

The post may have been 8 years old. The family story got it wrong. But, Look! You solved my problem anyway! My grandparents must have met on the interurban. They may have been wed in Farmington and the interurban fits that better too, I think.

This morning I knew very little about all of this. Thanks for your help in educating me.

don

[expatriate]

There are two intact Detroit streetcars on private property on Gratiot just north of Rattle Run road which are quite visible from the road. Does anyone know anything about them?

[expatriate]

I took this photo several years ago, but these cars are still there. They are on Gratiot about 1/2 mile north of Rattle Run next to a house on the west side of the street.

I have since discovered that this 4601 car came from Toronto. Wish I knew how it got to a field in the Michigan farm lands.

[Henry Whalley]

I remember going downtown with my father on a streetcar when I eight years old circa 1958. He showed me some monuments. Mostly I liked the pigeons. We went to see 'The 7th Voyage of Sinbad' and the monsters scared the crap out of me. I think the route went down Joseph Campau, Chene, and somehow to Cadillac Square. One neighbor in Hamtramck was an elderly dignified Pole who we called 'The Conductor' because he operated the streetcar. I imagine it was a decent job except that the cars must have been hot in summer and cold in winter. Hence, the eternal poem by Little Joe Gould: In summer I'm a nudist, And in winter I'm a Buddhist. In summer, The Conductor wore a seersucker suit and straw boater hat.

[expatriate]

I remember going downtown with my father on a streetcar when I eight years old circa 1958. He showed me some monuments. Mostly I liked the pigeons. We went to see 'The 7th Voyage of Sinbad' and the monsters scared the crap out of me. I think the route went down Joseph Campau, Chene, and somehow to Cadillac Square. One neighbor in Hamtramck was an elderly dignified Pole who we called 'The Conductor' because he operated the streetcar. I imagine it was a decent job except that the cars must have been hot in summer and cold in winter. Hence, the eternal poem by Little Joe Gould: In summer I'm a nudist, And in winter I'm a Buddhist. In summer, The Conductor wore a seersucker suit and straw boater hat.

Well, I'm not one to criticize because my memories are a bit fuzzy about these long ago events also, but The 7th Voyage of Sinbad was released in 1958 and the last streetcar line ended in 1956.

[Henry Whalley]

Well, I'm not one to criticize because my memories are a bit fuzzy about these long ago events also, but The 7th Voyage of Sinbad was released in 1958 and the last streetcar line ended in 1956.

Oops, it may have been an earlier trip to see different movie circa 1955-56. Memories are fuzzy indeed. It was on a streetcar ride downtown with my father that I met my first African American adult whose seat was a little behind us, and as I recollect, it was the first time I asked him about skin color. My dad told me that, just like flowers, God made people of all different colors to make the world more beautiful... Imagine how dull the world would be if all flowers were one color. My very first kindergarten friend was a black boy was named George Washington -- I remember being impressed by his name, not his skin color.

P.S. My dad probably wanted for us to experience a streetcar ride together before they disappeared.

[5939DT]

Oops, it may have been an earlier trip to see different movie circa 1955-56.

Could it have been "Carousel" at the Fox?



Note how it is a matinee and everyone waiting to get in is dressed up.

[expatriate]

Your dad sounds like a cool guy. Certainly more enlightened than my own.

[factoryrat]

My dad had a machine shop on 4th street in Royal Oak. It was a big building, and inside it had tracks on the floor. I asked what they were all about, he told me that they used to do maintenance on the street cars there. He also mentioned that years ago there were street cars that ran up Stephenson hwy. [[was Oakland, and then later I-75) cut across on 4th street then on to Woodward ave.

[MikeM]

My dad had a machine shop on 4th street in Royal Oak. It was a big building, and inside it had tracks on the floor. I asked what they were all about, he told me that they used to do maintenance on the street cars there. He also mentioned that years ago there were street cars that ran up Stephenson hwy. [[was Oakland, and then later I-75) cut across on 4th street then on to Woodward ave.

From Woodward east along 6 Mile to Oakland, then north on Oakland to between 9 & 10 Mile where it joined Stephenson up to 4th, west through town to Washington. There was a line going up Main from 4th up to Flint, with a spur to Imlay City.

[Canadian Visitor]

I took this photo several years ago, but these cars are still there. They are on Gratiot about 1/2 mile north of Rattle Run next to a house on the west side of the street.

I have since discovered that this 4601 car came from Toronto. Wish I knew how it got to a field in the Michigan farm lands.

I can fill in a few details.........

First, this PCC Car started its life in Cincinnati circa 1947; which sold it to the Toronto Transit Commission, or TTC, as an operating vehicle, along w/the much/all of the rest of their fleet in 1950

The TTC then got several decades of life out of it, before giving it a major rebuild in 1987, and actually changing over to modern livery.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/19908866@N03/49231040596

The TTC would later repaint it in its classic colour scheme.

TTC retired the last of these from active service in December of 1995.

From there, it appears to have been sold to the Michigan Transit Museum, in 1996.

Data from here:

https://transphoto.org/vehicle/451187/?&lang=en

Additional history here:

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Toro...sion_4550-4574

[5939DT]

I have since discovered that this 4601 car came from Toronto. Wish I knew how it got to a field in the Michigan farm lands.

Michigan Transit Museum volunteer [https://www.michigantransitmuseum.org, also on Facebook] here, come out to Joy Park in Mt. Clemens on Sundays to ride our train. Last two Sundays in October are Trick Or Treat Train, bring the kids in their costumes, much fun for all.

Those two streetcars were formerly on the Selfridge base grounds, where the rest of MTM's collection was stored. After September 2001, Selfridge turned the security screws tighter and tighter until we were ejected totally about 2008 or so. The property where the cars are stored is that of one of our members.

I've read the Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toront..._rolling_stock and it does say that cars 4575-4601 came from Cincinnati but I'm doubtful of that -- those cars 4575-4601 were the older 1939-1940 PCC design. I'm thinking this one was part of the A15 class of cars built in 1951 by Canadian Car and Foundry.

[Canadian Visitor]

Michigan Transit Museum volunteer [https://www.michigantransitmuseum.org, also on Facebook] here, come out to Joy Park in Mt. Clemens on Sundays to ride our train. Last two Sundays in October are Trick Or Treat Train, bring the kids in their costumes, much fun for all.

Those two streetcars were formerly on the Selfridge base grounds, where the rest of MTM's collection was stored. After September 2001, Selfridge turned the security screws tighter and tighter until we were ejected totally about 2008 or so. The property where the cars are stored is that of one of our members.

I've read the Wiki page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toront..._rolling_stock and it does say that cars 4575-4601 came from Cincinnati but I'm doubtful of that -- those cars 4575-4601 were the older 1939-1940 PCC design. I'm thinking this one was part of the A15 class of cars built in 1951 by Canadian Car and Foundry.

Excellent contribution!

**

While I'm knowledgeable about Toronto transit vehicles in a general sense, I'm not one of those really dedicated to it, and can only provide the sources I cannot comment with any personal expertise.

[expatriate]

I can fill in a few details.........

First, this PCC Car started its life in Cincinnati circa 1947; which sold it to the Toronto Transit Commission, or TTC, as an operating vehicle, along w/the much/all of the rest of their fleet in 1950

The TTC then got several decades of life out of it, before giving it a major rebuild in 1987, and actually changing over to modern livery.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/19908866@N03/49231040596

The TTC would later repaint it in its classic colour scheme.

TTC retired the last of these from active service in December of 1995.

From there, it appears to have been sold to the Michigan Transit Museum, in 1996.

Data from here:

https://transphoto.org/vehicle/451187/?&lang=en

Additional history here:

https://cptdb.ca/wiki/index.php/Toro...sion_4550-4574

Thanks for posting these fascinating links. I knew some of you out there would know more about this. This has been an amazing resource for discovering the answers to many Detroit history questions.

[Canadian Visitor]

Thanks for posting these fascinating links. I knew some of you out there would know more about this. This has been an amazing resource for discovering the answers to many Detroit history questions.

You're quite welcome!

[Sandhouse]

I had wondered where MTM's Detroit PCC had got to, since it wasn't on the Selfridge spur. Now I know. Some background from my fuzzy memory:

Some [[all?) of Detroit's PCC cars were sold to Mexico City after abandonment of the lines in 1956. A Michigan traction fan [[George Cutler?) promoted the donation of one back to Michigan by the Mexican authorities in the 1980s. Shortly thereafter, many of the remaining cars were crushed in the collapse of a carbarn in an earthquake, and the rest withdrawn and scrapped.

The PCC car is the last Michigan streetcar left in this state. Two Detroit Peter Witt cars survive, but are in museums in Illinois and Ohio [[or moved to Maine?). Interurban carbodies survive in museums in Coopersville and Grass Lake. The Detroit PCC car is a significant piece of history. Its body was modified to a 3-door pattern in Mexico. Perhaps someday it can be restored to its DSR configuration and housed as an exhibit. Or given a load of batteries and run on the Q Line . . .

[5939DT]

^^

Outside storage has not been good for those cars. They get washed periodically to keep dirt from trapping moisture, but still, lots of rust and other deterioration. They really need indoor storage, not necessarily heated, but at least out of the weather - water always wins.

Correct on the DSR Witts. IRM https://www.irm.org/cgi-bin/rsearch....t+Railway=3865 in Union IL has the 3865, and 3876 is now at Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine [https://www.detroityes.com/mb/showth...r-Up-for-Sale].

Anyway, just want to remind everyone with kids or grandkids that Sundays October 23 and 30 are "Trick or Treat Train", come in costume, Halloween candy for kids of all ages. Check https://www.michigantransitmuseum.org for details, and a link there to prepurchase tickets, or just show up for space available. Trips are at 12:00 - 5:00 on the hour those days. Also visit our historic Grand Trunk RR depot on Cass Ave. in Mt. Clemens. Note that the train is at Joy Park east of Gratiot on Joy Blvd, not the depot!