The BIrth of Freedom

[maxx]

This was shown today on Detroit Public TV. I don't know who paid for it, but it was a xtian approach to American history which, of course, only told a fraction of the story. It said the the term "dark ages" was a misnomer because of some inventions that occurred in those 800 or so years. One person talked about how the printing press led to an explosion of information being disseminated throughout Europe. She failed to mention what percentage of the population could read and that most works were written in Latin and Greek. The film tried to establish that xtians were responsible for all that is good about the U.S. without mentioning that most of the founding fathers were religiously skeptical deists. It talked about the xtian Wilberforce who worked to end the slave trade without mentioning all the xtians who were involved with the slave trade.
It was religious propaganda. I'd like to see the BBC production of "A Rough History of Disbelief" put on Detroit Public TV as a response.
http://www.ovguide.com/tv/atheism_a_..._disbelief.htm

[jiminnm]

I'd like to see the BBC production of "A Rough History of Disbelief" put on Detroit Public TV as a response.

I'd like to see an end to your anti-Christian rants.

[gnome]

Be kind Jim, Maxx is just one of those souls who demand that everyone thinks like he does...part of that long tradition of rigid liberalism.

[Retroit]

Considering all the other religions and non-religions that have existed throughout the world during America's history, I would have to say we are fortunate that it was the Christians who had the predominant influence upon our country.

[ghettopalmetto]

Considering all the other religions and non-religions that have existed throughout the world during America's history, I would have to say we are fortunate that it was the Christians who had the predominant influence upon our country.

You mean the people who were too uptight for Great Britain, or the kind souls who brought us the Temperance movement and Prohibition [[since we obviously have nothing else to worry about)? Or the 21st Century Evangelicals who insist that the Federal government legislate their "faith" upon the rest of the populace, and elect people like Jim DeMint to do their bidding?

I didn't watch the program, and Maxx doesn't want to hear this, but the educated classes in the Dark Ages--those who could read and write--were most often the clergy. It goes without saying that the clergy in the Middle Ages *were* the ones who disseminated information, purely by default. Without the clergy doing so, there would have been virtually ZERO dissemination.

[Retroit]

You mean the people who were too uptight for Great Britain, or the kind souls who brought us the Temperance movement and Prohibition [[since we obviously have nothing else to worry about)? Or the 21st Century Evangelicals who insist that the Federal government legislate their "faith" upon the rest of the populace, and elect people like Jim DeMint to do their bidding?

Would you have preferred Islam? How about voodoo or some other primitive tribal religion? Or, we could have been founded by atheists if you could have scoured the planet for enough of them to populate our land.

[Detroitej72]

This was shown today on Detroit Public TV.

It was religious propaganda.

Unless something is blatantly anti-religious, I suspect you would whine that it was propaganda.

You seem to be filled with much anger and hatred, why don't you crack open a beer and relax.

[rb336]

Considering all the other religions and non-religions that have existed throughout the world during America's history, I would have to say we are fortunate that it was the Christians who had the predominant influence upon our country.

even more fortunate that those most involved in our founding were either deists or only borderline in their xtian beliefs [["social" christians). as John Adams said, our system was not based in the bible, but in the common law handed down to us through the pagan [[pre-christian) traditions of England

[Detroitej72]

our system was not based in the bible, but in the common law handed down to us through the pagan [[pre-christian) traditions of England

I always thought it was modeled after the ancient Greek City-States, long before English traditions.

[ghettopalmetto]

It's funny how the Usual Gang of Right Wingers conveniently put away their copies of the Constitution when it comes to discussing the role of religion in our nation's political system. Before you know it, they'll also tell us that English is the official language of the United States.

You want to live in "a Christian nation"? Move to France or Poland, which were both founded explicitly on the premise of the Catholic faith.

[Retroit]

The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.
- John Adams


The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.
- John Adams

The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.
- John Adams

Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
- John Adams

I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.
- John Adams


The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.
- John Adams

[The Fourth of July] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.
- John Adams

As the safety and prosperity of nations ultimately and essentially depend on the protection and the blessing of Almighty God, and the national acknowledgment of this truth is not only an indispensable duty which the people owe to Him. - John Adams





"The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: 'It connected in one indissoluble bond the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity." President Adams, July 4, 1821

"The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were.... the general principles of Christianity."-- John Adams in letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."John Adams from his Oct. 13, 1789 address to the military. "Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there contained! Every member would be obliged in conscience to temperance, frugality and industry: to justice, kindness and charity towards his fellow men: and to piety, love and reverence toward Almighty God....What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be."John Adams diary entry Feb. 22., 1756.
"The Christian religion is, above all the Religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of Wisdom, Virtue, Equity, and Humanity. Let the Blackguard Paine say what he will; it is Resignation to God, it is Goodness itself to man." John Adams retorting to Thomas Paine in his diary, July 26, 1796.
"Statesmen, my dear Sir, may plan and speculate for liberty, but it is religion and morality alone, which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand. The only foundation of a free Constitution is pure virtue, and if this cannot be inspired into our People in a greater Measure than they have it now, they may change their rulers and the forms of government, but they will not obtain a lasting liberty." John Adams, The Works of John Adams, Second President of the United States, Charles Francis Adams, editor [[Boston: Little, Brown, 1854), Vol. IX, p. 401, dated June 21, 1776.
"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were . . . the general principles of Christianity." John Adams, in a letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 28, 1813, The Adams-Jefferson Letters,ed. Lester J. Cappon [[Chapel Hill, NC: University of North Carolina Press, 1959), vol 2, pp. 339-40.

[Retroit]

"Yesterday the greatest question was decided which ever was debated in America; and a greater perhaps never was, nor will be, decided among men. A resolution was passed without one dissenting colony, "that these United Colonies are, and of right ought to be, free and independent States." - Comment about the vote to declare independence form Britain, in a letter to Abigail Adams, July 3, 1776

"I am well aware of the Toil and Blood and Treasure, that it will cost Us to maintain this Declaration, and support and defend these States. Yet through all the Gloom I can see the Rays of ravishing Light and Glory. I can see that the End is more than worth all the Means. And that Posterity will triumph in that Days Transaction, even although We should rue it, which I trust in God We shall not." - Letter to Abigail Adams, July 3, 1776

"I am surprised at the suddenness as well as the greatness of this revolution... It is the will of Heaven that the two countries should be sundered forever. It may be the will of Heaven that America shall suffer calamities still more wasting, and distresses yet more dreadful. If this is to be the case it will have this good effect at least. It will inspire us with many virtues which we have not, and correct many errors, follies, and vices which threaten to disturb, dishonor, and destroy us. The furnace of affliction produces refinement in states as well as individuals. And the new Governments we are assuming in every part will require a purification from our vices, and an augmentation of our virtues, or they will be no blessings. The people will have unbounded power, and the people are extremely addicted to corruption and venality, as well as the great. But I must submit all my hopes and fears to an overruling Providence, in which, unfashionable as the faith may be, I firmly believe." - Letter to Abigail Adams, July 3, 1776

"I long for rural and domestic scenes, for the warbling of Birds and the Prattle of my Children. Don't you think I am somewhat poetical this morning, for one of my Years, and considering the Gravity, and Insipidity of my Employment? - As much as I converse with Sages and Heroes, they have very little of my Love or Admiration. I should prefer the Delights of a Garden to the Dominion of a World." - Letter to Abigail Adams, July 3, 1776

"A constitution founded on these principles introduces knowledge among the people, and inspires them with a conscious dignity becoming freemen; a general emulation takes place, which causes good humor, sociability, good manners, and good morals to be general. That elevation of sentiment inspired by such a government, makes the common people brave and enterprising. That ambition which is inspired by it makes them sober, industrious, and frugal." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"If there is a form of government, then, whose principle and foundation is virtue, will not every sober man acknowledge it better calculated to promote the general happiness than any other form?" - Thoughts on Government, 1776

[Retroit]

"Laws for the liberal education of the youth, especially of the lower class of the people, are so extremely wise and useful, that, to a humane and generous mind, no expense for this purpose would be thought extravagant." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"Upon this point all speculative politicians will agree, that the happiness of society is the end of government, as all divines and moral philosophers will agree that the happiness of the individual is the end of man. From this principle it will follow that the form of government which communicates ease, comfort, security, or, in one word, happiness, to the greatest numbers of persons, and in the greatest degree, is the best." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"Judges, therefore, should be always men of learning and experience in the laws, of exemplary morals, great patience, calmness, coolness, and attention. Their minds should not be distracted with jarring interests; they should not be dependent upon any man, or body of men." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"That, as a republic is the best of governments, so that particular arrangements of the powers of society, or, in other words, that form of government which is best contrived to secure an impartial and exact execution of the laws, is the best of republics." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"There is no good government but what is republican. That the only valuable part of the British constitution is so; for the true idea of a republic is "an empire of laws, and not of men." That, as a republic is the best of governments, so that particular arrangement of the powers of society, or in other words, that form of government which is best contrived to secure an impartial and exact execution of the law, is the best of republics." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"Fear is the foundation of most governments; but it is so sordid and brutal a passion, and renders men in whose breasts it predominates so stupid and miserable, that Americans will not be likely to approve of any political institution which is founded on it." - Thoughts on Government, 1776


Read on for more great
John Adams Quotes

"It is the duty of all men in society, publicly, and at stated seasons, to worship the SUPREME BEING, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping GOD in the manner most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience; or for his religious profession or sentiments; provided he doth not disturb the public peace, or obstruct others in their religious worship." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"Government is instituted for the common good; for the protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness of the people; and not for profit, honor, or private interest of any one man, family, or class of men; therefore, the people alone have an incontestable, unalienable, and indefeasible right to institute government; and to reform, alter, or totally change the same, when their protection, safety, prosperity, and happiness require it." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"The dignity and stability of government in all its branches, the morals of the people, and every blessing of society depend so much upon an upright and skillful administration of justice, that the judicial power ought to be distinct from both the legislative and executive, and independent upon both, that so it may be a check upon both, and both should be checks upon that." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"Fear is the foundation of most governments." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"It already appears, that there must be in every society of men superiors and inferiors, because God has laid in the constitution and course of nature the foundations of the distinction." - Thoughts on Government, 1776


Read on for more
John Adams Quotes

"Wisdom and knowledge, as well as virtue, diffused generally among the body of the people, being necessary for the preservation of their rights and liberties, and as these depend on spreading the opportunities and advantages of education in the various parts of the country, and among the different orders of people, it shall be the duty of legislators and magistrates... to cherish the interest of literature and the sciences, and all seminaries of them." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"We ought to consider what is the end of government before we determine which is the best form. Upon this point all speculative politicians will agree that the happiness of society is the end of government, as all divines and moral philosophers will agree that the happiness of the individual is the end of man... All sober inquirers after truth, ancient and modern, pagan and Christian, have declared that the happiness of man, as well as his dignity, consists in virtue." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"Each individual of the society has a right to be protected by it in the enjoyment of his life, liberty, and property, according to standing laws. He is obliged, consequently, to contribute his share to the expense of this protection; and to give his personal service, or an equivalent, when necessary. But no part of the property of any individual can, with justice, be taken from him, or applied to public uses, without his own consent, or that of the representative body of the people. In fine, the people of this commonwealth are not controllable by any other laws than those to which their constitutional representative body have given their consent." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"As good government is an empire of laws, how shall your laws be made? In a large society, inhabiting an extensive country, it is impossible that the whole should assemble to make laws. The first necessary step, then, is to depute power from the many to a few of the most wise and good." - Thoughts on Government, 1776

"The use of the Bible is so universal and its importance so great that your committee refers the above to the consideration of Congress, and if Congress shall not think it expedient to order the importation of types and paper, the Committee recommends that Congress will order the Committee of Commerce to import 20,000 Bibles from Holland, Scotland, or elsewhere, into the different parts of the States of the Union. Whereupon it was resolved accordingly to direct said Committee of Commerce to import 20,000 copies of the Bible." - On Committee to import bibles, September 11, 1777

"Let justice be done though the heavens should fall." - Letter to Elbridge Gerry, December 5, 1777

[Detroitej72]

You want to live in "a Christian nation"? Move to France or Poland, which were both founded explicitly on the premise of the Catholic faith.

In Poland, the Catholic faith is still well entrenched in the government and in people's lives, as Poland is over 90% Catholic. Having had a Pope who hailed from there, and who helped cause the collapse of the Soviet Union certainly helps.

France however has become increasingly secular since WWII. If anything, persons of the Muslim faith are the most devout there now. Look for future clashes between them and the government as they argue over policy, see the recent debate over women wearing the hijab.

[ghettopalmetto]

In Poland, the Catholic faith is still well entrenched in the government and in people's lives, as Poland is over 90% Catholic. Having had a Pope who hailed from there, and who helped cause the collapse of the Soviet Union certainly helps.

Huh. And here, I thought it was St. Ronald of Reagan who single-handedly brought down the Soviet Union.

[Detroitej72]

Huh. And here, I thought it was St. Ronald of Reagan who single-handedly brought down the Soviet Union.

That's what the wing nuts want folks to believe.

[[P.S. you have my nomination for funniest post of the day!)

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "You want to live in "a Christian nation"? Move to France or Poland, which were both founded explicitly on the premise of the Catholic faith."

Quote: "This was shown today on Detroit Public TV. I don't know who paid for it, but it was a xtian approach to American history"

What a treat these two must be.... oy I would bet anything they both have claimed to be wicca at some point in their lives. Normal human beings do not harbor that much hatred for any other faith. Believer or not.

[maxx]

Be kind Jim, Maxx is just one of those souls who demand that everyone thinks like he does...part of that long tradition of rigid liberalism.

Anyone who doesn't want others to think the way s/he does, doesn't really have strong opinions. They are wishy-washy fence-sitters.

[maxx]

I didn't watch the program, and Maxx doesn't want to hear this, but the educated classes in the Dark Ages--those who could read and write--were most often the clergy. It goes without saying that the clergy in the Middle Ages *were* the ones who disseminated information, purely by default. Without the clergy doing so, there would have been virtually ZERO dissemination.

maxx: I am aware that the clergy were the educated class. So who decided that all important documents had to be written in Latin and Greek? Clerical education was pretty limited to religion and whatever else benefited the church or monastery. I don't recall hearing that the clergy disseminated information on Copernicus or Gallileo. Latin was the secret language of the ruling class in medieval times. It helped keep the ignorant masses ignorant.

[maxx]

The Declaration of Independence laid the cornerstone of human government upon the first precepts of Christianity.
- John Adams

There's no mention of Jesus Christ in the Dec. of In.

When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

Nature's God. Very deist.

[maxx]

"Let justice be done though the heavens should fall." - Letter to Elbridge Gerry, December 5, 1777

Evidently Gerry believed as the Bible says that the heavens were solid and would one day fall down upon the earth.

[maxx]

Quote: "You want to live in "a Christian nation"? Move to France or Poland, which were both founded explicitly on the premise of the Catholic faith."

Quote: "This was shown today on Detroit Public TV. I don't know who paid for it, but it was a xtian approach to American history"

What a treat these two must be.... oy I would bet anything they both have claimed to be wicca at some point in their lives. Normal human beings do not harbor that much hatred for any other faith. Believer or not.

Calling a one-sided approach to American history propaganda is not an attack on religion unless that religion has propaganda as part of its agenda. So now you are trying to say I'm a witch? LOL! You go in for witch burnings, do you, Sstash? You dark ages mind. You are a perfect example of what damage religion can do to the human mind.

[maxx]

Huh. And here, I thought it was St. Ronald of Reagan who single-handedly brought down the Soviet Union.

I thought it was the union movement, Solidarity.

[maxx]

The highest glory of the American Revolution was this: it connected, in one indissoluble bond, the principles of civil government with the principles of Christianity.
- John Adams

The principles of ancient Greek democracy were also a part of the American government including the holding of slaves.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "They are wishy-washy fence-sitters."

Or as the sane among us refer to it "Open-mindedness"