Enforcing Immigration Law is "a violation of civil rights"

[Papasito]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36778647...cs-white_house
Enforcing Immigration Law is "a violation of civil rights"

The legislation requires police to question people about their immigration status — including asking for identification — if they suspect someone is in the country illegally.
...
Gov. Jan Brewer, who signed the measure Friday, has ordered state officials to develop a training course for officers to learn what constitutes reasonable suspicion someone is in the U.S. illegally.
...
The new law makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally.

"The new law makes it a crime under state law to be in the country illegally."
Really? It wasn't prior?

"in the country illegally"
key word: "illegal"

[Papasito]

The Arizona immigration bill is an affront to the civil rights of all Americans and an attempt to legalize racial profiling,"

- Reverend Al Sharptpon

"When I heard about it, it reminded me of Nazi Germany"...""It reminded me of South African apartheid."

- Lillian RodrÃ[guez López, president of the Hispanic Federation

[Ray1936]

"When I heard about it, it sounded like a darn good idea!"

--Ray 1936, who can't get into a local nursery without being surrounded by illegals.

[Detroitnerd]

GOSH, if we really didn't want to be overrun with Mexican campesinos, maybe we shouldn't have decimated the Mexican corn industry by dumping subsidized American corn on the market. All their farms were no longer profitable, they needed work, so they came where the work is. I suppose we can thank all our friends at ADM, the USDA, Monsanto, Smithfield and Cargill.

[oldredfordette]

It's an awesome idea. We've needed a police state in this country and now we have it! Hoooray! Fuck that friggin freedom, we weren't really using it.

If you were innocent, you wouldn't be brown.

I hear the DOJ is on the job, not a moment too soon.

[Detroitnerd]

Ah, yes. Enforcing the law. That sounds rational. But not all laws are good. Some are downright destructive. You might wonder why I say that, but instead of raving on, I'll just cut-and-past part of the speech Olbermann gave on Citizens United.

On the cold morning of Friday, March 6th, 1857, a very old man who was born just eight months and thirteen days after the Declaration of Independence was adopted; a man who was married to the sister of the man who wrote "The Star Spangled Banner;" a man who was enlightened enough to have freed his own slaves and given pensions to the ones who had become too old to work read aloud, in a reed-thin voice, a very long document.
In it, he ruled on a legal case involving a slave, brought by his owner to live in a free state; yet to remain a slave.
The slave sought his freedom, and sued. And looking back over legal precedent, and the Constitution, and the America in which it was created, this judge ruled that no black man could ever be considered an actual citizen of the United States.
"They had for more than a century before been, regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far unfit, that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect."
The case, of course, was Dred Scott. The old man was the fifth Chief Justice of the United States of America, Roger Brooke Tawney. And the outcome, he believed, would be to remove the burning question of the abolition of slavery from the political arena for once and for all.
The outcome, in fact, was the Civil War. No American ever made a single bigger misjudgment. No American ever carried the responsibility for the deaths and suffering of more Americans. No American ever was more quickly vilified. Within four years Chief Justice Tawney's rulings were being ignored in the South and the North.
Within five, President Lincoln at minimum contemplated arresting him. Within seven, he died, in poverty, while still Chief Justice. Within eight, Congress had voted to not place a bust of him alongside those of the other former Chief Justices.

[gibran]

I found an interesting perspective from a guy talking about his publishing house..[[wish I could have remembered his name..so i will try to capture this).... When European immigrants came to this country [[any way they could...some legally an dsom enot so)...they were poor but the best...worked hard and took care of their families...they were given jobs no one really wanted and were happy working in a variety of conditions..many became productive citizens and contributed to our country...they were jewish and catholic and lived in their ethnic ghettos..but becuase it was easier at the time to become citizens they did.. wow sounds vaguely familiar...

[barnesfoto]

What's the matter with those people? Why would they flee countries with lower taxes, no welfare, weak unions and no socialized health care?
How can they leave countries that ban abortions!?

Why surely if them beaners read the WSJ edtiorial page, they would understand that lower minimum wages CREATE jobs! And Mexico has been run by neocons and conservatives for decades!

And they don't have socialized police protection either, if you are a loser with no money you get no police protection, period! None of this Obama justice for all shit!

I'm shocked that our conservocrite friends in Arizona don't want to return their state to the country that it was stolen from, as surely they recognize the success of conservative economic and social policies in Mexico! Why there's one guy there who's the richest man in the world and those of us who have spent time their know an awesome secret:

Their elite are eliter than our elite!

Finally, I'm breathless that Ray has mentioned that he's surrounded by people asking for jobs
After thousands of posts by folks who never leave their dull suburbs sitting on their asses [[occasionally getting up to stuff their faces with food products processed by illegal immigrants) telling us that them illegals is looking for handouts, Ray has the nerve to reveal to us that "they" are looking for work?

[Stosh]

Ah, yes. Enforcing the law. That sounds rational. But not all laws are good. Some are downright destructive. You might wonder why I say that, but instead of raving on, I'll just cut-and-past part of the speech Olbermann gave on Citizens United.

On the cold morning of Friday, March 6th, 1857, a very old man who was born just eight months and thirteen days after the Declaration of Independence was adopted; a man who was married to the sister of the man who wrote "The Star Spangled Banner;" a man who was enlightened enough to have freed his own slaves and given pensions to the ones who had become too old to work read aloud, in a reed-thin voice, a very long document.
In it, he ruled on a legal case involving a slave, brought by his owner to live in a free state; yet to remain a slave.
The slave sought his freedom, and sued. And looking back over legal precedent, and the Constitution, and the America in which it was created, this judge ruled that no black man could ever be considered an actual citizen of the United States.
"They had for more than a century before been, regarded as beings of an inferior order, and altogether unfit to associate with the white race, either in social or political relations, and so far unfit, that they had no rights which the white man was bound to respect."
The case, of course, was Dred Scott. The old man was the fifth Chief Justice of the United States of America, Roger Brooke Tawney. And the outcome, he believed, would be to remove the burning question of the abolition of slavery from the political arena for once and for all.
The outcome, in fact, was the Civil War. No American ever made a single bigger misjudgment. No American ever carried the responsibility for the deaths and suffering of more Americans. No American ever was more quickly vilified. Within four years Chief Justice Tawney's rulings were being ignored in the South and the North.
Within five, President Lincoln at minimum contemplated arresting him. Within seven, he died, in poverty, while still Chief Justice. Within eight, Congress had voted to not place a bust of him alongside those of the other former Chief Justices.

A fine quote this is. Quite relevant in a way. There needs to be a national law of some semblance of order, though. Really, we can't take everyone without jobs for them. That ship has sailed, unless we decide to really stick it to the Chinese at some point.

[firstandten]

I'm guessing that this law is for show and that the lawmakers in Arizona know it will probably be declared unconstitutional once it is appealed. They can tell there folks that at least they tried to do something but the courts struck it down.

[Papasito]

When European immigrants ......worked hard and took care of their families...they were given jobs no one really wanted and were happy working in a variety of conditions..many became productive citizens and contributed to our country...they were jewish and catholic and lived in their ethnic ghettos....

...except for 1 minor difference.... the majority of immigrants of previous generations came in legally

If you were innocent, you wouldn't be brown.

Al Sharpton [[the race baiter) equating illegal immigrants to black America's past is a downright insult to African Americans. The illegal immigrants made a voluntary decision to illegally enter the United States,
they were not brought into this country bound in chains against thier will.

[oladub]

...except for 1 minor difference.... the majority of immigrants of previous generations came in legally

Al Sharpton [[the race baiter) equating illegal immigrants to black America's past is a downright insult to African Americans. The illegal immigrants made a voluntary decision to illegally enter the United States,
they were not brought into this country bound in chains against thier will.

The article and even Papasito have used the term 'illegal immigrants' instead of the usually more correct teem 'illegal aliens'. 'Aliens' is a legal term meaning, in this case, non-citizens. 'Immigrant' is a fuzzier term presumably referring to the desire of many illegal aliens which does not apply to all illegal aliens and does not necessarily proceed from government policy. Some of the 9/11 bombers, for instance, were illegal aliens who never had the intention of being immigrants except, perhaps, to heaven. Some illegal aliens come here temporarily just to make money to take back home.

Congress has failed to protect this country from this generally peaceful invasion and has failed to institute uniform naturalization allowing, instead, a two track system of citizenship with Obama only proposing to repeat the failed Reagan legislation.

Federal law already requires legal aliens to carry their green cards all the time. Under federal law, illegal aliens are already committing misdemeanors or crimes. Most court rulings allow and certainly do not discourage the cooperation of local law enforcement in helping enforce federal laws. From what I have read, every attempt was made in writing this bill to duplicate unenforced federal law so that it would not be ruled unconstitutional. If it is unconstitutional, so is federal law.

Having said that, because so many illegal aliens in Arizona are Latinos, it is going to be a touchy not offending Latino citizens. If someone is caught violating a law, however, and they can't even speak English, it would seem reasonable to question their citizenship. Perhaps it will be the application of this law, rather than the intent of this law, will be ruled unconstitutional.

A better way to address the illegal alien problem would have been to require proof of citizenship whenever Arizona residents interact with Arizona public services such as obtaining driver's licenses, enrolling kids in school, or non-emergency medical care. My kids had to have a copy of their original birth certificate to enroll in our small Mid-west school district with very few Hispanics. That sort of screening would screen all residents and not just Latinos.

A second sure fire way of reducing this problem would be to heavily fine employers employing illegal aliens . A second occurrence, and the employer goes to jail. U.S. Presidents and Congress should be looking out for their own citizens especially in times of high unemployment. Temporary work visas could be issued when there are spot labor shortages here but this nonsense about encouraging US jobs to be sent overseas while tolerating a massive immigration of illegal aliens to vie for the remaining jobs does not allow US workers to demand a larger share of the economic pie. Bush, Obama, and Congress have not only been negligent in the performance of their jobs, they have been detrimental to US workers and our economy.

[Sstashmoo]

This is what the media is not reporting and what prompted Arizona to pass this law.

""
Cochise County Rancher Murdered

Posted by Jimmy Boegle on Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:11 PM

Leo W. Banks, who has been covering border issues for years, brings us news that Rob Krentz was killed yesterday in the Chiricahua Corridor.
Leo—who has written about the Krentz family before [[see here)—says:
Cochise County rancher Rob Krentz was shot and killed on his ranch some time Saturday, presumably by a drug smuggler.
The death, which being investigated as a homicide, occurred in the San Bernardino Valley, part of the Malpais region. The event has rocked the towns of Douglas and Portal, and the ranches in between, both of which have been under siege by cross-border smugglers for years.
As the Weekly has reported, the situation in the so-called Chiricahua Corridor has deteriorated lately, leaving residents fearful that an episode of this kind was inevitable. The grief is great for the Krentz family and their many friends throughout Southeast Arizona; Krentzes have been ranching in Cochise County for more than a century.

The Weekly has received word that a representative for Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords has placed calls to Cochise County, trying to set up a community meeting, either Monday or Tuesday at 11 a.m., possibly at the Apache School. The Giffords' rep making the arrangements said it is possible she will ask the president to place military units in the besieged area

A source tells the Weekly the practical impact of Giffords' actions might be small, but at least she is paying attention. The source said, "Kolbe laughed at us when we complained, and McCain worries about getting his patent leather shoes dirty when he's down here.""

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange...ncher-murdered

Another article:

Rancher's murder fuels firestorm

Border-policy critics blame immigrant, demand security

by Dennis Wagner - Mar. 30, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
The unsolved murder Saturday of a soft-spoken rancher in southern Arizona erupted as a new flashpoint in the debate over illegal immigration
, with conservative media and politicians demanding increased border security.
Less than two days after authorities found the body of 58-year-old Robert Krentz, political bloggers and talk-show hosts began denouncing the federal government
for a perceived failure to protect U.S. citizens from violent smugglers and other illegal border crossers.

Cochise County sheriff's spokeswoman Carol Capas said detectives have no information on the lone gunman who shot Krentz, not even a nationality.
However, after deputies and U.S. Border Patrol agents tracked footprints from the crime scene nearly 20 miles to the Mexican line, border-policy critics concluded that the killer must be an illegal immigrant

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...330krentz.html

[Papasito]

A better way to address the illegal alien problem would have been to require proof of citizenship whenever Arizona residents interact with Arizona public services such as obtaining driver's licenses, enrolling kids in school, or non-emergency medical care. My kids had to have a copy of their original birth certificate to enroll in our small Mid-west school district with very few Hispanics. That sort of screening would screen all residents and not just Latinos.

When you get pulled over, what does the officer say?
"Liscence and registration, and insurance card, please?"
Now you can only asks whites and Native Americans for thier documentation in fear it will offend?

The only thing that is freaking out the illegal front groups is the fact that Arizona has passed a bill to enforce Federal laws that already exist. There is nothing unconstitutional about the Arizona bill. The only issue the Fed has with this is that the race groups they pander to are irked.

It's not an Obama thing, Presidents going to Reagan and Carter have all failed on immigration.

I heard on NPR last night that illegal alien prisoners currently in Arizona prisons will cost taxpayers 10 billion dollars over the next five years, and there are some 500,000 "known" illegals in the state right now. If this is not a drain on an economy, I don't know what is.

The government has failed to act for decades on this issue.
I have always thought it was in part to the New World Order - erode the United States sovereignty conspiracy. Well, that and politicians pandering to the influx of illegals in order to bribe them for thier potential votes....

[Diehard]

This is what the media is not reporting and what prompted Arizona to pass this law.

""
Cochise County Rancher Murdered

Posted by Jimmy Boegle on Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:11 PM

Leo W. Banks, who has been covering border issues for years, brings us news that Rob Krentz was killed yesterday in the Chiricahua Corridor.
Leo—who has written about the Krentz family before [[see here)—says:
Cochise County rancher Rob Krentz was shot and killed on his ranch some time Saturday, presumably by a drug smuggler.
The death, which being investigated as a homicide, occurred in the San Bernardino Valley, part of the Malpais region. The event has rocked the towns of Douglas and Portal, and the ranches in between, both of which have been under siege by cross-border smugglers for years.
As the Weekly has reported, the situation in the so-called Chiricahua Corridor has deteriorated lately, leaving residents fearful that an episode of this kind was inevitable. The grief is great for the Krentz family and their many friends throughout Southeast Arizona; Krentzes have been ranching in Cochise County for more than a century.

The Weekly has received word that a representative for Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords has placed calls to Cochise County, trying to set up a community meeting, either Monday or Tuesday at 11 a.m., possibly at the Apache School. The Giffords' rep making the arrangements said it is possible she will ask the president to place military units in the besieged area

A source tells the Weekly the practical impact of Giffords' actions might be small, but at least she is paying attention. The source said, "Kolbe laughed at us when we complained, and McCain worries about getting his patent leather shoes dirty when he's down here.""

http://www.tucsonweekly.com/TheRange...ncher-murdered

Another article:

Rancher's murder fuels firestorm

Border-policy critics blame immigrant, demand security

by Dennis Wagner - Mar. 30, 2010 12:00 AM
The Arizona Republic
The unsolved murder Saturday of a soft-spoken rancher in southern Arizona erupted as a new flashpoint in the debate over illegal immigration
, with conservative media and politicians demanding increased border security.
Less than two days after authorities found the body of 58-year-old Robert Krentz, political bloggers and talk-show hosts began denouncing the federal government
for a perceived failure to protect U.S. citizens from violent smugglers and other illegal border crossers.

Cochise County sheriff's spokeswoman Carol Capas said detectives have no information on the lone gunman who shot Krentz, not even a nationality.
However, after deputies and U.S. Border Patrol agents tracked footprints from the crime scene nearly 20 miles to the Mexican line, border-policy critics concluded that the killer must be an illegal immigrant

http://www.azcentral.com/news/articl...330krentz.html

Funny how you say "the media is not reporting" and then proceed to do a cut and paste from two big-city newspapers.
I think we'll translate that as "I don't understand why most sane, thinking people have not seized upon this tragedy to demonize all Mexicans and block them from our country."

[Diehard]

When you get pulled over, what does the officer say?
"Liscence and registration, and insurance card, please?"
Now you can only asks whites and Native Americans for thier documentation in fear it will offend?

Where does it say that? Does that apply to black men driving in Grosse Pointe as well?

The only thing that is freaking out the illegal front groups is the fact that Arizona has passed a bill to enforce Federal laws that already exist.

Which is why this is a job for the federal government, not Arizona all by itself. Granted, the feds have done a piss-poor job of it.

There is nothing unconstitutional about the Arizona bill.

The "guilty until proven innocent" aspect might be.

The only issue the Fed has with this is that the race groups they pander to are irked.

Except that illegals can't vote. Could it be the groups they're pandering to are actually the business owners who like cheap labor?

It's not an Obama thing, Presidents going to Reagan and Carter have all failed on immigration.

True dat. It's a complicated issue that's not going to be solved by oversimplification and stereotyping.

I heard on NPR last night that illegal alien prisoners currently in Arizona prisons will cost taxpayers 10 billion dollars over the next five years, and there are some 500,000 "known" illegals in the state right now. If this is not a drain on an economy, I don't know what is.

How much of a drain would it be if all illegals were deported and Arizona's factories, farms, and regular folks hiring nannies and landscapers had to start paying "American" union-level wages?

The government has failed to act for decades on this issue.
I have always thought it was in part to the New World Order - erode the United States sovereignty conspiracy. Well, that and politicians pandering to the influx of illegals in order to bribe them for thier potential votes....

Potential? When? How long [[and how expensive) is the legalization and naturalization process? That's what we should be fixing here.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Funny how you say "the media is not reporting" and then proceed to do a cut and paste from two big-city newspapers."

Ok, Mainstream media. better?

I was simply pointing out there is an event that prompted this new law, and the major media outlets are not mentioning it, the ones I've read anyway. They are fed up and I can't say I blame them. Look for other states to follow suit as our economy worsens.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "The "guilty until proven innocent" aspect might be."

We're all subject to this. If you're walking down the street and fit the description of a suspect, you'll be questioned because of how you look, now do not respond to the officers questions, see where you wind up.

What Arizona is trying to do is not a new concept here in the US.

Quote: "Potential? When? How long [[and how expensive) is the legalization and naturalization process? That's what we should be fixing here. "

Why, our unemployment rate is near 20% in real numbers, why should we be making it easier for people to come here and be further liability on our social systems? There's no jobs here, not sure if you're aware of that.

Also, everyone wants to go after the employers. Why? Do you think employers have some DNA analysis equipment on hand. If a man walks in with an SS card, an employer has no way of determining if they are legitimate or not. If they are using an active social security number and the name is the same, there is virtually no way to connect the two. Two W2's reported to the state? One man has two jobs? To go after employers and prosecute them in any way would mean a much tighter system of information collection and tracking, in short, you'd have your police state. Otherwise, the employer would never be prosecuted, too many holes in our present system.

[carolcb]

Hey, all I know is that the few times I was in Reynosa I saw more amputees and bad scars than I have ever seen in this country. I would not want to live there. You wouldnt either.

Provide proper paperwork - based on what?

[Papasito]

Does that apply to black men driving in Grosse Pointe as well?

anyone who gets pulled over should provide the proper paperwork reguardless of what color you are.

How much of a drain would it be if all illegals were deported and Arizona's factories, farms, and regular folks hiring nannies and landscapers had to start paying "American" union-level wages?

at near 10% unemployment, there has to be someone who wants to work.
and if we have to pay a little more for lettuce and tomatoes, so be it.

Which is why this is a job for the federal government, not Arizona all by itself. Granted, the feds have done a piss-poor job of it

Arizona should really be getting praised for doing what the Fed can't [[or won't) do.

Except that illegals can't vote.

Politicians see people in blocks of color. Pander to the NAACP, get the black vote. Pander to Latino groups, get the Latino vote, ect. ect.

What politicians DONT realize is that they are slapping legal immigrants in the face by giving illegals a pass. Why go through all the trouble of immigrating legally when you could just come in illegally then pull the victim card and demand your citizenship?

How long [[and how expensive) is the legalization and naturalization process? That's what we should be fixing here.

I totally agree. Citizenship/Immigration needs to be attainable and it needs to be fair.
The system needs fixing.

[rb336]

Illegal Immigration will never change until we remove the demand for it. Jack the fines to companies hiring undocumenteds to $25,000 per worker for a first violation, double it for the second, and seize all company assets on the third.

then set up a real job bank within the welfare system, require that employers hire through that FIRST, and if they still can't find people, they can apply for temporary workers. the temp. workers would have to obtain a license BEFORE entering the country, the companies hiring them would pay a fee for each hired temporary worker - and be required to provide decent dormitories for them.

[Diehard]

Quote: "Funny how you say "the media is not reporting" and then proceed to do a cut and paste from two big-city newspapers."
Ok, Mainstream media. better?

Are you saying regional newspapers aren't "mainstream?" Here's a google search that turns up coverage of the murder by Salt Lake Tribune, ABC News, Los Angeles Times, BBC News, The Associated Press and of course a whole lot from Fox News. Do you make it a point to see a big media conspiracy in everything?
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&t...a&start=0&sa=N

I was simply pointing out there is an event that prompted this new law, and the major media outlets are not mentioning it, the ones I've read anyway.

Apparently you're not reading enough, and this law is very misguided as a response to a murder.

They are fed up and I can't say I blame them.

Of course they're fed up, but murder and drug smuggling are already illegal, as is sneaking across the border. How would the new law have prevented this?

Look for other states to follow suit as our economy worsens.

You've hit on something that seems to be overlooked- it's an economic issue as much as a political one. No amount of chest-thumping and political posturing will stem the desire of people to make a better life for themselves. You want to fix this? Fix the legal immigration process so it's more accessible, and on the long-term, fix Mexico's economy so these folks have a chance without risking their lives trying to feed their families. Maybe even rethink the drug laws to eliminate the incentive for smugglers. But this law does none of that.

[Papasito]

Sure, our immigration laws kinda stink, but can we look at another country's complicated laws and say "well those laws are too complicated, so they should just pardon everyone who broke them, and then reward them with the end result of why they broke the law in the first place" .... and it be fair and just? That's basically what the amnesty crowd is wanting us to do.

[Diehard]

Quote: "The "guilty until proven innocent" aspect might be."

We're all subject to this. If you're walking down the street and fit the description of a suspect, you'll be questioned because of how you look, now do not respond to the officers questions, see where you wind up.

Yes, so you answer their questions, and let them know it wasn't you who robbed the bank, duh. Funny how you and the Tea Party types don't see this as an infringement on their freedom to be left alone and not harrassed for what they look like.

Quote: "Potential? When? How long [[and how expensive) is the legalization and naturalization process? That's what we should be fixing here. "
Why, our unemployment rate is near 20% in real numbers, why should we be making it easier for people to come here and be further liability on our social systems? There's no jobs here, not sure if you're aware of that.

Apparently there's still more opportunity here than in Mexico, or this wouldn't be an issue. And what myopic, short-sighted thinking. Do you think our permanent immigration policy should fluctuate according to the economy and the prevailing political climate? Close the borders whenever unemployment's high and open them when there's a need for cheap labor? It's no longer "give me your tired, your poor" but "people are nothing but commodities"?

Also, everyone wants to go after the employers. Why? Do you think employers have some DNA analysis equipment on hand. If a man walks in with an SS card, an employer has no way of determining if they are legitimate or not. If they are using an active social security number and the name is the same, there is virtually no way to connect the two. Two W2's reported to the state? One man has two jobs? To go after employers and prosecute them in any way would mean a much tighter system of information collection and tracking, in short, you'd have your police state. Otherwise, the employer would never be prosecuted, too many holes in our present system.

Those poor, defenseless employers paying their workers less than minimum wage know damn well when they've hired illegals. Your "police state" is coming to Arizona, and the target is on the people, not the businesses exploiting them.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Illegal Immigration will never change until we remove the demand for it. Jack the fines to companies hiring undocumenteds to $25,000 per worker for a first violation, double it for the second, and seize all company assets on the third."

then set up a real job bank within the welfare system, require that employers hire through that FIRST, and if they still can't find people, they can apply for temporary workers. the temp. workers would have to obtain a license BEFORE entering the country, the companies hiring them would pay a fee for each hired temporary worker - and be required to provide decent dormitories for them."

Now I know you're just F'ing around.. Nobody could actually mean any of that.