Once again HCMA tells the city to screw off

**jt1** · May-13-10, 12:58 PM

They will certainly take money from Detroiters but once again show that they are unwilling to do a damn thing in the city. At what point does the city [[and inner rings) fight the HCMA tax.

http://www.freep.com/article/2010051...039/1001/rss01

"The Huron-Clinton Metropolitan Authority this morning rejected a plan to create a new Metropark at the Michigan State Fairgrounds but agreed to look for other park options inside the city limits."

**iheartthed** · May-13-10, 01:08 PM

This should be a good one.

**JBMcB** · May-13-10, 01:18 PM

FTA:

"On a 4-2 vote, the board rejected a proposal to lease the fairgrounds for five years with the option for another 25 years."

In other words - lease the land, fix it all up, then the city takes it back after five years.

The HCMA can barely maintain the parks they have now, it really isn't a good time to take on even greater expenses.

**jt1** · May-13-10, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by JBMcB

FTA:

"On a 4-2 vote, the board rejected a proposal to lease the fairgrounds for five years with the option for another 25 years."

In other words - lease the land, fix it all up, then the city takes it back after five years.

The HCMA can barely maintain the parks they have now, it really isn't a good time to take on even greater expenses.

If they had issue with the lease schedule that could have been discussed and altered. HCMA continues to claim poverty but if you look at the capital improvements they are undertaking they certainly are not broke. The capital improvements aren't bare necessities either it is things like adding water slides, etc.

HCMA, time and again make it clear that they want money from the city but will never do anything for, or in the city. They will happily continue taking their .25 Mil tax from city property owners.

If this same arrangement were made but it benefitted the city at the expense of the region I can assure you that people would be up in arms. Why is it acceptable to steal from the city and inner rings to maintain parks [[and property values) on the outskirts of the region?

I also find it humorous that people always insist the city should turn BI over the HCMA without having a clue that HCMA has no desire to ever maintain a park in the city.

**jt1** · May-13-10, 01:36 PM

Also, just an FYI:

Those voting for:
Lester - Wayne County
John C. Hertel - Gov appointee

Those voting against
Peter S. Walter - Vice-Chairman - Oakland County
Robert W. Marans - Treasurer - Washtenaw County
Anthony V. Marrocco - Secretary - Macomb County
John E. LaBelle - Livingston County

What a surprise

DC48080 · May-13-10, 01:37 PM

HCMA did not give Detroit a slap in the face in any way whatsoever. They simply cannot afford to turn such a large parcel into a Metropark. They are losing funding each year due to declining property values, they don't have any money for something like this.

And it is a bit disingenuous for anyone in Detroit to say "Once again HCMA tells the city to screw off". Any time in the past that an idea has been discussed to have HCMA take over the management of Belle Isle the shrill cries of "They [[the suburbs) are trying to steal the City's jewells" have been deafening. You cannot have it both ways.

Besides, it is the Michigan State Fair, not the Detroit State Fair. If you want to make the rediculous stretch to say they told anyone to "screw off" it was the State that got told that and not the City.

**jt1** · May-13-10, 01:46 PM

HCMA did not give Detroit a slap in the face in any way whatsoever. They simply cannot afford to turn such a large parcel into a Metropark. They are losing funding each year due to declining property values, they don't have any money for something like this.

They have been claiming poverty for years while pumping millions and millions into new items like waterslides and other bs. If you believe their claims of poverty you have some severe issues with facts. To say that revenues are declining is true. To say they are low on funds is not accurate.

And it is a bit disingenuous for anyone in Detroit to say "Once again HCMA tells the city to screw off". Any time in the past that an idea has been discussed to have HCMA take over the management of Belle Isle the shrill cries of "They [[the suburbs) are trying to steal the City's jewells" have been deafening. You cannot have it both ways.

The last time [[I believe that HCMA made any serious talks to help with BI was in the 70s and, yes, the voters of Detroit messed that one up. Since then the city has approached HCMA many times and have been told flat out "No, we are not interested in doing anything in the city"

Besides, it is the Michigan State Fair, not the Detroit State Fair. If you want to make the rediculous stretch to say they told anyone to "screw off" it was the State that got told that and not the City

Assinine semantical argument. The Michigan Fair Grounds are located in the city limits. HCMA doing something at this site would benefit the residents of the city moreso than the residents of the state.

DC48080 · May-13-10, 01:53 PM

You are being overly hyper-sensitive on this one.

Also, putting money into improvements at existing parks pails in comparison to the cost of taking over the fairgrounds and converting it into a park. Assinine argument indeed! Besides Detroit residents are just as welcome in any of the Metroparks as anyone else.

They are being financially prudent in that they do not know when the decrease in revenues is going to stop. Taking on such a major project at this time would be absolutely foolish. I believe that you and simple facts do not seem to have become acquainted on this issue.

And since I don't live out in Harrison Twp I should be angry about HCMA making improvment to Metro Beach since I do not live in Harrison Twp?

**iheartthed** · May-13-10, 02:01 PM

Out of curiosity, anybody know which municipality is the biggest tax payer to HCMA?

**jt1** · May-13-10, 02:08 PM

You are being overly hyper-sensitive on this one.

Perhaps but my issue is that this shows the complete hypocrisy of the region. Whenever regional funds go to help Detroit people are up in arms but blindly allow HCMA to dovert money to specific areas in the region.

[QUOTE]Also, putting money into improvements at existing parks pails in comparison to the cost of taking over the fairgrounds and converting it into a park.

Perhaps - Have you seen the proposals? Do you know what the expectations were? Maintaining existing parks is one thing. Pleading poverty while performing massive, unnecessary upgrades is another. It just speaks to the dishonesty of HCMA. They have been pleading poverty since way before the current housing debacle.

Assinine argument indeed! Besides Detroit residents are just as welcome in any of the Metroparks as anyone else.

Very true. Should we discuss access to transportation or distance to nearest metroparks? The location of the metroparks essentially puts many Detroiters at the greatest distance from a MetroPark. The Grand Canyon is open to all Detroit residents as well but it doesn't make it easily accesible.

They are being financially prudent in that they do not know when the decrease in revenues is going to stop. Taking on such a major project at this time would be absolutely foolish. I believe that you and simple facts do not seem to have become acquainted on this issue.

I agree at this time. However in the last ten years they have also pulled money from 'programming' at the Fairgrounds and BI. The indifference to the city and residents of the city has been on-going much longer than this current economic mess. It makes for an easy excuse now - how about before?

And since I don't live out in Harrison Twp I should be angry about HCMA making improvment to Metro Beach since I do not live in Harrison Twp?

Let's discuss where you live. I suspect that it would put you in greater proximity to at least one MetroPark than most, if not all Detroiters.

Should I assume your handle implies SCS? Not too far from Metro Beach now are you?

**GPCharles** · May-13-10, 02:08 PM

Why get upset with HCMA for not taking over the State Fair property? Why not get upset with the State of Michigan for bailing on the State Fair property, or at least the 124 acres they don't have a prospective buyer for?

Why should HCMA pick up a money loser that the State no longer wants to lose money on? The State was not offering any funding to go with it!

**EastsideAl** · May-13-10, 02:09 PM

It really is time for us to stop sending our money to these folks, take the 0.25 mills and use them for our own struggling parks, including Belle Isle which the HCMA has consistently rejected [[even when we voted for them to take it over). Everyone else in the whole state always kicks up a storm whenever any money is to be spent in big deep dark uninhabitable Detroit, including for our parks, but we're expected to continue to pay for a park system all of whose facilities are miles outside our borders, and who has made it clear they want nothing to do with us, Please.

**jt1** · May-13-10, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by GPCharles

Why get upset with HCMA for not taking over the State Fair property? Why not get upset with the State of Michigan for bailing on the State Fair property, or at least the 124 acres they don't have a prospective buyer for?

Why should HCMA pick up a money loser that the State no longer wants to lose money on? The State was not offering any funding to go with it!

I agree that the State was wrong on dropping support of the Fair Grounds. This issue just shows HCMA continued indifference to the city and people of Detroit. That is the issue I'm addressing.

The State did however do a nice job with the park along the water. The HCMA has done, well, nothing.

**Detroitnerd** · May-13-10, 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by DC48080

Besides Detroit residents are just as welcome in any of the Metroparks as anyone else.

Haha. That's just hilarious. Yes, Detroit residents are just as welcome in any of the Metroparks as anybody else. The only thing is that these are the communities the Metroparks occupy or adjoin.

Ann Arbor [[Delhi), Dexter, [[Dexter-Huron, Hudson Mills), Brighton [[Huron Meadows), White Lake [[Indian Springs), Milford [[Kensington), Brownstown [[Lake Erie), Belleville [[Lower Huron, Oakwoods, Willow), Mount Clemens [[Metro Beach), Shelby Township [[Stony Creek) and Ray [[Wolcott Mill).

You will note that these parks are anywhere from three to 22 miles outside the city. That is, distant from a city where as many as one-third of the residents have no car, and where as many as half the residents are on the poverty line.

Yes, it seems a fair argument that the authority is not exactly equitable when it comes to providing parks for all metro Detroiters.

**Detroitnerd** · May-13-10, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by GPCharles

Why should HCMA pick up a money loser that the State no longer wants to lose money on? The State was not offering any funding to go with it!

Excuse me. Is it the job of the HCMA to make money or to use tax monies to provide recreation for metro Detroiters? You make it sound like it's a business that should be profitable!

**Novine** · May-13-10, 02:36 PM

"my issue is that this shows the complete hypocrisy of the region. Whenever regional funds go to help Detroit people are up in arms but blindly allow HCMA to dovert money to specific areas in the region"

I would say this is a fair criticism. Detroit taxpayers are the largest contributor to the Metroparks funding stream. The city is over 100 square miles in size. The city is by far the largest city by population in the Metroparks service area. But there's not one Metroparks-run park within its borders? How does anyone explain that?

**JBMcB** · May-13-10, 02:53 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

How does anyone explain that?

Why is it called the "Huron-Clinton Metropark Authority." The answer to your question lies within the answer to that one.

**bailey** · May-13-10, 03:01 PM

Originally Posted by Novine

"my issue is that this shows the complete hypocrisy of the region. Whenever regional funds go to help Detroit people are up in arms but blindly allow HCMA to dovert money to specific areas in the region"

I would say this is a fair criticism. Detroit taxpayers are the largest contributor to the Metroparks funding stream. The city is over 100 square miles in size. The city is by far the largest city by population in the Metroparks service area. But there's not one Metroparks-run park within its borders? How does anyone explain that?

How do you get that Detroit taxpayers are the the largest contributor to the Metroparks? they represent more than the residents of the 5 counties combined? really?

**Mkap** · May-13-10, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Excuse me. Is it the job of the HCMA to make money or to use tax monies to provide recreation for metro Detroiters? You make it sound like it's a business that should be profitable!

There is a reason the State dumped the fair grounds. They couldn't break even. The, elephant in the room, question needs to be raised as to why that is. Naw, I guess it's better to let the elephant wander, and just stay out of it's way

.

"It really is time for us to stop sending our money to these folks, take the 0.25 mills and use them for our own struggling parks":
Why not give the city the property, divert the .25 mil tax on it's citizens, and let them use that money to sustain the property, while still giving access to all of the Metro Parks. That way, all of the city residents, even the ones who live waaaay on the other side of the city, can have access to the park.

Seriously though, maintaining that parcel should go private. Government seems to muddle up most of what it touches. Sell it for what it's worth... Capitalism has a way of runing businesses the way they should be run, while making a profit to boot.

**wazootyman** · May-13-10, 03:05 PM

I live in Livonia and not one of the Metroparks is in my city...it's an outrage that when I go to bike in Kensington that I have to drive [[and pay for a season pass). They should put one in Livonia - because I pay taxes for it! Outrage!

Currently, 13 Metroparks covering almost 24,000 acres, serve about 9.5 million visitors annually. The Metroparks are located along the Huron and Clinton rivers, providing a greenbelt around the Detroit metropolitan area.

From: http://www.metroparks.com/content.aspx?ID=19

Can we lower our outrage just a bit?

**wazootyman** · May-13-10, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by bailey

How do you get that Detroit taxpayers are the the largest contributor to the Metroparks? they represent more than the residents of the 5 counties combined? really?

Not to mention the disparity in the taxable value of most homes in Detroit versus most of Oakland county. I can't find numbers beyond 2003 in my brief search, but:

Wayne County SEV total: $56,973,417,310
Oakland County SEV total: $67,085,441,782
Macomb County SEV total: $32,006,586,971
Livingston County SEV total: $8,538,149,077
Washtenaw County SEV total: $15,045,690,552
Detroit SEV total: $12,060,196,226 [[roughly 6-7%)

[[from http://www.crcmich.org/Almanac/Taxes/2003sev-tv.html)

So, about 6-7% of the total income to HCMA is coming from Detroit, [[as of 2003) compared to:

Wayne County population total: 1,925,848
Oakland County population total: 1,205,508
Macomb County population total: 831,427
Livingston County population total: 183,118
Washtenaw County population total: 347,563
Detroit population total: 871,121 [[roughly 20%)

[[population is based on 2009 estimates from http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/26163.html)

...about 20% of the population.

I know my numbers are a bit rough, but it suggests that the average Detroiter is contributing less in total dollars than the rest of the region, on average.

**Bobl** · May-13-10, 03:33 PM

From the article:
"...Several board members said they have received a cold reaction from Mayor Dave Bing about the idea of a Metropark at the fairgrounds, which only made it a tougher sell..."
Perhaps Bing has bigger fish to fry, and HCMA has other opportunities. I see no need to continue an "us" vs "them" argument here.

DC48080 · May-13-10, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by wazootyman

Not to mention the disparity in the taxable value of most homes in Detroit versus most of Oakland county. I can't find numbers beyond 2003 in my brief search, but:

Wayne County SEV total: $56,973,417,310
Oakland County SEV total: $67,085,441,782
Macomb County SEV total: $32,006,586,971
Livingston County SEV total: $8,538,149,077
Washtenaw County SEV total: $15,045,690,552
Detroit SEV total: $12,060,196,226 [[roughly 6-7%)

[[from http://www.crcmich.org/Almanac/Taxes/2003sev-tv.html)

So, about 6-7% of the total income to HCMA is coming from Detroit, [[as of 2003) compared to:

Wayne County population total: 1,925,848
Oakland County population total: 1,205,508
Macomb County population total: 831,427
Livingston County population total: 183,118
Washtenaw County population total: 347,563
Detroit population total: 871,121 [[roughly 20%)

[[population is based on 2009 estimates from http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/26/26163.html)

...about 20% of the population.

I know my numbers are a bit rough, but it suggests that the average Detroiter is contributing less in total dollars than the rest of the region, on average.

There ya go Wazootyman. I'm glad you had the time to do the research that I do not have the time to do in my busy day today.

However, obvious facts will do nothing to silence the shrill screams that Detroit is getting hosed.

DC48080 · May-13-10, 03:38 PM

Originally Posted by Bobl

I see no need to continue an "us" vs "them" argument here.

I agree Bobl. But, sadly, that is what part of the Detroityes community has become. There are some on here that will twist undisputable facts to suit their own agendas.

Welcome to the age of the anonymous internet, where everyone is an expert on everything and there are little consequences for outright bullshit and bombast.

Bearinabox · May-13-10, 04:13 PM

Originally Posted by DC48080

There ya go Wazootyman. I'm glad you had the time to do the research that I do not have the time to do in my busy day today.

However, obvious facts will do nothing to silence the shrill screams that Detroit is getting hosed.

Who are you kidding?