What light rail will do for Detroit

[canuck]

Found this great film on Rethink Detroit dated february 15:

I checked to see if a link to this PBS documentary is on DetroitYes but didnt find it, so I'm posting it hoping some more folks get to see it. It's also a lot less dramatic than the stuff we are used to seeing about Detroit...

http://www.rethinkdetroit.org/2010/0...o-for-detroit/

[Isle_of_fun]

Thank You canuck
As a former Detroiter who used the bus service daily, I could not begin to imagine living in that city without it.
It would be beneficial to anyone anywhere to view this film with an open mind and maybe some open pockets to help fund an advanced transportation system.
Just the thought of getting from one place to the next within one hour versus four hours while using safe green technology should inspire anyone to think about what this film could inspire!

[Hermod]

Thank You canuck
As a former Detroiter who used the bus service daily, I could not begin to imagine living in that city without it.
It would be beneficial to anyone anywhere to view this film with an open mind and maybe some open pockets to help fund an advanced transportation system.
Just the thought of getting from one place to the next within one hour versus four hours while using safe green technology should inspire anyone to think about what this film could inspire!

"Safe green technology"???

Last time I looked the streetcars used electricity generated by "clean green" coal.

Maybe you are going to put sails on the roofs of the cars or possibly solar collectors? Maybe the cars can be pulled by steam locos fired with old corn cobs?

Taxpayers, open your pockets. Time when it made economic sense for a corporation to build transit and have it pay for itself out of the farebox is long, long past.

[Stosh]

Absolutely








Nothing. Seriously.

[professorscott]

That first bit is silly, Hermod, though your second point is correct. Mass transit is very "green" compared to the most common mode of transportation in metro Detroit - the private automobile with 1 to 2 occupants. The crucial question is not how much energy is expended in moving a vehicle [[or where the energy comes from), since nobody is driving the car in order to move the car. The crucial question is how much energy is expended in moving each person, since it is the people we are trying to move.

By the way, if any of you are engineers or engineering-minded, there are massive gains yet to be realized in automobile efficiency, since just about 1% of the gasoline your car uses is expended in transporting you.

But public transportation is very efficient in terms of how much energy is used to move the people, compared to a car. Now, some of you living near the remote ends of a SMART bus line might think the bus is running empty, since near the remote ends they do. But overall SMART and DDOT's average passenger loads represent much less energy use than if all those people were riding in one or two person cars, and rail transit typically does even better [[much better) than that.

Now as to your other point, yes. Metro Detroit funds transit at about 1/3 the level [[per capita) of regions of similar size, density and population. If we want decent transit, we will have to pay for it, and we means we.

Cheers,
Prof. Scott

[Crumbled_pavement]

Very interesting documentary. However, I don't think light rail will ever happen in Detroit. According to the documentary, manufacturing came first then the street car. There is no manufacturing or industry in Detroit right now for mass transit to follow. The cost is too great and few people in this region see that vision. To be fair I know a co-worker who is very bullish on mass transit, yet I seriously doubt he'd be willing to sacrifice even a penny in tax increases to make it happen. Bottomline, the documentary was very neat, but unrealistic here.

[dtowncitylover]

LOL!!!

If you don't see or want light rail "to happen" in Detroit, then you can kiss a newer and better Detroit goodbye. We will never have the Detroit of the 1950s, but we sure want a livable, urban, nicer Detroit that can be the pride of the state. And without a public transit system that include both a reliable bus system and a light rail network, in conjunction with a commuter rail system under a Regional Transit Authority, Detroit will not and cannot be a city.

[Crumbled_pavement]

LOL!!!

If you don't see or want light rail "to happen" in Detroit, then you can kiss a newer and better Detroit goodbye. We will never have the Detroit of the 1950s, but we sure want a livable, urban, nicer Detroit that can be the pride of the state. And without a public transit system that include both a reliable bus system and a light rail network, in conjunction with a commuter rail system under a Regional Transit Authority, Detroit will not and cannot be a city.

You and I do not disagree on this point. But where do you see the political will to make this become reality? Sounds like a pipe dream unless this region goes through an enormously radical transformation.

[Warrenite84]

If Detroit and Oakland County stop trying to exert control, then I believe chances are good that a regional transit systen is in our future.

I was initially annoyed that the M-1 Rail project got bumped again to start construction in late 2011 instead of this fall. After further thought, it makes sense to slow down plans so our elected officials can build support among Metro Detroiters to approve funding for the operation and expansion of the planned Rapid Transit Master Plan in an expanding economy.
[[Only if we are now coming out of the Great Recession).

It would be a much tougher battle to raise taxes for anything in a poor economy.

I prefer the project get built A.S.A.P., but it seems that so many delays keep popping up like mushrooms lately.

[detroitbob]

Found this view of a Portland light rail car running in the curb lane...can't wait to see this on Woodward!

[rjlj]

I highly recommend the 'Cities on Speed' Series. I saw the Bogota episode on the Sundance Channel last night and it was exactly what Detroit is going through now but tells the story of what happened to Bogota 20 years ago. It basically lays out the playbook for Detroit's future if it wants to survive. It spoke about the corruption and the perception of corrcuption[[Kwame) Bogota previously had and what it is doing to move the city forward[[education with Bobbs, transit, bringing regional leaders, establishing a foundation and letting it grow from there, etc..)

http://www.sundancechannel.com/films/500564455/

Bing really needs to see this movie.

[Hermod]

That first bit is silly, Hermod, though your second point is correct. Mass transit is very "green" compared to the most common mode of transportation in metro Detroit - the private automobile with 1 to 2 occupants. The crucial question is not how much energy is expended in moving a vehicle [[or where the energy comes from), since nobody is driving the car in order to move the car. The crucial question is how much energy is expended in moving each person, since it is the people we are trying to move.

But, Professor, the same thing operates for freight and that is possible right now without any massive infusion of taxpayer dollars. All it would take is a government ukase to discourage the use of the single driver and prime mover moving the single container [[semitrailer).

We have the freight rail net in place already. Just require that highway demons can only operate from point of origin to the nearest intermodal yard. The container then uses the rails with two or three diesel engines to move a couple of hundred containers rather than one diesel engine [[and driver) to a container. The highway demon then picks the container up from the intermodal and delivers it a few miles to the destination.

Plus, the intercity highways would last much, much longer without the constant pounding of the big trucks.

[stasu1213]

If Detroit and Oakland County stop trying to exert control, then I believe chances are good that a regional transit systen is in our future.

I was initially annoyed that the M-1 Rail project got bumped again to start construction in late 2011 instead of this fall. After further thought, it makes sense to slow down plans so our elected officials can build support among Metro Detroiters to approve funding for the operation and expansion of the planned Rapid Transit Master Plan in an expanding economy.
[[Only if we are now coming out of the Great Recession).

It would be a much tougher battle to raise taxes for anything in a poor economy.

I prefer the project get built A.S.A.P., but it seems that so many delays keep popping up like mushrooms lately.

I is not going to happen. I had said it last year and I am saying it this year

[stasu1213]

How many times I have to repeat myself. These bought off politicians are not going to let it happen. They are being told by special interest groups including GM to throw a monkey wrench in the planning of mass transit. Graholm could care less also. Many funds had ben wasted on these roads with the cheap asphalt that is being used. These roads were repaved not too long ago.

[dtowncitylover]

How many times I have to repeat myself. These bought off politicians are not going to let it happen. They are being told by special interest groups including GM to throw a monkey wrench in the planning of mass transit. Graholm could care less also. Many funds had ben wasted on these roads with the cheap asphalt that is being used. These roads were repaved not too long ago.

In which year do you live? I just don't envision the mayor and the city councilpeople sitting in backrooms being coerced by the Big 3 or Big Oil not to take action or being told to have a fake interest in mass transit. I think our politicians are now too smart for that.

Ughh...I lost my original posting due to this stupid computer I'm on...

Oh, and I'm pretty sure M-1 is still on track to start construction later this year, if that's wrong please show me...

[esp1986]

In which year do you live? I just don't envision the mayor and the city councilpeople sitting in backrooms being coerced by the Big 3 or Big Oil not to take action or being told to have a fake interest in mass transit. I think our politicians are now too smart for that.

Ughh...I lost my original posting due to this stupid computer I'm on...

Oh, and I'm pretty sure M-1 is still on track to start construction later this year, if that's wrong please show me...

They are waiting on the legislative side of the bargain... the regional transit authority needs to be created before construction can start.

[iheartthed]

According to Robin Boyle, professor and chair of Wayne State University's urban studies and planning program, Detroit is dead if the light rail project doesn't happen:

Right now, Detroit has no central city. There is a “lack of competitiveness� and “social decay,� Boyle said. Plus, there is the general physical deterioration. Midtown – which includes WSU, the Detroit Institute of Arts, lots of new retail and some new housing – has youth, talent, a willingness to innovate and a potential for great population density.

This is where the “15X15� slogan comes in…the idea supported by the Hudson-Webber Foundation of having 15,000 Millennials living in Midtown [[or Greater Downtown Detroit) by 2015.
“Will we get there? I don't know,� Boyle said. “But it gives us a good slogan and a direction.�

The Foundation, WSU, DMC and HFHS have been meeting together for a while now to talk about stuff like this. This is an engaged group! They talk to each other! This has to happen to make Detroit work -- my words, but I think Boyle might agree. And everyone who knows about it needs to hold these organizations' so-called feet to the fire to keep the momentum going [[especially in light of the DMC getting new owners this year).

Other key players are the New Economy Initiative, the University Culture Center Area, U3 Ventures [[this really cool consulting firm that specializes in getting groups like this together), the College for Creative Studies, Tech Town and Next Energy. Oh, and that light-rail project known as M-1 will be essential to any Midtown success, Boyle added. [[Note to self: Get interviews with all of the above players to add to this discussion on the blog.)
M-1 is a essential component to this plan – this city – this state, Boyle noted.

“This will be incredibly important. Because if it doesn't come, let's roll up the carpet, guys,� Boyle said. “It's the glue that will unite us.�

http://detroit.blogs.time.com/2010/0...219/#more-4219

[rb336]

They are waiting on the legislative side of the bargain... the regional transit authority needs to be created before construction can start.

the legislation authorizing a not-for profit to run the rail was signed into law in Jan '09. I don't think there is any other required legilsation

[lincoln8740]

It would be beneficial to anyone anywhere to view this film with an open mind and maybe some open pockets to help fund an advanced transportation system.
!

"open your pocket" is all the suburbs hear when Detroit has another great idea.

[Caseyc]

Hopefully they will get this done. Cincinnati's city council yesterday authorized a bond issuance of $64 million for their streetcar line.
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/streetcar/

So far $86.5 million in funding has been obtained for the Cincinnati Streetcar, which is projected to cost $128 million to build six miles of track connecting Cincinnati’s riverfront with its downtown, historic Over-the-Rhine neighborhood and Uptown communities surrounding the University of Cincinnati. Expected next month is $25 million from the Federal Urban Circulator grant. A Federal TIGER II application goes in this summer from which an additional grant is anticipated. Private contributions [[slated as "last in") will make up the rest. They have been doing preliminary engineering work since last fall, and a project manager has been living here from Stacy & Witbeck. S&W, along with Parsons Brickerhoff, who built the NYC subway [[among thousands of other projects) will head up construction. They expect to break ground in the Fall.

We can have a race to complete. Any bets?

[bailey]

Hopefully they will get this done. Cincinnati's city council yesterday authorized a bond issuance of $64 million for their streetcar line.
http://www.cincinnati-oh.gov/noncms/projects/streetcar/

So far $86.5 million in funding has been obtained for the Cincinnati Streetcar, which is projected to cost $128 million to build six miles of track connecting Cincinnati’s riverfront with its downtown, historic Over-the-Rhine neighborhood and Uptown communities surrounding the University of Cincinnati. Expected next month is $25 million from the Federal Urban Circulator grant. A Federal TIGER II application goes in this summer from which an additional grant is anticipated. Private contributions [[slated as "last in") will make up the rest. They have been doing preliminary engineering work since last fall, and a project manager has been living here from Stacy & Witbeck. S&W, along with Parsons Brickerhoff, who built the NYC subway [[among thousands of other projects) will head up construction. They expect to break ground in the Fall.

We can have a race to complete. Any bets?

I would think that is the king of all sucker bets right there.

[ghettopalmetto]

Very interesting documentary. However, I don't think light rail will ever happen in Detroit. According to the documentary, manufacturing came first then the street car. There is no manufacturing or industry in Detroit right now for mass transit to follow. The cost is too great and few people in this region see that vision.

Where is it written that you have to be a soot-covered metropolis in order to build streetcars?

Streetcars cost too much, but a $1.5 billion expansion of 7 miles of I-94 is affordable. A $1.5 billion widening of I-75 in Oakland County is affordable. A zillion dollars for a convention center that gets used once a year is affordable.

For the price of the I-94 project, you could build a 100-mile streetcar network that could carry THOUSANDS more people, do it in far less space, decrease the need for useless parking lots, and boost land values, making more redevelopment projects feasible.

But hey, Detroit knows what it's doing. It's the rest of the world that's wrong.

[Caseyc]

I would think that is the king of all sucker bets right there.

ah...but the M1 is privately financed, no? Would seem to give one a leg up.

[Crumbled_pavement]

Where is it written that you have to be a soot-covered metropolis in order to build streetcars?

Streetcars cost too much, but a $1.5 billion expansion of 7 miles of I-94 is affordable. A $1.5 billion widening of I-75 in Oakland County is affordable. A zillion dollars for a convention center that gets used once a year is affordable.

For the price of the I-94 project, you could build a 100-mile streetcar network that could carry THOUSANDS more people, do it in far less space, decrease the need for useless parking lots, and boost land values, making more redevelopment projects feasible.

But hey, Detroit knows what it's doing. It's the rest of the world that's wrong.

Dude, I'm sold. Let me just look in my pocket and see if I have $1.5B to put in the coffers to get the ball rolling. Oh wait, I don't have it. Bad news then, looks like you're going to have to convince someone other than me. In fact, a whole lot of other people than me. Good luck with that. If it means anything, I agree mass transit would push this region forward. This area however is backwards. That's not exactly news though. This has been going on for 50 years and I don't think we will fix the issue in this thread. People that want mass transit and such move to other cities. You know why? Because they know as great of an idea as it might be, Detroit still lacks the political will to make it happen.

[Hypestyles]

there needs to be light rail, and improved, unified bus systems..