Patriots' Day Warning

[gibran]

Multiple sources: http://usgovinfo.about.com/blwacoguns.htm

we may never know the whole truth and yes of course it is tragic about the raid,,,but all they would have had to do is wave a white flag and walk out...but with children being married to adults, weapons [[illegal) and what ever else was going on ....who knows why they didn't just give up.

I always understood it was the Dravidian's that burned themselves up....wanting to martyrdom themselves...

but let's just say that the innocent children always suffer at the hands of adults...and when you do something illegal you risk law enforcement ...tragic yes...justification to blow up another group of innocents ...no way.

and my rant was not just at this unfortunate incident but in this anti-government movement in general...

[Detroitnerd]

Multiple sources: http://usgovinfo.about.com/blwacoguns.htm

we may never know the whole truth and yes of course it is tragic about the raid,,,but all they would have had to do is wave a white flag and walk out...but with children being married to adults, weapons [[illegal) and what ever else was going on ....who knows why they didn't just give up.

I always understood it was the Dravidian's that burned themselves up....wanting to martyrdom themselves...

but let's just say that the innocent children always suffer at the hands of adults...and when you do something illegal you risk law enforcement ...tragic yes...justification to blow up another group of innocents ...no way.

and my rant was not just at this unfortunate incident but in this anti-government movement in general...

Gibran: I understand your point of view. What you surmise could be concluded from watching the official news while it happened. But I urge you to check out the movie "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." In the film, you'll learn that the press was kept miles away, and really didn't know what was going on except through government reports, which naturally explained that they were trying to take out a bunch of bad, gun-loving, child-marrying religious nuts. But, in the film, the interviews with the survivors tell a much more disturbing story. Don't take my word for it. See the film. It's chilling.

[ggores]

Don't take my word for it. See the film. It's chilling.

During that time, in another life, I was instructor with "Code 44", anti-terrorism, hostage situations, security, blah blah blah, red cell post-disbandment, etc, and we studied things like this continuously, day in day out... so just going off memory here, but, the gas was injected by the barrels of the tanks as they bust thru the walls of that Texas compound. Everyone keeps referring to FBI agents, but weren't they DEA? And... wasn't it shown that some DEA were shooting AT and INTO other DEA? As they were gaining access to the roof of that ranch? Also, during the "standoff" that lasted for what - 2, 3 weeks, amidst several "warnings" issued by Miss Reno, this time was also used to test new, most modern, surveillance devices [[at the time). And the shit worked flawlessly! There's a bunch of other things in that flick also. Yep, the movie is chilling, but I take EVERYthing with a grain of salt. Make that two. Excelsior!

[barnesfoto]

It never fails;
The Waco crowd always forgets the MOVE fisaco in Philly, perhaps the cultists there were brown.
[[Perhaps our friend Ola would refer to it as "Mugabebombing" as it has nothing to do with Zimbabwe, except that you know, nudge nudge, brown folks were involved)



As for the Counterpunch Article, it lost me when they started blasting the Clinton Admin for taking Elian Gonzalez from the Cuban American nutbags in Miami to return him to HIS OWN FATHER [[The same crowd that demanded Elian stay in Miami celebrates airplane bomber LuisPosada Carilles, as a hero-gosh, why would anybody send in armed men?) The article also critiques Clinton's bombing of Serbia after years of Serbian acts of genocide were tolerated. Maybe people in Clinton Twp. or Serbia don't like him, but Bill Clinton seems to be pretty popular in Kosovo.
http://www.france24.com/en/20091101-...t-serbs-kosovo

[Stosh]

Source? Vidal wrote that the feds filled the compound with gas, not gasoline, which was both poisonous and flamable. Either way, "Some Davidians escaped. Others were shot by F.B.I. snipers." I realize you are a big government guy but the slaughter was unnecessary since they could have just nabbed Koresh on one of his trips to town for supplies.

http://books.google.com/books?id=I9S...soline&f=false

[Detroitej72]

But, in the film, the interviews with the survivors tell a much more disturbing story. Don't take my word for it. See the film. It's chilling.

And the survivors wouldn't be the least bit biased now, would they?

Come on now, let's use some common sense here, the survivor's were trying to cover their own asses, and make the cult look like a bunch of saints, since some were on trial for their actions.

[Sstashmoo]

And they were brainwashed too..

[oladub]

It never fails;
The Waco crowd always forgets the MOVE fisaco in Philly, perhaps the cultists there were brown.
[[Perhaps our friend Ola would refer to it as "Mugabebombing" as it has nothing to do with Zimbabwe, except that you know, nudge nudge, brown folks were involved)



As for the Counterpunch Article, it lost me when they started blasting the Clinton Admin for taking Elian Gonzalez from the Cuban American nutbags in Miami to return him to HIS OWN FATHER [[The same crowd that demanded Elian stay in Miami celebrates airplane bomber LuisPosada Carilles, as a hero-gosh, why would anybody send in armed men?) The article also critiques Clinton's bombing of Serbia after years of Serbian acts of genocide were tolerated. Maybe people in Clinton Twp. or Serbia don't like him, but Bill Clinton seems to be pretty popular in Kosovo.
http://www.france24.com/en/20091101-...t-serbs-kosovo

I'm a step ahead of you as I already brought up the MOVE fiasco in post #22. If you watch "Waco: The Rules of Engagement." [[thanks, Detroitnerd), it begins with federal agents promising that there would be no attack and telling a little girl that she wasn't going to be killed...but she was. Bill Clinton was a pathological liar and , as it turned out, a murderer. He could cry on cue if it furthered his agenda. Mugabebombing ? No, Mugabe is famous for his economic agenda. I was thinking something maybe a little more German where extermination comes into play.

“Clinton in fact was so ashamed about what he did in Waco that he was not going to appoint Janet Reno to a second four-year term. She told him in a meeting right before the inauguration day ... ‘If you don’t appoint me I’m going to tell the truth about Waco.’ And that forced Clinton’s hand "-Dick Morris

Clinton should have been equally ashamed of what he did in Serbia. The Serbs, Croats, Albanians, and Slavic Muslims have been butchering each other for hundreds of years. Clinton had no Constitutional authority to bomb Serbia for over fifty days. Besides, Serbia had never done harm to the US and considered us their friend. Clinton killed women and children there too without furthering any US interest.

If I understand, your idea of a good President is one who unconstitutionally kills foreigners and Americans alike and whose idea of family services is pointing a gun in a kid's face. Not that you are alone, we have other apologists, good subjects all, who believe that the government is always right, would never lie, and that the emperor has a set of splendid economic policies

-Detroit72 suggests that the survivors of the government inferno were liars and that Koresh wanted to be martyred by other right wing radicals.
-Gibran suggests that they burned themselves up to be martyrs.
-Stosh believes the Davidians doused their compound with gasoline [[before the tanks broke through the walls to spray gas).
-Royce warned us about the terrible things that might happen on Patriot's Day

Wounded Knee Redux

It would have been easier to just arrest Koresh when he was in town shopping like the Chinese guy.

[Detroitej72]

It would have been easier to just arrest Koresh when he was in town shopping like the Chinese guy.

They tried to arrest him when he was out jogging around the property but then these clowns started firring on the agents, killing a few of them, and then retreating into the compound. That's what started the whole fiasco.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "They tried to arrest him when he was out jogging around the property but then these clowns started firring on the agents, killing a few of them, and then retreating into the compound. That's what started the whole fiasco."

Huh? They went to his door with a search warrant to make a big scene for the media. They wanted their own hicktown version of Cops. They thought it was going to be a cakewalk. There are many theories flying around, one says the agents shot each other in the commotion. The day it happened, they said Koresh opened the door and asked what they wanted, they showed him the warrant, and he slammed the door. What happened from that point has been sketchy. All the molestation stuff came up afterwards when the arrest went sideways. Social workers had been permitted in the compound but were not allowed to interview the children in private. That is where all the child molestation allegations came from.

The FBI should have just left, and arrested each one as they came out eventually.

[Stosh]

And I thought Gannon was the resident conspiracy theorist.
You guys make him pale by comparison.

[gibran]

let's see .... here are folks rationalizing anti-government tactics...children [[maybe in danger of becoming David's brides)..but the government should have just waited...for them to come out...they did...when they played musac...wtf...by all accounts if someone was endangering children we should wait [[ I know they were endangered by the ATF also)...but seriously...if they had a couple of illegal deer rifles it would have been another story...does anyone even stop to remember the circumstances around this?

does anyone remember Jonestown? or other doomsday or antigovenrment cults? if the government didn't search what would people said if underaged women we being abused by a single person who preached end of days and anti government...people don't stockpile illegal weapons to go quail hunting....

[Michigan]

Oladub, you need to get a life. Start building Legos perhaps?

[Detroitnerd]

let's see .... here are folks rationalizing anti-government tactics...children [[maybe in danger of becoming David's brides)..but the government should have just waited...for them to come out...they did...when they played musac...wtf...by all accounts if someone was endangering children we should wait [[ I know they were endangered by the ATF also)...but seriously...if they had a couple of illegal deer rifles it would have been another story...does anyone even stop to remember the circumstances around this?

I remember what we were told on television and by the government. Then again, the media were kept so far away that they probably spent just as much time at Waco's taverns as they did "covering" the standoff. And how much trust do you give government spokespeople? They had an interest in presenting their side of the story, and made it as inflammatory as possible. [[Who is in favor of sexual abuse?) Of course, the people inside the compound had almost no way to give their side of things. But more telling, sexual or child abuse were never brought up as major factors in the eventual raid. Isn't that curious?

does anyone remember Jonestown? or other doomsday or antigovenrment cults? if the government didn't search what would people said if underaged women we being abused by a single person who preached end of days and anti government...people don't stockpile illegal weapons to go quail hunting....

Before we begin conflating this one event with other, different cases, perhaps this would be a good time to take in the other side of the story. We already know what we were told by the MSM. What about looking at the documentary, with a generous grain of salt, of course?

[Papasito]

this thread rocks, very entertaining

[Gannon]

And I thought Gannon was the resident conspiracy theorist.
You guys make him pale by comparison.

I was just gauging the speed of this treadmill before I jumped on it!

I only get involved in conversations where the content resonates with my experiences and esoteric learning. Everyone was doing fine without me here...as usual.


Cheers

[barnesfoto]

If I understand, your idea of a good President is one who unconstitutionally kills foreigners and Americans alike and whose idea of family services is pointing a gun in a kid's face. Not that you are alone, we have other apologists, good subjects all, who believe that the government is always right, would never lie, and that the emperor has a set of splendid economic policies

If I understand, the Libertarian way would have been to ignore a second wave of Serbofascist genocide against the Albanian Majority in Kosovo [[this after years of genocide against Bosnian Muslims, and decades of Serbian oppression of Kosovar Albanians that began after the death of Tito.

While I'm generally not a fan of interventions, this one seemed to quickly halt further Serb slaughter..As for the Serbs being our friends, friends of mine were fired on by Serb snipers in Sarajavo in the 90's. Others were stripped of their property and had to leave Yugoslavia with two suitcases. Their crime was being a "mixed" couple in a society that had been "mixed" for decades.
They could have dropped a few more bombs on Serbia as far as I'm concerned.

It's hilarious to hear you crowing about the repatriation of Elian Gonzalez after your endless xenophobic posts about illegal immigrants...You seem to have forgotten that he was brought into the country illegally against the wishes of his father, and that courts had ordered his return to Cuba, a court order ignored by those folks in Miami. Or do you now support immigration reform?

[Detroitnerd]

As I remember it, the Rambouillet Agreement was on the table and ready to be signed, but NATO wanted a show, so they didn't sign and started heaving DU-tipped cruise missiles at forbidden targets, including power plants and bridges. In other words, we had to have a huge war crime -- to stop the war crimes. Doesn't add up, though.

[oladub]

If I understand, the Libertarian way would have been to ignore a second wave of Serbofascist genocide against the Albanian Majority in Kosovo [[this after years of genocide against Bosnian Muslims, and decades of Serbian oppression of Kosovar Albanians that began after the death of Tito.

While I'm generally not a fan of interventions, this one seemed to quickly halt further Serb slaughter..As for the Serbs being our friends, friends of mine were fired on by Serb snipers in Sarajavo in the 90's. Others were stripped of their property and had to leave Yugoslavia with two suitcases. Their crime was being a "mixed" couple in a society that had been "mixed" for decades.
They could have dropped a few more bombs on Serbia as far as I'm concerned.

It's hilarious to hear you crowing about the repatriation of Elian Gonzalez after your endless xenophobic posts about illegal immigrants...You seem to have forgotten that he was brought into the country illegally against the wishes of his father, and that courts had ordered his return to Cuba, a court order ignored by those folks in Miami. Or do you now support immigration reform?

Right, libertarians let people on the other side of the world carry on with their centuries old anomosities and civil wars without getting the US militarily involved whether it is Somalia, Vietnam, or Yugoslavia.. You forget that Serbs had for years been pestered with Albanians who illegally crossed the border and killed Serbs. What happened to your friends also happened to Serbs and Croats in this three way historical conflict. I used to work with a Serbian-American carpenter, an ex US Marine, who would spend lunch hours telling the other construction workers about various historical atrocities of the Croats. The Croats would attack villages when everyone was in church, etc.. It was interesting history but, unlike you, I never had the inclination to bomb Croats because of all the bad things Mike said they did. President Clinton bombed Belgrade and Serbia for over fifty days for something they didn't do to us. He probably killed more Serbs than the Serbs killed Muslims and Croats and created a new training space for Islamic terrorists to boot. Satisfied? Don't be satisfied because your next call is whether we should take sides and bomb the Turks or the Kurds in their longstanding conflict. Why didn't Clinton jump into the Hutu - Tutsi conflict in your opinion? A lot more Tutsis were being massacred by Hutus than Albanians by Serbs. 300,000 people died there. Clinton let them die. But you are, for whatever reason, lauding Clinton for carpet bombing Serb troops.

I didn't say anything about Elian being returned to his father except to note the Gestapo like tactic that showed up in the famous photo. Like the extermination of the Davidians, it seemed a little over the top.

No, I don't support amnesty. I support enforcing existing immigration law and punishing employers who hire illegal aliens. Compared to what has transpired, that would be a reform.