Article: For Detroit, BRT or Rail First?

[cman710]

This article discusses transit plans for Detroit, and raises some interesting points and links to some interesting articles. An excerpt is below:

After receiving millions of dollars in commitments from private foundations and a grant from the U.S. Department of Transportation, Detroit’s planned M-1 Streetcar is virtually assured of completion as planned in 2013. The $125 million project will be the first major transit investment in this vast city since the opening of the one-way downtown People Mover loop in 1987. Construction is planned to commence by the end of this year.

But that 3.4-mile line, running in lanes shared with automobiles along Woodward Avenue between downtown’s Campus Martius and the New Center at Grand Avenue, will make just a blip in what is a huge, sprawling region housing more than four million inhabitants. As a result, Wayne County [[whose seat is Detroit) and its neighbors Macomb and Oakland Counties have recently advanced a plan for expanding transit access throughout, focusing on an extension of the Woodward rail project and series of bus rapid transit lines. With suburban interests holding major sway in the process, the extended bus lines appear likely to be built before the inner-city rail project.
The previously prioritized effort to build a commuter rail line between Detroit and Ann Arbor is apparently on the far back burner, put off in favor of high-speed rail, for which Michigan has recently received funds.

Politicians and businesspeople from Macomb and Oakland Counties, representing a large section of the region’s population, have been quick to point out the limitations in the Woodward Streetcar line: at a total cost of $425 million, it will cover only nine route miles, all within the city of Detroit. For about twice that cost, advocates of a “Golden Triangle� bus system argue that they could build a 67-mile network of lane-separated lines along Woodward Avenue, Gratiot Avenue, and M-59, connecting downtown Detroit with Pontiac and Clinton.

Link to the entire article: http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...or-rail-first/

[Detroitnerd]

My vote is rail, not the fake rail on rubber wheels that burns gasoline and spews exhaust and doesn't convince developers that we're serious about transit.

[English]

^ Agreed. I do, however, think that a Woodward rail line is a great start for this. It would be great if we could get it up to Royal Oak by 2015-17. Immediately, you'd link two "hotspots" for entertainment and nightlife in the metro.

If it's well-maintained, clean, reliable, and well-patrolled, I think initial ridership will shock everyone... especially if gas really does ever get beyond $5 per gallon without a corresponding rise in salaries. Given the timeframe, that could very well be the case.

I'm disappointed by the setbacks that the Ann Arbor commuter rail line suffered last month, though. Not just because it personally affected my decisions for this fall, but because interurban transit to Ann Arbor, Pontiac, and perhaps even Monroe or Toledo could also build the region economically by providing access to jobs, entertainment, shopping and more for people who are unable or unwilling to drive.

[Motown Madman]

Mabye we should wait untill they get started on the Rail line before they start making more plans, it could be years before this actually happens, knowing how long it takes for Detroit to actually start the development on something.

[Detroiters123]

Hopefully it won't take too long. I am amped to see new things added to the city. Personally, I would rather ride a train than a bus, so I'd vote for a rail line. Either way, the more growth the better... just do something already! The train will be a good way to move New Center & Wayne State traffic downtown [[and vice versa)...especially in the summer. The good part of it all is that if it's done in spurts, it'll build anticipation.

[Fury13]

The middle class in metro Detroit just won't ride buses, not even if they're very nice buses.

Rail.

[ghettopalmetto]

I would like the geniuses promoting the BRT idea to explain how one shuts down a busy "rapid" bus route for several years to construct light rail on it.

It's never been done. It'll never be done.

[Russix]

Yes let's use buses where rail works better, and rail where buses work better.

[rb336]

BRT is a joke

[Warrenite84]

The Master Transit Plan for the Metro Area was endorsed by the tri-counties and Detroit and includes ART and BRT transit to establish ridership on the arterial spokes that either lack ridership volume or funds for LRT at this time. As ridership increases on these routes, an LRT can be added later, hopefully with wider support.

Since BRT busses are not electrically operated, they can run in any lane while an LRT gets built in the established BRT right-of-way.

If the LRT on Woodward goes to 8 Mile, a BRT up to Pontiac can be used to increase ridership and possibly induce suburbanites to the usefulness of rapid transit, ART, BRT, or LRT.

[stasu1213]

I still believe that the rail system in Detroit will be put on the back burner. BRT is the Big 3 way of gaining control on this rail project. I had been saying for years that Detroit is not going to get any type of light rail system until the people elect leaders who are not controlled by the Big 3, the oil company, and the rubber company. Has ground been broken for this light rail that will go from Hart Plaza to New Center? I want light rail in Detroit just as others. Light Rail would not have a chance if this "Rapid Bus System" is implemented first. Busses that will probably be made at one of the Big 3.It will probably use gasoline instead of electricity; and yes it will need rubber tires. Don't let anyone sell you on the idea of rapid busses. We already have express busses for that.

[casscorridor]

Why spend a billion dollars on buses in the burbs that no one will ride when we could upgrade the severely overcrowded buses in the city of Detroit?

Take two examples --

On the 53 Woodward [[or any of the busiest routes such as Grand River, Gratiot or Dexter), the buses are severely overcrowded and they are suppose to run at most every 10 minutes during the day, but they are chronically late and often get bunched up, so that two or three buses come at a time, after a 20-30 min wait.

On M-59 there aren't any buses at all, much less people walking. If you are walking, the police will probably stop to check you out, because if you aren't driving you are probably a criminal. Everything is a mile apart. You can't even walk to the place "next door", yeah, that is right. Even places that are right next door are too far to walk to, and you'll find people driving. The cultural and physical makeup is irreversibly car orientated and dominated.

Now lets compare closer. Along Woodward you find an urban place that was build before the rise of the autos. Along 59 you find massive lots that are spread acres apart, and even the closest buildings are far away. The density is many times lower, and nearly everything was build in the last few decades... so nothing is old, and there is very little sense of place or of history of place. Woodward, however, is historic and lined with historic site after historic site... "first paved street" or the DIA or the underground railroad, you name it. What does M-59 have? A faux outdoor mall that acts as a "downtown," that can only be reached by car.

Along Woodward there are 200,000 people working between the New Center and the river, about three miles. Along M-59 there are probably 200,000 people working along 30 miles. Woodward has the DMC and WSU and CCS. M-59 has Macomb Community College.

New Center to Downtown is currently, as we speak, a walkable place. You can walk to the grocery store. You can walk to school or work. You can walk to a movie or a play. Can you do that anywhere along M-59?

So it becomes clear -- the core of Detroit was build for transit. It has all the bones. The area around M-59 was build for cars and everything is reflective of that fact. There is little chances of undoing this. So the real issue is not what place can support transit, it is about what place has more money. Plain and simple.

The average Detroit resident lives on 18,000 dollars a year. Not enough to support retail, or much of anything really. And obviously not enough to convince our leaders to invest in us. If you don't have money you are worthless. Just look at the doublespeak around the shrinking plan... "Detroit is not dense enough" which really means "Detroit doesn't not have a high enough density of middle-class residents" or "there are neighborhoods in Detroit with nothing there" really means "there are neighborhoods in Detroit with no middle-class people." And while they say this, they absolutely never include the extremely low-density suburbs in their prescription, probably because people with money live there, so those place are worth something to them.

This plan is classist and racist, and is furthering the 50+ year legacy of unequitable distribution of resources to the suburbs over the city. We should stop it and demand real solutions. URBAN MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM IN DETROIT NOW! UNIVERSAL EMPLOYMENT NOW!

[casscorridor]

I just wanted to add to my post that although the average household income of Detroit is somewhere in the range of $18,000 a year, there are still many who make much more, many of whom go outside the city to shop. I also wanted to say that people who make 18k a year still need to spend money on things, and some of them still go to the burbs for food. So there is a massive amount of money leaving the city every single day. Millions of dollars every day I would guess, out of the hands of Detroiters and into the hands of suburbanites. I strongly feel that light-rail will help reverse this trend by concentrating development, making it easier for retailers to go in, so that Detroit once again has some sort of "Downtown" shopping district, and so that we don't have to drive to the mall anymore.

[DC48080]

This plan is classist and racist, and is furthering the 50+ year legacy of unequitable distribution of resources to the suburbs over the city. We should stop it and demand real solutions. URBAN MASS TRANSIT SYSTEM IN DETROIT NOW! UNIVERSAL EMPLOYMENT NOW!

Classist? Racist? Not hardly!

50 year legacy of unequitable distribution of resources to the suburbs? Resources distributed from whom to the suburbs? From Detroit residents? Last time I checked Detroit residents did not donate to anything being built [[not build) such as parks or stadiums, or major office buildings in the 'burbs.

In Detroit however there are many examples of things that were built [[not build) with a large portion of their funding coming from suburban residents' contributions and investments. Ever hear of Campus Martius Park? How about the Compuware Building [[built by a guy named Karmanos who lives in the burbs). The Book Cadillac [[restored by a guy named Ferchill who lives outside of Detroit).

Are you really just mad because nobody from the suburbs personally handed you a bag of cash?

Maybe some of the folks outside of Detroit are tired of seeing their tax dollars continually sunk into Detroit and then hearing people like you whine and cry that nobody gives Detroit anything. There are two sides to every argument you know.

And as far as your idea of "universal employment" just what does that mean? Who is going to pay for it?