Have Republicans Been Out-Foxed?

[oladub]

True. That was when the Repubs cut funding. They needed to continue funding their phony war in Iraq and wire tapping the masses to spy unconstitutionally on people. Where were the tea baggers back then, oh, wait, they are merely partisan hacks which is why most educated folks can't take them seriously.

Facts, D72, you have to go with facts to be taken seriously..

Only one Democrat did not give Bush the power to decide whether or not to go to war. Senator Obama funded the war every time Bush asked him to and supported Bush's expanded wiretapping legislation. As President, Obama has expanded the footprint of the middle east wars and bombings. Those are Obama's wars now. He has also expanded wiretapping as President. The earliest teabag parties were in 2007 and were very anti-war although they have since become more mainstream Republican. [['Teabaggers' is a derogatory term applied to tea party particpants referring to sexual practices better known amongst liberals.)

Hey, and I think that Obama was a marginally better choice than McCain and am an avid NPR listener. It is my most frequented radio station. I listen to the NPR news service but not the NPR classical music station. We have even been contributors.

Quote: "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank. " - Barack Obama Campaign Promise - October 27, 2007

[1KielsonDrive]

Facts, D72, you have to go with facts to be taken seriously..

Only one Democrat did not give Bush the power to decide whether or not to go to war. Senator Obama funded the war every time Bush asked him to and supported Bush's expanded wiretapping legislation. As President, Obama has expanded the footprint of the middle east wars and bombings. Those are Obama's wars now. He has also expanded wiretapping as President. The earliest teabag parties were in 2007 and were very anti-war although they have since become more mainstream Republican. [['Teabaggers' is a derogatory term applied to tea party particpants referring to sexual practices better known amongst liberals.)

Hey, and I think that Obama was a marginally better choice than McCain and am an avid NPR listener. It is my most frequented radio station. I listen to the NPR news service but not the NPR classical music station. We have even been contributors.

Quote: "I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank. " - Barack Obama Campaign Promise - October 27, 2007

Thank you very much!

[oladub]

Thank you very much!

1KD, A couple of good links [[consider bookmarking) for round the clock streaming news and public talk radio are at:
Minnesota Public Radio look for the 'MPR Listen Now link.
Wisconsin Public Radio look for the 'Ideas Network' link

[Papasito]

quote: "i will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time i am president, it is the first thing i will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. you can take that to the bank. " - barack obama campaign promise - october 27, 2007

lol
read my lips

[johnsmith]

Quote:
"i will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time i am president, it is the first thing i will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. you can take that to the bank. " - barack obama campaign promise - october 27, 2007

lol
read my lips

......and only crickets, from the Obamanoids here.

[Papasito]

Coburn's calling out of Fox was notable precisely because it's rare for Fox and Republicans to find their messages out of sync. The image of Fox that one gets from liberal critics such as The Daily Show's Jon Stewart is that it parrots Republican talking points, pushes conservative ideas into the mainstream, and keeps the base animated

There is such a thing as over exposure
Too much politics can make a person scream for some fresh air

[firstandten]

......and only crickets, from the Obamanoids here.

Troops are drawing down as we speak, from Iraq, that was the campaign promise.
That war is coming to an end. For the n-time he made no such campaign promise for the Afghanistan war please get that straight.

[Stosh]

Troops are drawing down as we speak, from Iraq, that was the campaign promise.
That war is coming to an end. For the n-time he made no such campaign promise for the Afghanistan war please get that straight.

You have to explain EVERYTHING to Smith, don't you know.

[1KielsonDrive]

You have to explain EVERYTHING to Smith, don't you know.

It seems so. In fact, if this president did or did not make explicit promises regarding certain actions, he implied and misled. I was one of the 'Noids' that was misled. Yeah, I know, I should've never let my guard down. I worked my ass off for him. But hey, every now and then a person comes along that you'd like to believe in. Unfortunately, Obama is not one of those people. That's the hindsight of the matter. Another note - common sense has no place in DC or politics anywhere. Duh.... You can teach an 'Old Dog' [[me) new tricks.

[1KielsonDrive]

1KD, A couple of good links [[consider bookmarking) for round the clock streaming news and public talk radio are at:
Minnesota Public Radio look for the 'MPR Listen Now link.
Wisconsin Public Radio look for the 'Ideas Network' link

Oladub, thanks. Will do.

[firstandten]

It seems so. In fact, if this president did or did not make explicit promises regarding certain actions, he implied and misled. I was one of the 'Noids' that was misled. Yeah, I know, I should've never let my guard down. I worked my ass off for him. But hey, every now and then a person comes along that you'd like to believe in. Unfortunately, Obama is not one of those people. That's the hindsight of the matter. Another note - common sense has no place in DC or politics anywhere. Duh.... You can teach an 'Old Dog' [[me) new tricks.

NO! he didn't imply OR mislead when it came to Afghanistan, unfortunately you heard what you wanted to hear rather than what was said.

[1KielsonDrive]

NO! he didn't imply OR mislead when it came to Afghanistan, unfortunately you heard what you wanted to hear rather than what was said.

Sorry firstandten, I disagree with you. I heard what he said and what he implied. Obama is a politician, pure and simple. He knew how to play the game and how to mislead by ambiguity and vagueness. You call it what you like, I'll call it what I think it is - deception, prevarication, misleading, etc, etc. I have no intention of parsing and quoting every thing said by Obama for X # of years. He misled us. I won't call you names. I've looked back at my political experiences for a half century - and this is my conclusion. The only reason I fell for his line was because we were just coming off of the worst 8 years of presidency in our country's history. Obama needed to come in to office with crowbars and a sledge hammer. He came in with a feather duster. He is guilty of arrogance of intellect. He thinks he's smarter than everybody else. He's not a street fighter. And certainly not as good a politician as he thinks he is. He may not get another 4 years. If he does, it won't be due to the support of many of the people who supported him in the last election. It will likely be due to the fact that the opposition is so bad.

[Detroitej72]

Obama needed to come in to office with crowbars and a sledge hammer. He came in with a feather duster. He's not a street fighter.

That much I'll agree with. He may have had the best intentions when he was running, but once he won, he found out that the president is beholden to the ruling oligarchy, aka the military industrial complex and their shadow government.

All this, of coarse proves Obama is a center/right president, contrary to what the right wing media indoctrinates sheep to believe.

[firstandten]

Sorry firstandten, I disagree with you. I heard what he said and what he implied. Obama is a politician, pure and simple. He knew how to play the game and how to mislead by ambiguity and vagueness. You call it what you like, I'll call it what I think it is - deception, prevarication, misleading, etc, etc. I have no intention of parsing and quoting every thing said by Obama for X # of years. He misled us. I won't call you names. I've looked back at my political experiences for a half century - and this is my conclusion. The only reason I fell for his line was because we were just coming off of the worst 8 years of presidency in our country's history. Obama needed to come in to office with crowbars and a sledge hammer. He came in with a feather duster. He is guilty of arrogance of intellect. He thinks he's smarter than everybody else. He's not a street fighter. And certainly not as good a politician as he thinks he is. He may not get another 4 years. If he does, it won't be due to the support of many of the people who supported him in the last election. It will likely be due to the fact that the opposition is so bad.

If you have read my posts over time you would know that I am not a name-caller, I respect the other posters, even the ones I disagree with too much to get into that.
I have had the opportunity mostly thru the POTUS channel and various internet sites to listen to or read just about every speech, press conference, town hall etc that he has given and also read his books.

The problem with Obama in the minds of many liberals, [[I won't deal with the Rush and Beck followers because they come out of right field) is that Obama is NOT a street fighter. He is not the kick ass take names type. His political style is more of a counter-puncher to use a boxing term.

Obama is a pragmatic, third way, incrementalist politician who leans left. I have stated that many times.

He is smart and surrounds himself with smart people, even with people he fundamentally disagrees with, and I don't have a problem with that. Obama is way above average as an orator and as a result he is able to motivate people.

People, even his own campaign folks doubted that he was tough enough to run for president, however if you read the story about Alice Palmer there is a chicago style politician side to him and unlike the Clintons his self-discipline and ability to stay on task has enable him to get some big projects done.

Now, you may not like his version of change or some of his policies thats part of the presidents job description, but he did not mislead when it came to Afghanistan, he said more than once that it was the war to fight and Iraq was the war to get out of. Of course he wanted a time table as it related to both wars.

As to your point that the opposition is so bad you're right, in some respects Obama has been a lucky politician [[see US Senate race). However the good ones make there own luck, And other than for Bobby Rush, Obama is not a person to be underestimated in any political race.

[Papasito]

NO! he didn't imply OR mislead when it came to Afghanistan, unfortunately you heard what you wanted to hear rather than what was said.

That's what a lot of people did.
And that's why he was elected.

Well, that and the fact that McCain isn't the sharpest tool in the shed,
and his nutjob sidekick shredded any credibility McCain had in his corner.

[Sstashmoo]

The powers that be feared McCain, once he was in office would attack campaign finance reform [[McCain-Feingold bill), totally disrupting the way our government functions now. The Republican party injected the idiot [[Palin) to thwart any hopes for a successful campaign run. Remember the heated interview he did? That was about the time he figured it out.

Seriously, any rational thinking human being can listen to this lady speak for two minutes and determine she doesn't have the brains God gave a goose. Vice presidential candidate? I'm sure they still chuckle. They've made our politics a circus.

[1KielsonDrive]

That much I'll agree with. He may have had the best intentions when he was running, but once he won, he found out that the president is beholden to the ruling oligarchy, aka the military industrial complex and their shadow government.

All this, of coarse proves Obama is a center/right president, contrary to what the right wing media indoctrinates sheep to believe.

You have that right.

[1KielsonDrive]

If you have read my posts over time you would know that I am not a name-caller, I respect the other posters, even the ones I disagree with too much to get into that.
I have had the opportunity mostly thru the POTUS channel and various internet sites to listen to or read just about every speech, press conference, town hall etc that he has given and also read his books.

The problem with Obama in the minds of many liberals, [[I won't deal with the Rush and Beck followers because they come out of right field) is that Obama is NOT a street fighter. He is not the kick ass take names type. His political style is more of a counter-puncher to use a boxing term.

Obama is a pragmatic, third way, incrementalist politician who leans left. I have stated that many times.

He is smart and surrounds himself with smart people, even with people he fundamentally disagrees with, and I don't have a problem with that. Obama is way above average as an orator and as a result he is able to motivate people.

People, even his own campaign folks doubted that he was tough enough to run for president, however if you read the story about Alice Palmer there is a chicago style politician side to him and unlike the Clintons his self-discipline and ability to stay on task has enable him to get some big projects done.

Now, you may not like his version of change or some of his policies thats part of the presidents job description, but he did not mislead when it came to Afghanistan, he said more than once that it was the war to fight and Iraq was the war to get out of. Of course he wanted a time table as it related to both wars.

As to your point that the opposition is so bad you're right, in some respects Obama has been a lucky politician [[see US Senate race). However the good ones make there own luck, And other than for Bobby Rush, Obama is not a person to be underestimated in any political race.

I disagree that Obama is a left-leaning politician. He's center-right, in my opinion. I also don't agree Obama is an above average orator. He came along after GWB, who'd make me look like a great orator. Many of the people I speak to on a regular basis, agree with my assessment that they were deluded by the complete disaster of the previous 8 years, so becoming susceptible to a vision of 'Change' that is totally false. I've yet to see what big projects Obama's gotten done. Health Care? It's only a big project to those people who've bought into the lie that there's fundamental change in the bill as passed [[it's spread out over twenty years to cover everyones asses). And why was Single Payer co-opted [[taken off of the table) before serious negotiations even began? Hey, I want to buy a new car, don't tell me the bottom line price, but I'll give you my trade-in for one dollar. I don't believe Afghanistan was the main point of our original discussion. You may be correct on that one, but I think we should've never gotten involved in Afghanistan. Troops should be leaving there as we speak. I give Obama an A+ in comparison to the last 8 years and a D overall for 'Change'. He deserves an A only for putting a kinder, gentler face on our country's appearance to the world, which I'll admit is a big accomplishment, but it hardly impacts our citizens problems with Health Care, Foreclosures, Credit Card usury, job losses, education costs, labor bargaining, human rights, etc, etc, etc.

[Papasito]

He deserves an A only for putting a kinder, gentler face on our country's appearance to the world

A little too kind. Iran told us straight up Russia is being false about this new nuclear arms thing, and it's blatantly obvious that Russia and China are helping Iran acquire nuclear weapons while telling us that they have nothing to do with it. In the meantime, Iran is funding attacks against the fledgeling government in Iraq, and against our troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Maybe he made us look too nice, because the world is walking all over our penniless former superpower of a bankrupt country

[firstandten]

We all have different measurements of what amounts to change. Change can represent anywhere from 1 degree to 180 degrees. What Obama did do was to throw the word "change" out there knowing it would mean different things to different people. The key to what his "change" represents was to understand his campaign promises. By most accounts he did a fairly good job in holding to the campaign promises he made in his first year [[see link). It seems Obama did not measure up to your expectations in his first year and 1/2 and thats understandable. My point in making this discussion is that he didn't mislead, he has been pretty clear as to what he wanted to do.

Given the political landscape, being able to sign almost 20 pieces of legislation in his year and one half, signing the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act and the Health Care and Education Affordability Act were major accomplishments. You could add the GM restructuing in that group as well.

Single payer was taken off the table because the votes weren't there, they knew it from the beginning and any kind of health care reform would have gone down in flames if they kept pursuing that line.

As far as our other problems are concerned especially economic, they are being addressed, we didn't get into the economic abyss overnight we won't get out overnight.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/

[1KielsonDrive]

We all have different measurements of what amounts to change. Change can represent anywhere from 1 degree to 180 degrees. What Obama did do was to throw the word "change" out there knowing it would mean different things to different people. The key to what his "change" represents was to understand his campaign promises. By most accounts he did a fairly good job in holding to the campaign promises he made in his first year [[see link). It seems Obama did not measure up to your expectations in his first year and 1/2 and thats understandable. My point in making this discussion is that he didn't mislead, he has been pretty clear as to what he wanted to do.

Given the political landscape, being able to sign almost 20 pieces of legislation in his year and one half, signing the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act and the Health Care and Education Affordability Act were major accomplishments. You could add the GM restructuing in that group as well.

Single payer was taken off the table because the votes weren't there, they knew it from the beginning and any kind of health care reform would have gone down in flames if they kept pursuing that line.

As far as our other problems are concerned especially economic, they are being addressed, we didn't get into the economic abyss overnight we won't get out overnight.


http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/

You base your comments on your understanding of Obama's campaign promises and I base my comments on my understanding. Obviously we are worlds apart in our understanding and perceptions. I believe he misled, as most politicians do. Politicians are evasive and purposely vague so to have as much room as possible to do whatever they like when push comes to shove. Obama is just another politician and certainly not the visionary leader and agent for 'Change' I allowed myself to think he was. Eight years of Bush contributed to my delusion. As far as the Health Care Reform Line, it's pure y/k/w. You've bought into the Demican's lame excuses for not attempting the slightest bit of true reform. Obama, in his arrogance, thought he was playing the insurance companies. The insurance companies played him. He used the feather duster and not the sledge hammer.

[firstandten]

You base your comments on your understanding of Obama's campaign promises and I base my comments on my understanding. Obviously we are worlds apart in our understanding and perceptions. I believe he misled, as most politicians do. Politicians are evasive and purposely vague so to have as much room as possible to do whatever they like when push comes to shove. Obama is just another politician and certainly not the visionary leader and agent for 'Change' I allowed myself to think he was. Eight years of Bush contributed to my delusion. As far as the Health Care Reform Line, it's pure y/k/w. You've bought into the Demican's lame excuses for not attempting the slightest bit of true reform. Obama, in his arrogance, thought he was playing the insurance companies. The insurance companies played him. He used the feather duster and not the sledge hammer.

I don't know if your idea of a visionary politician even exists. If you find him/her let me know, I'll probably vote for that person.

[oladub]

After pouring huge amounts of future taxpayer money into idiotic schemes, the unemployment rate is still above the 8% mark that Porkulus was supposed to prevent. Here is a key to understanding the hope and imagined change.


Instead of liquidating debts and moving on, the printing press has been bailing out bankers, buying Korean cars, trying to reinflate the housing bubble, and othewise failing to suppress reality. Inflation always , at some point, follows huge increases in national money supplies. The hope and imagined change are the feel good stuff we get from more borrowing and spending but the effects will be temporary and the more we imbibe, the worse our collective hangover will be.

The result is that we are starting to see articles about how the interest rate on treasuries has doubled in the last couple of years, Social Security is paying out more than it is taking in ten years sooner than expected, oil has gone up 60% in the last year, and wholesale food price rise in March 2010 biggest in 26 years. Fortunately, the core inflation index doesn't measure some of these things and there is still some asset deflation to balance day to day price increases in food, health care, taxes, gasoline- things like that.

I seldom watch Fox News but I read the perky Newsweek article and run into Rachel and Kieth once in a while. Whatever Fox is doing, these sources seem to be doing chearleading for the other end of the conventional political spectrum trying, as Jesse said, to 'keep hope alive'.

"The way to crush the bourgeois is to grind them between the millstones of taxation and inflation." – Vladimir Lenin.

[rb336]

I disagree that Obama is a left-leaning politician. He's center-right, in my opinion. I also don't agree Obama is an above average orator. He came along after GWB, who'd make me look like a great orator. Many of the people I speak to on a regular basis, agree with my assessment that they were deluded by the complete disaster of the previous 8 years, so becoming susceptible to a vision of 'Change' that is totally false.

He is clearly center-right. his policies are to the right of Eisenhower. It is only by the twisted extreme-right of the last 8 years that he even seems remotely liberal, and, of course, the reactionaries are using his color as a wedge with the tea-party fools to push the perception of "moderate" further and further to the right. they will continue to do so until most of you live in tin huts at the foot of their gated palaces

[1KielsonDrive]

]I don't know if your idea of a visionary politician[/b] even exists. If you find him/her let me know, I'll probably vote for that person.

You may be correct in the present tense. I won't bother to let you know for the obvious reason that your idea of a visionary politician and mine will likely never be the same. Not surprising. Two people seldom share an exact vision. It seems Obama is yours. He is far from visionary in my book. I do have to add that 'visionary' is mostly determined after the fact. I held Obama up there for 'Hope' and 'Change'. He's proven, after his election, to be far less, to me. Not a visionary at all. No vision and no fight. All of this 'South Side Chicago Fighter' crap. It's all Parade Magazine marketing.