Construction on Woodward, Light Rail?

**tahleel** · April-19-10, 11:49 AM

As a New Center resident, I've noticed quite a bit of construction on Woodward. It starts near Grand Blvd and stretches beyond the Boston-Edison district. The road has been barreled off for a week or two. I've noticed they milled the asphalt that is southbound. Any idea what it is? Just regular road maintenance? Or is it preparation for the proposed light rail?

-Tahleel

**Detroitnerd** · April-19-10, 11:53 AM

It's the second approach for Matty Moroun's new bridge.

**Detroit Stylin** · April-19-10, 12:06 PM

No at that point of the route it would be center aligned....

**DetroitPlanner** · April-19-10, 02:13 PM

The project on Woodward is a heavy rehab with some reconstruction to prepare the roadbed for rail lines. There is also a stretch from I-94 to Euclid where there will be additional streetscape amenities for the pedestrians and passengers.

**Detroit Stylin** · April-21-10, 03:14 PM

So my question is this....since at least Woodward once had street cars going down the middle in that area like they are planning to do again, shouldnt the road bed already be ready? I mean its not like they broke it up to resurfce it.

**Russix** · April-21-10, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

So my question is this....since at least Woodward once had street cars going down the middle in that area like they are planning to do again, shouldnt the road bed already be ready? I mean its not like they broke it up to resurfce it.

Theoretically yes, but every time they have ripped up parts for undergroud repairs, it can be assumed that this roadbed was not restored. Also the great wizards at M1 Inc do not prefer to operate this line as a regional LRT in the middle of the street but as a local circulator/people mover/fancy bus one lane from the curb, where no previous roadbed ever existed[[for good reason too!)

**Detroit Stylin** · April-21-10, 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Russix

Theoretically yes, but every time they have ripped up parts for undergroud repairs, it can be assumed that this roadbed was not restored. Also the great wizards at M1 Inc do not prefer to operate this line as a regional LRT in the middle of the street but as a local circulator/people mover/fancy bus one lane from the curb, where no previous roadbed ever existed[[for good reason too!)

I can see the area between the Blvd and Hart Plaza...but I mean the area north of the Blvd on northwards. That segment is supposed to be aligned in the center...

**Russix** · April-21-10, 06:27 PM

Originally Posted by Detroit Stylin

I can see the area between the Blvd and Hart Plaza...but I mean the area north of the Blvd on northwards. That segment is supposed to be aligned in the center...

Once the M1 Rail portion is complete, there will probably be another study to evaluate if it's worth it to build the high-speed portion north of Grand Blvd. The original DTOGS plan was slated to make the run from 8 mile to downtown in less than 30 minutes. Moving at top efficiency it was something like 23 minutes. To give M1 Rail a fair evaluation, lets say it moves at least at bus speed[[I believe less than this based on Portlandâ€™s Streetcar system 6mph avg.). Now your looking at a study that will investigate if itâ€™s worth it to spend the remaining 250 million[[in 2007 dollars) of public money on the hybrid design that will shave off 10 minutes from what the 53 Woodward bus does. Good luck with that!!

**dtowncitylover** · April-21-10, 06:47 PM

The great misinformation: this is light rail NOT a streetcar.

**Detroit Stylin** · April-22-10, 05:41 PM

ummmmm I KNOW THIS. I was simply asking if there was a road bed that supported a streetcar before then why should they have to reinvent the wheel fo it to suppot light rail? I never claimed to be a tranmportation engineer that is why i am asking the dang question.....

Retroit · April-22-10, 06:39 PM

I'm not an expert myself, but I would assume that since any railroad requires continuous maintenance to keep it safe, that these rail beds being over 100 years old [[?) would be due for a major overhaul or replacement anyway.

I don't know what the original beds were constructed out of. If wood, it would be rotted. If brick, there would be many that need to be replaced. If concrete, we know what happens to that over time from salt, freezing, and heavy loads. So what ever it is, it is probably in bad shape. Also, I think light rail cars are heavier than streetcars.

**Gsgeorge** · April-22-10, 07:04 PM

The work being done north of Grand Boulevard is a resurfacing project. It is not connected to the light rail.

Phase one of the M1 Light Rail would involve a total reconstruction of the Woodward road surface, everything from sidewalks to the street & the light rail lines. It is called something like a 25-50 year fix, putting utilities underground and rebuilding from the bottom-up to maximize on the investment and minimize on future repairs and resurfacing for the next few decades.

Retroit · April-22-10, 07:29 PM

So the work being done now is all going to be torn up soon for the light rail?

**innercitydoc** · April-22-10, 09:35 PM

The new light rail transit center is being constructed as we speak next to the former Dagleish Cadillac dealership on Woodward. A program airing right now on PBS called Blueprint America: Motor City just confirmed this.

**Gsgeorge** · April-23-10, 12:49 AM

Originally Posted by Retroit

So the work being done now is all going to be torn up soon for the light rail?

Yes, but work won't start on the portion north of Grand Blvd until 2014 at the earliest, if at all. It's part of the ARRA funding. It is probably from a proposal that's been on the table since the '90s and just went through now. Forward thinking folks, this MDOT bunch...

**SpartanTom** · April-23-10, 01:01 AM

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

The work being done north of Grand Boulevard is a resurfacing project. It is not connected to the light rail.

Phase one of the M1 Light Rail would involve a total reconstruction of the Woodward road surface, everything from sidewalks to the street & the light rail lines. It is called something like a 25-50 year fix, putting utilities underground and rebuilding from the bottom-up to maximize on the investment and minimize on future repairs and resurfacing for the next few decades.

IIRC it is a 20 year "fix". I don't think you see many roadways lasting past that without needing major repairs. Certainly not 50 years. The utilities underneath will probably last longer though.

**casscorridor** · April-23-10, 02:17 AM

Originally Posted by innercitydoc

The new light rail transit center is being constructed as we speak next to the former Dagleish Cadillac dealership on Woodward. A program airing right now on PBS called Blueprint America: Motor City just confirmed this.

I'll have to investigate this myself

DetroitDad · April-23-10, 02:47 AM

Originally Posted by casscorridor

I'll have to investigate this myself

Take some pictures!

**Detroit Stylin** · April-23-10, 04:39 AM

Originally Posted by Retroit

I'm not an expert myself, but I would assume that since any railroad requires continuous maintenance to keep it safe, that these rail beds being over 100 years old [[?) would be due for a major overhaul or replacement anyway.

I don't know what the original beds were constructed out of. If wood, it would be rotted. If brick, there would be many that need to be replaced. If concrete, we know what happens to that over time from salt, freezing, and heavy loads. So what ever it is, it is probably in bad shape. Also, I think light rail cars are heavier than streetcars.

Thank you. Thats the type of answer I was trying to get....

**DetroitPlanner** · April-23-10, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Gsgeorge

The work being done north of Grand Boulevard is a resurfacing project. It is not connected to the light rail.

Phase one of the M1 Light Rail would involve a total reconstruction of the Woodward road surface, everything from sidewalks to the street & the light rail lines. It is called something like a 25-50 year fix, putting utilities underground and rebuilding from the bottom-up to maximize on the investment and minimize on future repairs and resurfacing for the next few decades.

We must be talking about a different project then. LINK

**Hermod** · April-23-10, 11:18 AM

Originally Posted by dtowncitylover

The great misinformation: this is light rail NOT a streetcar.

Would you kindly explain the difference between "light rail" and a "street car"?

I thought that i was pretty well versed in railroad and streetcar technology, but there are apparently "nuances" which are not discernible to me.

**Detroitnerd** · April-23-10, 11:31 AM

I think streetcars have been consigned to the category formerly known as "heritage streetcar," which may not have the speed or capacity of what they're calling light rail vehicles or LRVs. I think it's just semantic footwork, but I'll go along with it if that's what the kids are saying.

**dtowncitylover** · April-23-10, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Hermod

Would you kindly explain the difference between "light rail" and a "street car"?

I thought that i was pretty well versed in railroad and streetcar technology, but there are apparently "nuances" which are not discernible to me.

Hermod, I'm not an engineer like you, so I'll try my best to explain. I don't think I'm the one to explain this.

Portland has both a streetcar and light rail system. Most streetcars go along with traffic, like in Melbourne [[which has the most extensive streetcar system in the world). Light rail usually carries more people, on the same levels as metros, and is separated from traffic, not always though.

I know using Wikipedia is taboo, but I can't explain it well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tram
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_rail

**professorscott** · April-23-10, 02:22 PM

OK, I've studied the difference a bit, so here goes.

First of all, a streetcar is a type of light rail; the term "light rail" covers an entire spectrum of services. But to most users, since there is a continuum of types of this sort of service, they think about it this way:

The faster it is, the bigger the trains are, the more separated the track is from street traffic, and the farther apart the stops or stations are, the more people consider it to be "light rail".

The slower it is, the smaller the trains are, the more intimately connected the track is with street traffic, and the closer the stops are, the more people consider it to be a "streetcar".

Now, of course, there's not a line but rather a big fuzzy grey area between the two. I would surmise that M1 Rail, as currently proposed, is closer to the streetcar side than the light rail side, but with small changes it can and may move along that line in either direction. DTOGS, as most recently publicized, is closer to the light rail side than M1 Rail is, but it's still within a street corridor, so there is still that street-car-ish aspect to it.

Did that help at all?
Prof. Scott

**FerndaleDamon** · April-23-10, 04:37 PM

So, pardon me for asking, but is the light rail line gonna' run curbside or in the middle of Woodward? The original DTOGS video was in the middle. The current TRU picture has it near the curb. Which is it?