Cheap Cina labor flexing muscles?

[jams]

Just a blurb, but worth watching.

y 28, 2010 - 6:43am Multinationals are watching warily as strikes in China force Honda [[HMC) to shut its plants there until they're resolved, the New York Times reports. The paper says it's only the latest sign of labor unrest, as workers’ expectations outstrip wage increases. The country has become a major link in the global supply chain, with its low production costs and reliable lack of strikes, but times are changing. Labor shortages mean workers can demand more money and a better workplace, and they’re willing to strike to get it. There’s also no good alternative supplier for multinationals. India’s ports and highways can’t handle high volumes of material, for example, and other possible locations lack the infrastructure and population. A Honda spokesperson says negotiations are ongoing and “It’s not over yet.�


http://www.thebigmoney.com/features/...e-money-pronto

[Stosh]

Looks as if the runaways may soon be coming home?

[oldredfordette]

Solidarity! It does't matter what country, sooner or later a worker will realize that they are not a machine or a number. Yeah.

[Bigb23]

OMG Gary Colmen is dead !

Why worry about a third world debt problem?

[Sstashmoo]

Pretty much a non-issue as far as we're concerned. If they doubled the income of a Chinese worker, it would still be in stark contrast to our labor rates. Of course all the crap on the shelves at Wal-mart et al, will go up a few pennies as a result.

As long as our Government condones and even coerces companies to outsource with our ridiculous trade policies, China trade is going to be a problem for us. Another failure of the Obama administration. Promised to address this issue, he did, made it worse by "strengthening" the relationship. And adding or trying to add more Asian countries in to the mix.

[Gannon]

Sstash,

I'll remind you that you said that shallow comment when it all comes undone next year.

The non-issue, as YOU incorrectly call it, is that ANY disruption in delivery of product due to strikes sends increasing ripples throughout the economy of any and all nations doing business with them.

You are looking merely at static numbers, which is a traditional problem of academics and economists and policy wonks who have the incorrect assumption that their metrics directly relate with what they are supposed to be describing, counting, and analyzing.


The raw difference in labor rate at any static sample instant is NOT what will screw us up...it is the halting of the DYNAMIC flow of goods in return for money that can really screw up things on OUR end of the equation.


Imagine...Apple introduces the 4g iPhone...after months of anticipation. Some are waiting for a chance to get off the AT&T tyranny, others want the increased processing power and multi-tasking...WHATEVER, there is pent-up demand for a product not yet released.

Their competitor doesn't suffer the same setback in production due some labor unrest, one cheered mightily on worldwide by those like Oldredforedette and myself who recognize the value of individuals well beyond their production capability for some multi-national corporation.

Apple could turn from being the darling of Wall Street, having recently surpassed MICROSOFT in market capitalization, to being literally dead in the water with nothing to sell until they can ramp up production in some [[hopefully) more stable source for infinitesimally low labor and material costs and non-existent environmental regulations.

Their competitor would take advantage of every setback...I could imagine corporate shills even inciting riots in certain areas where their competitor is busy making product! There have been whisleblowers who've proven that sort of strategizing happens. I think one good documentary was the Confessions of a Corporate Hitman, or something like that.


Capitalism REQUIRES all this bottom line stuff, including raping the Earth of raw materials for next-to-no cost...or it will suffocate and wither and die. It is NOT the marvelous maker of wealth we know it as for nothing, it needs the Marines and other Military to survive and succeed. It requires war and destruction.

And that is only about the manufacturers, imagine a store selling consumer electronics...not having inventory to move. What do they do to pay their bills?! Then it cascades downwards in the same direction it has been going for years...insurance companies have less income, governments have lower tax revenue, commercial real estate plummets [[causing the underpinnings of both the insurance and banking house-of-cards to dissolve even further to nothing, and we know how structures without foundations fare, don't we?!), utilities grind down to a halt...things then start to REALLY break down, and we STILL don't have our new iPhones.



The whole system costs the Earth and everyone who lives on and in it. We may learn the true depths soon, and NOT just in the Gulf of Mexico, either! But that may indeed be the easiest example, we'll feel it when gas goes over $5 per gallon this winter.

Maybe then people will pay attention, but I doubt it. Most will just get mad at the owner of the gas station...and anyone the cable news outlets aim their vitriol against.


Now, imagine an admittedly Communist government holding the keys to nearly all the labor available for the entire planet, able to take Capitalism hostage in an instant by withholding labor by LETTING these strikes happen...or better yet, directing the output to their secondary market [[which is WAY larger and more populated than the US). They could simply tell the rude round-eyes to go fuck themselves, and we would HAVE to...just after we nuked them into the ether and fucked the entire world, too.

It would NOT be easy or quick to ramp up production on our shores, we would probably not survive the dearth of consumer and lifestyle products in the six to 12 months it would take [[optimistically) to get manufacturing back on our shores. Outsourcing overseas was a very bad idea, it always has been wrong...but we let greedy bastards convince us otherwise, by bribing us with Lower Prices Everyday! [[nobody noticed the landfills becoming mountains?!)


Sincerely,
John

[Gannon]

Pretty much a non-issue as far as we're concerned. If they doubled the income of a Chinese worker, it would still be in stark contrast to our labor rates. Of course all the crap on the shelves at Wal-mart et al, will go up a few pennies as a result.

As long as our Government condones and even coerces companies to outsource with our ridiculous trade policies, China trade is going to be a problem for us. Another failure of the Obama administration. Promised to address this issue, he did, made it worse by "strengthening" the relationship. And adding or trying to add more Asian countries in to the mix.

And THAT is idiotic. We've been COURTING China ever since Nixon took his famous trip there to watch ping-pong. Not one president has been opposed to this, as far as I know. Not even Carter, the best and smartest president we've had in my lifetime [[gotta keep plugging that against the popular lie to the contrary)!

You pointing out the current president is such total bullshit...you play right along with their divide-and-conquer insanity. Must feel good to cheerlead the destruction of our nation and world...



Cheers,
John

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "The non-issue, as YOU incorrectly call it, is that ANY disruption in delivery of product due to strikes sends increasing ripples throughout the economy of any and all nations doing business with them."

Good, these Morons that have been walking in to the Toyota and Honda dealers for the last 30 years can finally feel the effects of their flippancy.

Quote: "Apple could turn from being the darling of Wall Street, having recently surpassed MICROSOFT in market capitalization, to being literally dead in the water with nothing to sell"

Good, you sure are pro-corporate industry all of a sudden. We can build those devices here. Fuck Apple. These are the same bunch of bastards that broke their asses setting up production elsewhere to sell goods here, denying countless thousands jobs here. Think I give a fuck about their I-shit?

Quote: "Their competitor would take advantage of every setback..."

Yes, American companies would, that's how a free market works.

Quote: " imagine a store selling consumer electronics...not having inventory to move."

So. All of these retailers in this country steering the China Shitpipe in to our heartland knows it's just a matter of time before the ball drops. They know it's coming, as long as they are exploiting Chinese workers and reaping insane profits, and our Government allows both, they are going to ride it out. As far as I'm concerned they are just another reason our economy is like it is, and where it is headed. Nothing lasts forever. F em'

Quote: "Then it cascades downwards in the same direction it has been going for years...insurance companies have less income, governments have lower tax revenue, commercial real estate plummets [[causing the underpinnings of both the insurance and banking house-of-cards to dissolve even further to nothing, and we know how structures without foundations fare, don't we?!), utilities grind down to a halt...things then start to REALLY break down, and we STILL don't have our new iPhones."

What do you think has been happening?

Quote: "we would probably not survive the dearth of consumer and lifestyle products in the six to 12 months it would take [[optimistically) to get manufacturing back on our shores."

Where do you think we'll be at in a year anyway. Yeah, that's where it is. We're screwed either way. There is a way to steer ourselves out of this. It's going to be rough medicine. And handing everyone a paycheck for nothing, is not going to fix it. We have to repay that 12 Trillion some day, got your $80k or whatever they say it is, to hand over?

Quote: "And THAT is idiotic. We've been COURTING China ever since Nixon took his famous trip there to watch ping-pong."

And candy bars used to be ten cents?? It matters not what a previous administration did, it matters who is in there now, the guy that promised to address it, one of the factors that got him elected, he's done nothing. You can keep making excuses for him all you want, he's on the road to being one of the worst Presidents we've ever had. What's this? Three in a row now?

The great Chris Mathews once quoted someone saying "Our Republic is strong enough to withstand 8 years of anything". We're going on 20 years of special interest led Government. Like the results?

[Gannon]

I like that it is waking SOME people up to the reality that they can take matters of food production and other things back into their own hands!

Where do you get that I'm PRO corporate? I was merely making an example.


I also do NOT defend the current president, he was groomed over twenty-five years for this post by the CIA alone. He is as bad as the last guy, but when I hear comments like yours that conveniently ignore that fact...I see how they foment division and hatred, and will step up and say my piece every time.


YOU are so stuck in the current meme that you could ONLY react reflexively and immediately think INCORRECTLY that I'm defending him, when I'm not doing anything of the sort.


Corporate Capitalism is failed, and will likely bring the world down with it.

The current president is as complicit with this destruction as the last three, and probably the last seven...only perhaps minus Carter, who I'm sure was shown the official films of the whole JFK assassination. He went gray shortly after ONE meeting before he had set up his damn cabinet, it seemed. I'll have to check those old photos! I just remember the published quotes from those he spoke with afterward...when he admitted he didn't have the power to name his own cabinet members and advisors! [[this proves there is a shadow government beyond what we THINK we elect by popular demand, I believe our constitutional government has been gone for at least a generation or two! We are participating in the illusion of a representative democracy, they are merely more blatant about it recently!)


Cheers, I think we agree on all of this WAY more than we disagree on any minor approach to it all. And we BOTH see where this freight-train is headed...

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I think we agree on all of this WAY more than we disagree on any minor approach to it all."

Agreed.

Quote: "this proves there is a shadow government"

As you say.. Indeed.

[maxx]

Pretty much a non-issue as far as we're concerned. If they doubled the income of a Chinese worker, it would still be in stark contrast to our labor rates. Of course all the crap on the shelves at Wal-mart et al, will go up a few pennies as a result.

As long as our Government condones and even coerces companies to outsource with our ridiculous trade policies, China trade is going to be a problem for us. Another failure of the Obama administration.

So soon he's a failure and only a little over a year in office.

Promised to address this issue, he did, made it worse by "strengthening" the relationship. And adding or trying to add more Asian countries in to the mix.

AS though we have much of a negotiating position with China given all the U.S. debt they own.

[maxx]

Gannon:
Very nice explanation of the consumer economy. And let's not forget the African laborers who also contribute to affordable cell phones.

http://greenhomeauthority.com/the-gl...ics-and-games/
"...Now according to Wikipedia, the US Geological Survey reported in 2006 that the Democratic Republic of the Congo [[DRC) produces a little less than 1% of the world's coltan. While the Rwandan occupation in the DRC prevented the DRC from exploiting coltan for its own benefit, it did not prevent illegal mining and smuggling of coltan by militias from Uganda, Burundi, and Rwanda.
An activist group called Towards Freedom [[www.towardsfreedom.com) claims that coltan smuggling funds the income of the military occupation of the Congo. They state that the demand for coltan has caused military groups and western mining companies to seek hundreds of millions of dollars worth of coltan, often by forcing prisoners-of-war and children to work in the DRC coltan mines...


Currently, industry experts estimate that most of coltan from the DRC is being exported to China where it is processed into electronic-grade tantalum powder and wires. It is estimated that 64% to 80% of the of the world's coltan reserves can be found in the Congo."

[Sstashmoo]

Quote:: "AS though we have much of a negotiating position with China"

I want you to really think about this statement. We have no power in which to negotiate with China. I know you're just parroting the last news person or politician, but this such a defeated, defeatist, apologetic attitude. And quite frankly will be our demise.

[maxx]

Quote:: "AS though we have much of a negotiating position with China"

I want you to really think about this statement. We have no power in which to negotiate with China. I know you're just parroting the last news person or politician, but this such a defeated, defeatist, apologetic attitude. And quite frankly will be our demise.

And why do you suppose we have any room to negotiate? How are we going to threaten them? Or are we going to offer more of our manufacturing jobs? Are there any manufacturing jobs aside from the car industry to offer? All you're doing is making noise.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "All you're doing is making noise."

Common sense is lost on some.

Look, The last thing China wants is our economy to collapse, we are their cash cow. If our dollar collapses they know it would trigger a worldwide financial catastrophe. We have bargaining power with China. It would be to their advantage to hold their US securities even if we totally eliminated trade with them, think of what they would be worth right now, reference the recent euro hiccup. If we controlled our trade and began to rebuild our economy those securities would be an even better investment. The corporate special interests are keeping that lie alive that we have no bargaining power. They like things just how they are. As they suck this country dry and put our grandkids in bondage to them. And folks like yourself are their biggest ally. Parroting their BS.

[maxx]

Quote: "All you're doing is making noise."

Common sense is lost on some.

Look, The last thing China wants is our economy to collapse, we are their cash cow. If our dollar collapses they know it would trigger a worldwide financial catastrophe. We have bargaining power with China. It would be to their advantage to hold their US securities even if we totally eliminated trade with them, think of what they would be worth right now, reference the recent euro hiccup. The corporate special interests are keeping that lie alive that we have no bargaining power. They like things just how they are. As they suck this country dry and put our grandkids in bondage to them. And folks like yourself are their biggest ally. Parroting their BS.

SO you're saying we should threaten to slit our own throats? That would show them.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "SO you're saying we should threaten to slit our own throats?"

Not sure how you extrapolated that..... anyway. What I'm saying is, there is a path out of this. We have negotiating power, we do not have to remain in this death spiral forever. Think about it, they have no alternative but to negotiate with us. What is in it for them if they don't? The fear is they will sell their US holdings and crash our dollar. They aren't going to do that.

[Patrick]

How are we going to threaten them?

We can stop buying their cheap shit and start buying it from other nations such as Vietnam and in elsewhere? Surely that would do some damage to out Chinese overlords.

[Corn.Bot]

We can stop buying their cheap shit and start buying it from other nations such as Vietnam and in elsewhere? Surely that would do some damage to out Chinese overlords.

You find me a pair of shoes not made in China for a price I can afford based on my wages [[which are <200% of poverty level). I'll happily purchase for either gender, but especially size 12 athletic-style for my growing teenage boy. Point me to the retailer.

[East Detroit]

You find me a pair of shoes not made in China for a price I can afford based on my wages [[which are <200% of poverty level). I'll happily purchase for either gender, but especially size 12 athletic-style for my growing teenage boy. Point me to the retailer.

Interesting argument.

I could link you to the New Balance Made in the USA shoes that I wear, but you're likely going to say that they cost too much.

The bigger question is whether or not we can all afford to keep seeking the bottom of the barrel. We pay less, we get paid less, we need to pay less, we're forced to get paid less... etc.

[Corn.Bot]

Interesting argument.

I could link you to the New Balance Made in the USA shoes that I wear, but you're likely going to say that they cost too much.

The bigger question is whether or not we can all afford to keep seeking the bottom of the barrel. We pay less, we get paid less, we need to pay less, we're forced to get paid less... etc.

You are right: New Balance shoes cost too much. Well, to keep my kid in shoes, they do, as I don't guess they'd last any longer than $20 Mossimo skate shoes from Target. Not only is he still growing, he's tough on footwear.

However, I am much kinder to shoes and haven't changed sizes in decades. I might have to take a look for myself.

The bottom dropped out of my lifestyle early in the new millennium. Our income dropped drastically and has not recovered; so since then, my family's needs continue to bump hard against principles. I gauge everything by price first and quality next, and it's a bonus when something we need happens to be made in the U.S.A. I wish it happened more often [[for the record, I rarely shop at Walmart).

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "The bigger question is whether or not we can all afford to keep seeking the bottom of the barrel. We pay less, we get paid less, we need to pay less, we're forced to get paid less... etc."

Ahh someone that understands how it works..

[Gannon]

I understand it fully.

The ASSUMED underpinning of Capitalism is GROWTH.


If it doesn't grow, it stagnates and dies.


Early on, it grows into certain friendly markets.

Once saturated, which NOBODY talks about, you either struggle and war [[to forcibly expand either your market or get cheaper labor and raw materials...or both, I guess) or go the service route, which plays out in the equation so simply and clearly spelled out in East Detroit's post.

Lower Prices Everyday MUST mean lower-quality employees, too, and/or lowered amounts of employee education and training...leading to the current huge problem with any difficult sale product, like computers...video...hifi...and other technology.

Add to that...the big-box warehouse policy [[that is probably rescinded now) of a full no-questions-asked ONE YEAR return policy...and there is a time bomb in the system.

They are strung so thin...stretched at every juncture...especially with the insertion of the banking industry at every level of the manufacturer to consumer chain. I said many years ago here that this would be an issue, because it was only sustainable with excessive and unsustainable growth. [[Trying to find that article on the pervasive use of credit at every step...oh well...in due time.)


Same with the excesses of Corporate Capitalism...frivolous lawsuits [[well beyond reasonable consumer and employee protection), over-regulation [[again, well beyond reasonable industry and monopoly and residential governmental control and/or oversight), and even the fat-cat unions [[well beyond their original mandate, they got as bad or worse than their old Management enemies, or simply became the same...unions are necessary, but only if they serve the workers and NOT an internal management winking and nodding at the Corporate Overlords to keep themselves ensconced in positions of power and control).



It all ONLY works if there is growth and expansion...once that ends, it withers and dies. That is why you see all those companies introducing non-sensical products, they HAVE to broaden away from their core products in order to GROW their marketshare, once saturation has occurred.

That's why we have a dozen flavors of Oreo now...heh.

The problem is the economic SYSTEM that has been allowed to go corporate and unchecked...and fully backed by our military might.

Cheers

[Papasito]

ONOZ problems in China just means companies move from there to ... Mexico? or some other 3rd world country that doesnt have massive taxes and environmental compliance gestapo like the US and Europe, who are in an economic tailspin

[East Detroit]

I understand it fully.

The ASSUMED underpinning of Capitalism is GROWTH.


If it doesn't grow, it stagnates and dies.

That's the Wall Street version. Continual growth for every company, which is ridiculous in its lack of logic and math.

Why not have capitalism where a company makes enough profit to reinvest in itself, pay all bills and all employees? Wall Street HATES a company that successfully breaks even year after year. There is nothing for them to skim off the top. Better off not taking your company public.