The self-immolation of Alice Herz in 1965

**Patrick** · May-08-10, 11:26 PM

Does anyone remember the self-immolation of Alice Herz in 1965? Apparently, it happened on a street corner somewhere in Detroit in March of 1965. Where did this happen and does anyone know anymore about it? Usually, when we think of self immolation, we think of that image of Buddhist monks in Vietnam burning to death.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alice_Herz

**rid0617** · May-09-10, 04:07 AM

I don't see how anyone could stand the burning pain while waiting for death. Not the last thing I want to remember on the way out.

Bearinabox · May-09-10, 04:23 AM

Originally Posted by rid0617

I don't see how anyone could stand the burning pain while waiting for death. Not the last thing I want to remember on the way out.

Not to mention that someone put her out, and then she lived with horrible burns for ten more days.

She must've really been pissed about that war.

**Gannon** · May-09-10, 06:06 AM

Ah, more proof that the fine art of self-expression has largely faded away.

There are a few volatile TeaBaggers who'd I'd love to introduce to my good friend Sparky...why can't we bring this back into fashion, at least for a limited run?!

Yeah, and maybe someone can suggest to the Big Diamond that if he's REALLY pissed at those who forced him from office...

**maxx** · May-09-10, 06:27 AM

Her daughter Helga has been active with WILPF in Detroit for ages. I don't know if she is still alive.

**RickBeall** · May-09-10, 11:10 AM

I think she had just accidentally ordered the spicy Thai plate and the whole thing just got blown out of proportion.

**EastsideAl** · May-09-10, 11:53 AM

A little more information on Alice Herz:
http://books.google.com/books?id=9kR...page&q&f=false

I wish there was a little more of this. I know she was active in the pacifist and war abolition movements of the time.

Still, she would have done better to pour that lighter fluid over Bob McNamara and set him alight.

LodgeDodger · May-09-10, 12:21 PM

So, let me get this straight, someone asks a question about the location of a woman who attempted to immolate herself. What follows are a number of stupid, lame-assed attempts at humor? You people have hit a new low. Gannon and Rick, you should be ashamed of yourselves.

Finally, someone posted an answer to the first poster's question.

detroitjim · May-09-10, 01:22 PM

So, let me get this straight, someone asks a question about the location of a woman who attempted to immolate herself. What follows are a number of stupid, lame-assed attempts at humor?

Wait a minute let me help you!
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**Gannon** · May-09-10, 01:33 PM

LD,

Tall horse you're riding there.

My initial comment was not anything but straight ahead. I do feel as if this art of self-expression has largely faded, few are willing to give up everything for a cause.

Certainly, it would be easier for an octogenarian who's used up every one of her approaches to influencing other's behavior to not only ATTEMPT, but I daresay largely succeed with this immolation. I am sure she could see the end of her trajectory in this incarnation, and did this desperate thing as a last-ditch effort at making a difference.

I'm sure you've noticed in the past a tendency for other mere humans to fall to humor when they encounter something beyond their capacity to fathom. Get OFF that high horse and come visit us down here at ground level...when you think us beneath you, your capacity for empathy and/or sympathy is diminished towards the vanishing point.

I am still trying to grasp how I feel about this woman who decided to end her own life in protest over others ending OTHERS lives. Logically, that is a total mess. I am NOT going to immediately raise her up as a hero, since I'm NOT sure I want youngsters to find torching themselves suddenly vogue.

Sincerely,
John

LodgeDodger · May-09-10, 08:18 PM

You're telling ME to get off my high horse? Sure thing, Darling.

Your earlier comments in this thread were both thoughtless and served no purpose. With your self-professed introspection, perhaps you should have given your comments a second thought.

Such a death is a horrible thing. One never should make light of it.

Stosh · May-09-10, 08:41 PM

Honestly, I admire her conviction. But the method, not so much, I'm afraid.

**jcole** · May-09-10, 09:47 PM

Not a way I would choose to prove a point, either, but she did have the courage of her convictions, that's certain.

**Gannon** · May-10-10, 03:15 AM

LD,

In something like eight years or so on this forum, I'm pretty sure my track record is secure...and there is precious little evidence of what you call second thought influencing my posts, some would say not even any sign of first thought.

We consider defending this woman's suicide in a positive light ONLY because she is not merely solidly behind Peace over War, Life over Death [[at least altruistically in general if not specific), but in lieu of popular history she was also correct. If neither were the case, she would be relegated to an internet history written through her Darwin Award.

Is this not the ultimate, "HEY, watch me do this!"

People joke about gruesome death all the time, since humankind could talk. It is how we deal with ugly and stressful things. This woman's action in particular is a quandary because a sentient being consumed itself in the most painful of ways, any of us with ego sit in awe and confusion and wonder. What would drive anyone to do this?

Giddyap!

Cheers,
John

Ravine · May-10-10, 04:34 AM

I dunno, JG. For a person with a clear conscience, you sure are going through a lot of Windex.

9mile&seneca · May-10-10, 06:43 AM

"Still, she would have done better to pour that lighter fluid over Bob McNamara and set him alight." Best thing ever said on this forum!

**kryptonite** · May-10-10, 10:37 AM

I don't know, I got a chuckle out of some of the humorous posts. Herz blew it, it seems like a stupid way to use up your 15 minutes of fame.

**Gannon** · May-10-10, 12:07 PM

Thanks for the chuckle, Ravine, I needed that today.

Not tryin' to streak up anything, I'm merely considering the matter.

I've been asking everyone I know who lived in Detroit during that time...and not a one has heard of her. So, the effectiveness of her actions are in doubt.

She did, nonetheless, succeed in immolating herself. That much is clear.

I extrapolated a bit on this over a late Bates breakfast with my Livonia friend this morning...he is recovering from major hip replacement, so I've got to leave town to see him...and concluded that I would push this with every blowhard I know from now on.

I intend on helping the world become a better place, right up until I become a blowhard myself. Some will say I'm years late.

But with everyone who raises a stink about anything...I'm going to suggest immolation.

Even those who insist on greening everything...it would be the best use of a gallon of petroleum, eliminating any future carbon footprint...literally.

So...where were we?...

**menckensghost** · May-10-10, 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Gannon

There are a few volatile TeaBaggers who'd I'd love to introduce to my good friend Sparky...why can't we bring this back into fashion, at least for a limited run?!

This may be a novel way to solve the energy crisis. Convince TeaBaggers to set themselves ablaze for the good of the nation. Of course, it would undoubtedly be for the common good . . .

**kryptonite** · May-10-10, 01:52 PM

Or how about smokers torching themselves to protest the MI smoking ban?

Or right-to-lifers self-igniting to protest Proposal 2 passing?

maybe even the police brutality protesters could set themselves aflame to protest the arrest of the killer of the police office on the east side last week.

Robert Bobb supporters could do a pyrotechnic Jonestown thingie?

**Gistok** · May-10-10, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Gannon

My initial comment was not anything but straight ahead. I do feel as if this art of self-expression has largely faded, few are willing to give up everything for a cause.

Today that slow process has been sadly replaced by dynamite vests and the prospect of 72 virgins....

**Gannon** · May-10-10, 04:23 PM

Gistok,

That was exactly where our meanderings went in Livonia today, too.

If you are willing to eliminate yourself from the grand equation, it isn't a stretch for one to figure out taking others out makes for a more noticeable news story.

I suspect the powers that be allowed this old news story to fade out of history on purpose.

Can't be giving the sheople ideas on escaping before they are fleeced...and they certainly don't want scorched wool.

**BShea** · May-10-10, 04:54 PM

People tend to forget that the original Vietnamese Buddhist monk to immolate himself, Thich Quang Duc in June 1963, did so not to protest the war, but to protest the Ngo Dinh Diem regime's treatment of the monks. Diem was Roman Catholic, and something of a goon.

The crisis did eventually lead to Diem's assassination and regime change, so I guess his protest worked.

Herz on the other hand didn't appear to have much effect, since the war lasted another decade.

**jerrytimes** · May-10-10, 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by menckensghost

This may be a novel way to solve the energy crisis. Convince TeaBaggers to set themselves ablaze for the good of the nation. Of course, it would undoubtedly be for the common good . . .

If Liberals did this the world would REALLY be a better place.... to only hope.

**EastsideAl** · May-10-10, 06:02 PM

While it was taken at the time as specifically a protest against the Vietnam War, probably since it so clearly imitated the actions of Vietnamese monks, it seems clear from her own words that Vietnam was only part of what she was protesting. The full target seems to have been the growth in nuclear weapons, U.S.Cold War nuclear and military policy, and the resulting likelihood of large-scale destruction.

She stated that she was going to commit the self-immolation on the Wayne State campus, but for some reason she actually did it at the corner of Grand River and Oakman in what was then a busy shopping area. In part since she didn't die immediately the incident appears to have been a small, if unusual, story at the time. Rather ironically, part of the reason that her death 10 days later garnered very little notice is that in the interim another Detroit-area activist, Viola Liuzzo, was murdered in Alabama due to her participation in the civil-rights movement.