The smartest thing Ms. Conyers said

**R8RBOB** · April-23-09, 09:59 AM

In the Free Press there is an article about this morning Pancakes and Politics breakfast and something that Ms. Conyers said got me thinking.

"Conyers also said she believes abandoned buildings in the city should be converted to outlet stores and that term limits should be instituted for the Detroit City Council, mayor and school board."

I'm focused on the term limits though abandoned buildings is a serious concern for the city.

Should Detroit go to term limits for the mayor, city council and school board as Conyers had suggested?

I was never a supported of tem limits but after seeing the actions of politicians in Washington and here in Detroit, I am convinced that we have too many career politicians. What do you think?

Here is the link to the story.....http://www.freep.com/article/2009042...ical+breakfast

**raptor56** · April-23-09, 10:05 AM

There should have been term limits during the CAY days. Detroit would be a different place right now.

Retroit · April-23-09, 10:05 AM

It seems to be the only check we have on "name-recognition" voters.

Kind of sad that we have to protect ourselves from our own stupidity.

**digitalvision** · April-23-09, 10:16 AM

I am firmly against term limits. They create way more problems than they solve, because politics is all about relationships.

If you don't have years to build up these relationships, you always get a bunch of idealogues. Not that Detroit doesn't have them now, but frankly, it's sorta insulting to democracy to impose such limits.

If we want a council person, we should keep them as long as we want. Even if it's her.

Now, the other idea about the buildings, I think she's AOK on. I'm still pissed that government agencies are holding onto retail spaces and not actively filling them with something. Empty is bad.

**Big Dog** · April-23-09, 10:31 AM

The downside of term limits for any office is this: What if someone was elected that was absolutely fantastic, in their elected position, only to be removed by term limits and replaced with someone not even near qualified. More persons seek office that are not as qualified as some. When you get a good one, you want to keep that person.

**cloud_wall** · April-23-09, 10:37 AM

Supporters of term limits should spend some time in Lansing observing the Legislature. Part of the problem there is that they are such ridiculously short term limits - reps haven't learned their way around town by the time they're term limited. But in any form, they create a lot of havoc. And corruption and complacency are going to occur no matter what if we elect the wrong people.

**daddeeo** · April-23-09, 10:55 AM

Voters can get rid of a politician by voting him out of office. Term limits is a poor excuse for voters not doing their jobs.
I doubt there are enough outlet places for all the abandoned buildings in Detroit. After city codes, licenses, etc who could afford to do that?
I think both ideas aren't well thought out.

**R8RBOB** · April-23-09, 11:00 AM

Damn if you do, damn if you don't.

On the one hand, you have inexperienced politicians attempted to enact policy on the fly and on the other hand you have career politicians who really serve no one interests because they become a known name who will keep getting reelected over and over again.

For those who opposes term limits, think of a politician like a sports team. A sports team have only so many years before they have to replace the parts to stay competitive. A politician can only have so many years of fresh ideas before they go stale. My choice: I prefer fresh bread compared to moldy green bread.

**DetroitPlanner** · April-23-09, 11:33 AM

Term limits were a bust in state legislature. Too much posturing and political grandstanding are being done by people who have little to no experience in how government should work. Seconsly, campaigning becomes too important, bouncing from senate to house in order to keep a job.

I would think that the council would be better served by more reasonable salaries less benefits and staff. People who serve the public should not put themselves above those that they serve. This would weed out those that are there just for the money or the prestige [[?).

Outlet stores are typically found in destination locations. Sometimes they make it, other times they don't. I am thinking about the empty outlet mall near Cedar Point. Going after outlet stores specifically may not work, but going after them as part of a comprehensive program to bring more retail into the City makes sense. In addition, a lot of outlet stores are aready conentrated in the area in Auburn Hills, typically outlet stores do not want to be found in large urban areas because they draw business away from non-outlet stores. Having two outlet stores in a metropolitan area is pretty much unheard of, unless she is thinking of places like TJ Maxx or Burlington as outlet stores.

**iheartthed** · April-23-09, 12:08 PM

I could support reinstating term limits for mayor... Especially with a strong mayor system like Detroit.

I'm against term limits for city council. I'd rather see council members elected by district.

**Locke09** · April-23-09, 12:21 PM

No artificial term limits for anyone. If people aren't smart enough to elect the right leaders, term limits will not help. They'll just keep electing one bad leader after another.

**firstandten** · April-23-09, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by DetroitPlanner

Term limits were a bust in state legislature. Too much posturing and political grandstanding are being done by people who have little to no experience in how government should work. Seconsly, campaigning becomes too important, bouncing from senate to house in order to keep a job.

I would think that the council would be better served by more reasonable salaries less benefits and staff. People who serve the public should not put themselves above those that they serve. This would weed out those that are there just for the money or the prestige [[?).

I thought term limits might work and was a supporter in the beginning, but like you said it seems that especially in the state legislature term limits have not worked at all.

However I don't completely buy the fact to just vote them out. Its not quite that easy. The political power of incumbency just cannot be overstated, that and money and key endorsements actually keep good people from running for office. You try to run a grass roots campaign to get your name out there you risk become a professional candidate and a joke in the community especially if you lose a few too many times

I could live with mayorial term limits. I think 12 years[[ 3 terms) is long enough for any politican. If they can't get there agenda thru in that amount of time then its time for someone else anyway. I wouldn't worry so much about council if we went to a district format since it becomes a very localized election and easier to get rid of someone not wanted.

**professorscott** · April-23-09, 12:31 PM

Term limits represent an abdication of personal responsibility. In this regard they serve the same function as "zero tolerance" regulations.

The idea of zero tolerance is: rather than law enforcement people and judges using their brains to decide how to handle situations one at a time, we'll put in this rule that takes away all of their judgement and discretion and simply compels them to do things by rule.

The idea of term limits is: rather than voters deciding who should hold office, we will have this machine in place that removes people whether the voters would like to keep them or not.

In each case, because of a perceived lack of sense on the part of humans, we decide to replace all human judgement with a machine. I might make a bad decision, so I will put in place an automaton that removes from me the responsibility to decide at all.

It astonishes me that anyone ever thought either of these two things would work well at all.

**firstandten** · April-23-09, 01:04 PM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Term limits represent an abdication of personal responsibility. In this regard they serve the same function as "zero tolerance" regulations..

I think there's a difference. Rather than a abdication of personal responsibility it was a realization for those that supported term limits that politics wasn't a level playing field and the difficulty of affecting change unless you have money or/and influence. Especially problematic in an at-large type of election.

Originally Posted by professorscott

The idea of zero tolerance is: rather than law enforcement people and judges using their brains to decide how to handle situations one at a time, we'll put in this rule that takes away all of their judgement and discretion and simply compels them to do things by rule..

I agree that zero tolerance is not for every situation but the problem we have is that as a society there are certain standards that must be maintained for us to function effectively. Such as sexual harassment, fighting in school and even in some criminal cases. Fair and well thought out zero tolerance policies sends an important message on acceptable behavior.

Originally Posted by professorscott

The idea of term limits is: rather than voters deciding who should hold office, we will have this machine in place that removes people whether the voters would like to keep them or not..

You hit the reason why term limits as they are presently constructed do not work, but the voters in many locales feel disinfranchised, and not represented due to the way elections are structured thus as a way of striking back term limits was thought to work.

**Reality_Check** · April-23-09, 01:10 PM

We interrupt this policy discussion for a juicier observation from a Pancakes and Politics attendee this morning:

"Monica Conyers was on her best behavior. . . . Interestingly, four people -- black and white -- told me during and after the forum they thought Conyers 'must have taken her medication' today. Two who were close to the stage claimed her eyes were hugely dilated."

-- Mary Kramer,
Crain's Det Biz publisher

She reports. You decide.
http://www.crainsdetroit.com/section...insdetroit.com

Ravine · April-23-09, 02:13 PM

Firmly against term limits. It would Really Suck, if we get somebody worthwhile in there, and then have to bounce them because of a law having nothing to do with their performance or achievements.

**professorscott** · April-23-09, 02:36 PM

Zero tolerance on sexual harassment is what has given us six year old kids being suspended from school for kissing another six year old on the cheek. Zero tolerance on violence gets a farm child expelled from school because they forgot to put the hay knife away before they ran out front to catch the bus. I could write fifteen other examples, but why bother?

It is never appropriate to substitute an unthinking machine for human judgment. We simply must accept that the human will sometimes get it wrong, and then must be accountable for the wrong call.

I have very little tolerance [[but not zero) for Zero Tolerance.

LodgeDodger · April-23-09, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by R8RBOB

In the Free Press there is an article about this morning Pancakes and Politics breakfast and something that Ms. Conyers said got me thinking.

"Conyers also said she believes abandoned buildings in the city should be converted to outlet stores and that term limits should be instituted for the Detroit City Council, mayor and school board."

I'm focused on the term limits though abandoned buildings is a serious concern for the city.

Should Detroit go to term limits for the mayor, city council and school board as Conyers had suggested?

I was never a supported of tem limits but after seeing the actions of politicians in Washington and here in Detroit, I am convinced that we have too many career politicians. What do you think?

Here is the link to the story.....http://www.freep.com/article/2009042...ical+breakfast

Oh Dearie, haven't you learned by now that anything out of her mouth is just plain wrong?

**Thames** · April-23-09, 04:33 PM

Well I don't know about anything. ^^

Cockrel does kind of look like Shrek

**R8RBOB** · April-23-09, 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by LodgeDodger

Oh Dearie, haven't you learned by now that anything out of her mouth is just plain wrong?

Well you got me there.....

**thecarl** · April-23-09, 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Big Dog

The downside of term limits for any office is this: What if someone was elected that was absolutely fantastic, in their elected position, only to be removed by term limits and replaced with someone not even near qualified. More persons seek office that are not as qualified as some. When you get a good one, you want to keep that person.

dog, i heard an explanation one time that went like this: term limits are not about "a person," per se. term limits exist to turn over the staff that support a given politician - and sometimes become an even bigger, more deeply entrenched political force on their own.

**rjk** · April-23-09, 06:50 PM

Actually the smartest thing she's ever said was "I do" to John. For her at least, it's been a nightmare for the rest of us.

**jackie5275** · April-23-09, 09:05 PM

Just to jump in with the term limit discussion-They were first introduced when many thought it would get rid of the "career politicians". Career politicians have gone anywhere. They just play musical chairs. Why are Burton Leland & Gary Woronchak on the Wayne County Commission? They got term limited out of the House.

**firstandten** · April-24-09, 07:07 AM

Originally Posted by jackie5275

Just to jump in with the term limit discussion-They were first introduced when many thought it would get rid of the "career politicians". Career politicians have gone anywhere. They just play musical chairs. Why are Burton Leland & Gary Woronchak on the Wayne County Commission? They got term limited out of the House.

Yes, you hit it. Thats how these career politicans get around term limits.
Probably the house term limits should be revised , I believe its 3 2year terms. If we don't get rid of term limits maybe something between 8 and 12 years depending on the office might work a little better.

**firstandten** · April-24-09, 08:42 AM

Originally Posted by professorscott

Zero tolerance on sexual harassment is what has given us six year old kids being suspended from school for kissing another six year old on the cheek. Zero tolerance on violence gets a farm child expelled from school because they forgot to put the hay knife away before they ran out front to catch the bus. I could write fifteen other examples, but why bother?

It is never appropriate to substitute an unthinking machine for human judgment. We simply must accept that the human will sometimes get it wrong, and then must be accountable for the wrong call.

I have very little tolerance [[but not zero) for Zero Tolerance.

Professor , there are many examples of zero tolerance gone insane like you mentioned. I think that because we have such a lack of leadership and common thinking skills by people running our public institions. Some of the common sense has been taken away because we are such a litigious society and a lot of it is because we are such ideologs [[left and right) that many times that overides common sense. Thus appropiate, well thought out zero tolerance policies are sometimes needed.

For example take the case of the 6 year old kissing the girl. I don't know the particulars of the case and on the surface it seems harmless and zero tolerance gone bad. But what if the girls parents had a thing about a boy touching their girl in any matter and hold the school responsible for that happening. We can talk all day about how silly that is, but she is there child , she's in a public institution and they can sue as a result. Now as a result we have no PDA's [[public displays of affection) in some schools in a zero tolerance fashion .

Thats why we see zero tolerance and I would agree that in many cases it is not needed but based on how our society is structured in many cases it is.

Back to MonCon

Its getting to be election time, from this point on she will seem like the reasonable politican, but I think there's too much history for that to work and the voters will look at her entire body of work this time, name recognition will not work for her now.