Was there really a stripper party at the Manoogian Mansion?

[xphillipjrx]

The Tamara Greene story has been in the news since she was killed in 2003. I figured DetroitYes would be the appropriate place to post this poll because the members of DY know about EVERYTHING.

Somebody could inquire about a restaurant and turns out the former owner's relative is on DY and can share first hand knowledge. Somebody asked about the Holiday Inn in Southfield and another person posted links to identical buildings all over the USA. A thread about a FMC building lead to all kinds of posts about secret rooms and tunnels. There is a Google street view image of a guy laying on the sidewalk with his back to the camera and TWO people from DY could ID the guy.

Therefore somebody on DetroitYes must know something. I'm not expecting names to get named, but if a few experienced DY members can say that they know a party occurred then that's good enough for me.

FWIW I am in the doubtful camp. It's tough to keep something like that under wraps for seven years given the moral character of the supposed attendees. If it really happened then somebody would have used their knowledge as an axe to grind or as a bargaining chip with prosecutors. It wasn't a mob party and somebody would have sang like a canary by now. "Wait WAIT. I know something about that party".

[DetroitSTAR]

I believe it happened. If the party happened as the claim states, then there are people so hell bent on covering things up that they are willing to kill. That is enough to keep many people silent. A few parts of the whole story have been proven true through released texts. Just imagine what would happen if you were allowed to follow all of the bread crumbs...

In the end, I don't want to know the rest of the story. We know there was plenty of bad decisions made by Kilpatrick and his people. I wish it would all go away, but it never will. If we have to believe it didn't happen so that it goes away, that is fine by me.

[jcole]

I the end, I don't want to know the rest of the story. We know there was plenty of bad decisions made by Kilpatrick and his people. I wish it would all go away, but it never will. If we have to believe it didn't happen so that it goes away, that is fine by me.

If it happened, the poor woman deserves to have the story told and the perpetrators of the crime prosecuted.

[DetroitSTAR]

If it happened, the poor woman deserves to have the story told and the perpetrators of the crime prosecuted.

This is true, but would it change anything? It is very sad that a family lost a loved one, but nothing will bring her back. Anyone directly associated with Kilpatrick's administration has either lost credibility or is having to face ridicule and harsh judgment already.

I'm all for truth and justice, but at what cost? President Ford pardoned Richard Nixon not because he deserved it, but because it was the right thing to do to help the nation move forward psychologically. I think that is the position Detroit is in right now.

[professorscott]

The belief that there was such a party, among a fairly massive segment of the public, is so overpowering that it makes very little difference whether the party actually ever happened or not.

The party is ingrained quite deeply in the imagination of the regional public; the fact of it having happened or not is rather a trifle at this point. [[That's not to diminish the tragedy of the violent death of the young woman, which I don't think has anything to do with the legendary party; it is just to point out that the public has reached its verdict which was that there was such a party, whether the party ever occurred in fact or did not.)

[LodgeDodger]

Perhaps you should poll the folks who live in the Berry sub.

[Detwa]

I've always wondered if anyone has ever asked the neighbors of the Manoogian? Or have they all claimed to not know anything? You would think one of them would have had a security camera running.

[Johnlodge]

Republican Gubernatorial candidate Mike Cox doesn't think there was, but he can't really remember. His subpoenaed phone records from during the "investigation" can't be found, as he doesn't recall which phone company he was using at the time. I would have hoped someone in the position of Attorney General would be better at finding such important documents. Perhaps that's why he wants us to now elect him Governor instead, less stuff to remember.

[royce]

The reason I believe that there was a party at the Manoogian Mansion is because I can't believe that someone could have just made the whole story up. What reason would anyone have for making something like this up? How does someone just say, "Hey, let me make up a story about the mayor having a party with strippers at the Manoogian." There was no election coming up so there was no reason for a political opponent to bad mouth the mayor. I mean really, one person had to conjure this story up and then be very convincing to get others to believe in it and spread the rumor around. I don't buy it.

This is what I do buy: during a Labor Day weekend when many neighbors in the Berry subdivision are probably out of town or focusing on their own parties, a decision was made within the mayor's inner-circle to have a party at the Manoogian since the mayor's family had not moved in yet and for the reasons mentioned above. Having a party there made sense because any loud music coming from there could be attributed to any number of homes in the neighborhood because it was a holiday weekend.

Why no one has come out publicly to talk about it because many in attendance were either DPD police officers or close friends and family members of Mayor Kilpatrick. What reason would they have to voluntarily come forward to talk about the party? Remember, Tamara Greene, if at the party, wouldn't have been someone that any of the party goers would know about. Not until her death was made public would anyone start to connect any dots.

Now, I'm sure people who were at the party were the ones who leaked out its existence to close friends and family members and that is why we heard about it. However, given their relationship with the mayor they would have never admitted that the party happened. Even with Tamara Greene's death, there still would not have been a reason for anyone to come forward unless they had evidence that the mayor was directly involved with her death and that she was killed because of her presence at the Manoogian party. That connection remains to be seen. However, whether there is a connection between her death and the party has nothing to do with the fact that a party at the Manoogian probly did happen. That is my belief and I sticking to it.

[royce]

The reason I believe that there was a party at the Manoogian Mansion is because I can't believe that someone could have just made the whole story up. What reason would anyone have for making something like this up? How does someone just say, "Hey, let me make up a story about the mayor having a party with strippers at the Manoogian." There was no election coming up so there was no reason for a political opponent to bad mouth the mayor. I mean really, one person had to conjure this story up and then be very convincing to get others to believe in it and spread the rumor around. I don't buy it.

This is what I do buy: during a Labor Day weekend when many neighbors in the Berry subdivision are probably out of town or focusing on their own parties, a decision was made within the mayor's inner-circle to have a party at the Manoogian since the mayor's family had not moved in yet and for the reasons mentioned above. Having a party there made sense because any loud music coming from there could be attributed to any number of homes in the neighborhood because it was a holiday weekend.

Why no one has come out publicly to talk about it because many in attendance were either DPD police officers or close friends and family members of Mayor Kilpatrick. What reason would they have to voluntarily come forward to talk about the party? Remember, Tamara Greene, if at the party, wouldn't have been someone that any of the party goers would know about. Not until her death was made public would anyone start to connect any dots.

Now, I'm sure people who were at the party were the ones who leaked out its existence to close friends and family members and that is why we heard about it. However, given their relationship with the mayor they would have never admitted that the party happened. Even with Tamara Greene's death, there still would not have been a reason for anyone to come forward unless they had evidence that the mayor was directly involved with her death and that she was killed because of her presence at the Manoogian party. That connection remains to be seen. However, whether there is a connection between her death and the party has nothing to do with the fact that a party at the Manoogian probly did happen. That is my belief and I sticking to it.

[rb336]

i'm one of the doubters on this one, and that is is because the only info seems to come from disgruntled former employees with an ax to grind. further, the assumption that if there was a party, it was key to Ms Greene's murder is merely speculation based on speculation. I didn't vote No Way because I don't know, and facts could eventually confirm it

[kryptonite]

I have to question it myself. Has anyone other than pissed-off city employees ever verified the party? I hear the neighbors in Berry Sub claim there were many parties.

Were there witnesses at the hospital where Tamara Green was taken? There just don't appear to be unbiased witnesses that say yes there was a party. but then if KK had invited only supporters to the party and the beating of TG by Carlita was only witnessed by a few then there could well be nobody willing to verify it. Most likely if Carlita showed up raising hell people would have been shooed out of the house.

Who knows the truth? I could easily believe it but where are credible unbiased people that can say yes it happened?

[detroitbred]

All of this continuous conjecture is one major reason why we all need and deserve to know the truth. I, for one, believe it happened. The people whose lives and jobs were affected by all of this should know the truth once and for all. Royce, I think your scenario is very plausible. And no one should beleive anything that weasel Mike Cox says.

[Carey]

Put me down as "doubtful." In almost eight years, no real evidence has emerged that would support the basic rumor -- a wild party at the Manoogian at which the city's First Lady beat up a stripper. Norman Yatooma's depositions have proven nothing. They've offered tantalizing -- and questionable -- tibits from tangential people who were not anywhere near the mansion that night. We know the most intimate details of all the important matters in Kilpatrick's life, but no hard evidence has surfaced on a party, which in itself would be one of the least siginficant aspects of the Kwame Saga. Two or three investigative agencies and every media outlet in town have investigated that scenario to death. Result: Nothing solid. Case closed!

[eno]

I first heard about the party via a City of Detroit co-worker. Her husband had friends in the Mayor's security team who told him about trying to stop Carlita from entering the Manoogian Mansion that night. He was told Carlita beat the pole dancer with a baseball bat. Another City of Detroit co-worker had a daughter who was a nurse at Detroit General Hospital and heard about the "emergency" that came into the hospital on her shift. The emergency was the stripper who was beaten with a baseball bat by Carlita.

[softailrider]

I asked an Arson Squad cop that I sort of know if there was a party at the Manoogian. His answer to me was " of course there was" I don't know what that really means, but that's what he said.

[Gannon]

This poll question is skewed, and may lead some to literally answer it backwards.

I would like it amended to read, "at least one" stripper party at the Manoogian, and we can make it more precise by asking with the disclaimer "that was crashed by the Mayor's wife, where some altercation occurred which appears to actively being covered up by all involved, save for a few on the periphery with credibility...like the Chief of the Southfield Police department, a driver for the Detroit EMS, a dispatcher, and numerous reports from hospital personnel."

Now THAT'S a poll question. BTW, I voted definitely yes. Would you like to meet some eye witnesses, or near-neighbors from around the block, or other city employees who were joking about this for six months or so until people started dying?


I'm sorry if I'm a buzz clamp in all this...but there is no doubt that this party happened. As far as I've been able to figure...one woman was put into a coma at the end of Carlita's Louisville Slugger [[indications she was flown to Atlanta where a street death was staged, wouldn't be a bad idea to look at private plane flights within a few days of this event, probably out of City Airport, and probably somebody DEEP into Kwhyme's pocket)...another was injured enough to require a ride to Receiving, where she got treatment under the id of a female police officer after they chased any stray employees out of the area...although all traces of the paperwork have gone missing, along with security video [[they gave her a settlement, she bought a car, went back for more, they offed her, all standard Elmore Leonard stuff, only real)....the third, if all strong rumor is correct, was already a Detroit police officer...who moved to a downriver pd for a while, then became a Sheriff...where I conjecture she was the one who brought Kwhyme his Fishbones meals in the jail cell he was powerful enough to order an HVAC tech to get the temperature right, for half a day.


Anything else?!


Cheers

[R8RBOB]

I first heard about the party via a City of Detroit co-worker. Her husband had friends in the Mayor's security team who told him about trying to stop Carlita from entering the Manoogian Mansion that night. He was told Carlita beat the pole dancer with a baseball bat. Another City of Detroit co-worker had a daughter who was a nurse at Detroit General Hospital and heard about the "emergency" that came into the hospital on her shift. The emergency was the stripper who was beaten with a baseball bat by Carlita.

I selected doubtful and I will tell eveyone why.

Ever since the "party" came out the only people that would validate that a party, beating and cover-up occurred were either city employees and EMT workers. That will not do. We need a patron, a "eyeball witness" who was there in the Manoogian partying up with the mayor and his boys to say without a doubt that a party did occur, that a stripper was beaten up and a cover-up was enacted to protect the mayor and his wife.

As it stands, people are claiming that the former mayor threw a party in the Manoogian prior to the first family moving in sometime in late 2002. No one to this day has given a actually date when the party was held. Nobody from former officers, dispatchers and EMT workers have given a date when the party was held, when Ms. Greene or another stripper was admitted at any Detroit hospital. Why is that? EMT workers have logs. For a EMT worker to claim that he saw Tamara Greene beaten or someone who could been a stripper beaten yet he could not provide a date as to when he saw here is suspect.

I know some people want to believe that a party occurred and because of that party, a stripper was gunned down because she was alleged to be one the dancers at that party but logically I don't see any connection. Ms. Greene may in fact knew the ex-mayor but connecting her to this party that hasn't been verified just don't connect.

[Novine]

Until one of those people post about it on DY, it didn't happen!

[dookie joe]

I'm the lone guy who voted NFW. Why did I vote this way? Because there is NO WAY Kwame hosted a stripper party at the Manoogian.

My guess would be, 10-15 stripper parties there.

[dookie joe]

I selected doubtful and I will tell eveyone why.

Ever since the "party" came out the only people that would validate that a party, beating and cover-up occurred were either city employees and EMT workers. That will not do. We need a patron, a "eyeball witness" who was there in the Manoogian partying up with the mayor and his boys to say without a doubt that a party did occur, that a stripper was beaten up and a cover-up was enacted to protect the mayor and his wife.

For all we know, Mike Cox and/or Ella Bully said that. We don't know. Their depositions about the party have been sealed, and they're fighting to keep them sealed. Why would they do that if there's nothing to hide?

But either way, that's a pretty high standard you're establishing, demanding that someone who was actually at the party come forward, or else you don't believe it happened.

Who would have been invited to a stripper party held by the mayor in the mayoral mansion? Close, trusted friends ONLY. Do you think any of them are going to come out and spill the beans? Maybe someone might, but it's highly doubtful.

I know some people want to believe that a party occurred and because of that party, a stripper was gunned down because she was alleged to be one the dancers at that party but logically I don't see any connection. Ms. Greene may in fact knew the ex-mayor but connecting her to this party that hasn't been verified just don't connect.

Then there would have been no reason whatsoever for Mike Cox to tell that state trooper to stand down on his investigation. There would have been no reason for police to refuse to give files to investigators.

I'm not saying this is 100 percent proof -- but if you "don't see a connection" then you need glasses, my friend.

If you don't think this happened, then what is your theory? That this story was invented by someone out of whole cloth? That they just pulled Tamara Greene's name out of a hat and connected her with a party that never happened?

[R8RBOB]

For all we know, Mike Cox and/or Ella Bully said that. We don't know. Their depositions about the party have been sealed, and they're fighting to keep them sealed. Why would they do that if there's nothing to hide?

But either way, that's a pretty high standard you're establishing, demanding that someone who was actually at the party come forward, or else you don't believe it happened.

Who would have been invited to a stripper party held by the mayor in the mayoral mansion? Close, trusted friends ONLY. Do you think any of them are going to come out and spill the beans? Maybe someone might, but it's highly doubtful.




Then there would have been no reason whatsoever for Mike Cox to tell that state trooper to stand down on his investigation. There would have been no reason for police to refuse to give files to investigators.

I'm not saying this is 100 percent proof -- but if you "don't see a connection" then you need glasses, my friend.

If you don't think this happened, then what is your theory? That this story was invented by someone out of whole cloth? That they just pulled Tamara Greene's name out of a hat and connected her with a party that never happened?

Sorry but unless someone comes forth with PROOF that a party occur, it is all hearsay. As I said earlier, there is no date of the party. There is no witnesses to validate said party occur. If Yatooma had a slam dunk case then what Mike Cox did or did not do would not matter since it could be exposed in a court of law.

As I said prior and I will say it again. Unless someone other than a cop or city worker or EMT comes out and say as fact that a party occurred on unknown date in late 2002 then the party is just a myth. We already know the cops aren't going to say anymore what they have been saying for years so it is time for a eyeball witness to validate that a party happened, that Carlita Kilpatrick beat the hell out a stripper and that stripper needed medical care afterwards and that the mayor orchestrated a cover-up that would involved the AG and the State Police.

Two things:

Tamara Greene was no angel and...

As for needed glasses, here is a date for you: February 19, 2005. The day I had Lasik to correct my vision. At least I know the date. Can someone reveal the date of the Manoogian party?

[Chuck_MI]

Sorry but unless someone comes forth with PROOF that a party occur, it is all hearsay. As I said earlier, there is no date of the party. There is no witnesses to validate said party occur. If Yatooma had a slam dunk case then what Mike Cox did or did not do would not matter since it could be exposed in a court of law.

As I said prior and I will say it again. Unless someone other than a cop or city worker or EMT comes out and say as fact that a party occurred on unknown date in late 2002 then the party is just a myth. We already know the cops aren't going to say anymore what they have been saying for years so it is time for a eyeball witness to validate that a party happened, that Carlita Kilpatrick beat the hell out a stripper and that stripper needed medical care afterwards and that the mayor orchestrated a cover-up that would involved the AG and the State Police.

Two things:

Tamara Greene was no angel and...

As for needed glasses, here is a date for you: February 19, 2005. The day I had Lasik to correct my vision. At least I know the date. Can someone reveal the date of the Manoogian party?

I'm curious to know the significance of the date you give. 2/19/05. There has to be more to this than you perhaps realized when you gave up that date.

[East Detroit]

This poll question is skewed, and may lead some to literally answer it backwards.

I would like it amended to read, "at least one" stripper party at the Manoogian...

Anything else?!

I'm the lone guy who voted NFW. Why did I vote this way? Because there is NO WAY Kwame hosted a stripper party at the Manoogian.

My guess would be, 10-15 stripper parties there.

If there were multiple stripper parties, then there was also one stripper party.

The poll question did not state "one and only one."

Please get your stripper party semantics straightened out. This is important.

[R8RBOB]

I'm curious to know the significance of the date you give. 2/19/05. There has to be more to this than you perhaps realized when you gave up that date.

The date is significant only to me. Don't try to make more of it.