Religion directly related to crime

**maxx** · April-08-10, 09:31 AM

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle571206.ece
"
" RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.
According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.."

Now, why would that be? Hmm?

**Detroitnerd** · April-08-10, 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by maxx

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...icle571206.ece
"
" RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society, contributing towards high murder rates, abortion, sexual promiscuity and suicide, according to research published today.
According to the study, belief in and worship of God are not only unnecessary for a healthy society but may actually contribute to social problems.."

Now, why would that be? Hmm?

I think it comes down to a difference between morality and ethics.

How do you teach morality? Well, what's right is right and what's wrong is wrong, and if you do what's wrong you'll be punished after you die. Notice how fear is used to influence behavior.

How do you teach ethics? First you ask, "Is it better to suffer an injustice or to cause one?" Riddling out the ethics of doing unto others as you'd have them do unto you is a rational process. Thinking it through, on may arrive at the view that it is preferable to be treated unjustly if it means not being a party to injustice. Notice how reason is used to influence behavior.

Now take both people and put them in an emotional situation where they feel threatened. Who is going to lose his cool? The person used to critical thinking and ethics? Or the person who is so busy being scared of the wrath of a supernatural being that he never uses reason to examine the world around him?

I think the answer is pretty obvious.

**Sstashmoo** · April-08-10, 10:36 AM

Quote: "RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society"

Total bullshit. The country and society you have been fortunate enough to be placed in, the remnants thereof were structured and shaped by God-fearing people.

I hope our economy improves, for some, I hope what they wish for is revealed to them on a much grander scale. I truly think that is what is happening. Our dollar crashes, it's over folks. This notion that men will just ally with one another and do good is off the charts insane. Read a friggin newspaper. The reality is, those without God, serve themselves, not others. Like what you're getting? Keep believing what you do.

**Detroitnerd** · April-08-10, 10:46 AM

Ah, yes. All men are sinners, inherently evil, and would simply kill each other but for their faith in God.

Never mind that, throughout history, more people have been killed in God's name than these "believers" care to admit.

**Sstashmoo** · April-08-10, 10:56 AM

Quote: "Never mind that, throughout history, more people have been killed in God's name than these "believers" care to admit."

More bullshit.. Prove it. That is such a tired lie. I can't point to one church that has ever killed anyone. Can you? When the demonic Adolf Hitler was slaughtering Jews, what should we God-fearing people have done? Nothing according to you.. We may harm someone. When Japan bombed Pearl Harbor and was trying set fire to our Northwest, what should we have done? Nothing according to you, we may harm someone. That lie is very twisted and convoluted and straight from the pit.

On the above questions and left with your own rationale, "Nothing" is exactly what you'd do. "Not my problem"

**Detroitnerd** · April-08-10, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "Never mind that, throughout history, more people have been killed in God's name than these "believers" care to admit."

More bullshit.. Prove it. That is such a tired lie.

Have you heard of the crusades? [[A millions or more dead in the name of God over the course of two centuries, including the massacre of 100,000 Muslims alone during the Fall of Antioch.) Or the Inquisition? [[More millions dead.) How about the French wars of religion? [[Another few million.) Maybe you saw all those religious slaughters in the Bibble? [[Scholars estimate that the total historical death toll of events in the Bible is more than 1 million.)

That's about 7 or 8 million right there. Have we arrived at "more than you care to admit" yet?

**johnsmith** · April-08-10, 11:53 AM

Very funny that people take this thread seriously.

How many Hasidic Jews carjack people? Does the crack addict or gang banger practice religion fervently? Does the priest in the church down the road break into neighboring houses and fence TV sets? Do Hare-Krishna's rob banks?

Hilarious!

**Zacha341** · April-08-10, 12:48 PM

Oh boy here we go. LOL! The Christian crusades are always reflexively referenced to the exclusion of other violent historical actions and events for the cause of "faith" be they so-called high-minded epistemological - religious or SECULAR.

There have been murders and bloody crusades for the cause of Islam too... going on "now" in the Sudan for example. But that is not, er-em, politically or polite, or SAFE to say that. Come on let's bring it on: Most are too intimidated to bring that up.

Brutality and crime is not historically or contemporarily speaking solely a Christian issue. And yes, the wars and murders for the cause of Christ [[the crusades for example) are a sad legacy, but NOT the intended outworking. Nor are all people that practice Islam terrorists.

Now let's take a look at the "kinder" side of secular genocide [[sic) and crimes against humanity, like the tender treatment millions of Chinese suffered under Mao, the genocide of Timor. Popots legendary brutality and other pockets of crime and death within parts of Asia and Africa. And let's not neglect the joyful secular totalitarianism of Stalin, and Hitler's most note worthy [[man is of blood and soil) regime of crime and death... All examples of secular genocides, and brutality therein for the cause of Man or men as "god"...

More on this when time allows [[specific to Islamic force by the sword etc.)..... where I set aside the time to site specific historical events and time lines.

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Have you heard of the crusades? [[A millions or more dead in the name of God over the course of two centuries, including the massacre of 100,000 Muslims alone during the Fall of Antioch.) Or the Inquisition? [[More millions dead.) How about the French wars of religion? [[Another few million.) Maybe you saw all those religious slaughters in the Bibble? [[Scholars estimate that the total historical death toll of events in the Bible is more than 1 million.)

That's about 7 or 8 million right there. Have we arrived at "more than you care to admit" yet?

**Zacha341** · April-08-10, 12:52 PM

Indeed! You always here the "crusades" referenced. The referencing usually stops there.

When in point of fact history points to MANY PORTALS of mans inhumanity to man, justified therein....

If you choose to look at facts this is born out... Or not.

Some want to believe the standard stuff, withstanding facts as it is endorses their ideas on a given subject.

Originally Posted by johnsmith

Very funny that people take this thread seriously.

How many Hasidic Jews carjack people? Does the crack addict or gang banger practice religion fervently? Does the priest in the church down the road break into neighboring houses and fence TV sets? Do Hare-Krishna's rob banks?

Hilarious!

**Detroitnerd** · April-08-10, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Oh boy here we go. LOL!

Haha. Whatever. That's why debating with "believers" is so lame. They believe what they want to. It's worthless to present facts or testimony to those blinded by religion, taught year after year to "walk by faith and not by sight." I think their brains atrophy and die, and all your left with is a person whose main talent in life seems to be to jam their ears in their fingers, and roar in tongues when faced with evidence that religion is a backward hocus-pocus that tells people it's OK to break somebody's back as long as you save their soul.

Retroit · April-08-10, 01:12 PM

I'm glad atheists don't contribute to social problems.

**rb336** · April-08-10, 02:21 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

Quote: "RELIGIOUS belief can cause damage to a society"

Total bullshit. The country and society you have been fortunate enough to be placed in, the remnants thereof were structured and shaped by God-fearing people. .

and we have the highest crime rate of any economically developed country. the lowest crime rates? the very un-religious Scandinavians and Nederlanders

littlebuddy · April-08-10, 02:26 PM

So having no foundation for absolutes makes people less selfish,greedy,etc? That if we would get rid of all religion we would just have love fests everyday and do all the good things that say,Jesus said to do. I don't think so. Get rid of religion and its influence on nations and people and in a generation or two you would have total chaos as every person would do what they wanted, when they wanted, how they wanted. Religion has killed many, but many, many more would die without religion of some type. The non-religious don't want to admit how much religion has influenced them and their surrounding to keep peace,law and order. The non-religious can only live good in a religous enviroment of some type, any total breakdown of the religious enviroment and the non-religious are at the mercy of all the same selfish people as themselves who have no absolutes outside of what they have set and want.

**Zacha341** · April-08-10, 02:32 PM

Did you read my post in its entirety? Surely you don't make the summation that blinding dogma is a "religious only" construct? Well if you do I get it. Many feel likewise thus, why the argument is so TEMPLATED and rarely is any real light shined on the subject...

If Jay Leno did his "man on street" interviews on the subject there'd be the same thing again and again "Christian crusades" and or "religion has cause all wars" etc, ETC. But some might give him an alternate view.... I know I would.

Yet as I stated people mostly want to stay were they are and no amount of new or compelling info will change that...

Umm, I would agree your second sentence so long as you include the secular-humanist devotees [[believers) as well...

Some secularists can be just as strident and passionate as the so-called religious! As evidenced by the historical brutal subjugation and rule by force I cited in my comments who were neither Christian or Muslim....

And the intolerance seen in today's society on several fronts, not just from some Christians.

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

Haha. Whatever. That's why debating with "believers" is so lame. They believe what they want to. It's worthless to present facts or testimony to those blinded by religion, taught year after year to "walk by faith and not by sight." I think their brains atrophy and die, and all your left with is a person whose main talent in life seems to be to jam their ears in their fingers, and roar in tongues when faced with evidence that religion is a backward hocus-pocus that tells people it's OK to break somebody's back as long as you save their soul.

**Detroitnerd** · April-08-10, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Zacha341

Umm, I would agree your second sentence so long as you include the secular-humanist devotees [[believers) as well... they can be just as strident and passionate as the so-called religious! As evidenced by the historical brutal subjugation and rule by force I cited in my comments who were not Christian or Muslim.... And the intolerance seen in today's society on several fronts, not just from some Christians.

"When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!"More George Carlin on religion at http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm

**Meddle** · April-08-10, 02:45 PM

Originally Posted by Sstashmoo

I can't point to one church that has ever killed anyone. Can you?

You mean besides the Roman Catholic Church? The same one where pedophiles are protected by the Pope himself?

What about all the people killed in New England accused of witchcraft? That was at the direct hand of the churches of the day.

**Zacha341** · April-08-10, 03:00 PM

Thank you for your response, I respect the options of opinions here so long as it does not devolve into shrillness and too much profanity at which point I will move on... but I realize people are very passionate on this issue...

And I've heard Carlin's talks/ comedic skits on religion [[even thought he was really funny and clever at another point in my life) yet the evidence on the world stage bears out that religion is not the singular cause of crime locally or globally. I did have a period in my life where I had reservations and bias about the "religious" specifically Christian, then I saw the alternative and was not overly impressed with that....

There are many theological and personal reasons [[beyond the scope of this web site) why some maintain a "religion". To those not so inclined it will often be viewed as folly.

That is as it is. I accept that, so long the other side can be presented... and tolerated.

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd

"When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. No contest. Religion. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time!
But He loves you. He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story. Holy Shit!"More George Carlin on religion at http://www.rense.com/general69/obj.htm

**Zacha341** · April-08-10, 03:13 PM

Well Meddle, just be glad we are not under theocratic rule as in parts of the middle-east [[right now)... this conversation would not even be possible... nor debate allowed.

Originally Posted by Meddle

You mean besides the Roman Catholic Church? The same one where pedophiles are protected by the Pope himself?

What about all the people killed in New England accused of witchcraft? That was at the direct hand of the churches of the day.

**firstandten** · April-08-10, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by johnsmith

Very funny that people take this thread seriously.

How many Hasidic Jews carjack people? Does the crack addict or gang banger practice religion fervently? Does the priest in the church down the road break into neighboring houses and fence TV sets? Do Hare-Krishna's rob banks?

Hilarious!

Hey! I heard of a few Catholic priest that like underage boys to satisfy them in a certain way.

**firstandten** · April-08-10, 04:01 PM

Religion , like a gun is only a tool. It can be used for good or harm. Depending on where someone is at in there life religion can be used to justify cutting someones head off, or giving someone your last dollar.

The people who are inclined to commit crimes and kill people use religion to justify their acts. Because the bible is written is such a way that you can pretty much support any kind of argument you want to make people can do bad things are still live with themselves.

I don't believe the church/religion encourages crime but the believers interperpetation of religion is what causes it.

**Meddle** · April-08-10, 05:04 PM

In addition to Carlin's words, there's this from Jesse Ventura:

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."

**Zacha341** · April-08-10, 05:16 PM

Ventura! LOL! Loved him in "Predator"!

Welcome to the new weak-minded wise, those of whom will enshrine the smartest "elected" people in the room... To be rewarded with the likes of the "promise all" new IRS-like governmental secular laws and regulations coming up on the books!

Of whom are really good about sticking their "noses in other people's business."

Originally Posted by Meddle

In addition to Carlin's words, there's this from Jesse Ventura:

"Organized religion is a sham and a crutch for weak-minded people who need strength in numbers. It tells people to go out and stick their noses in other people's business."

**Sstashmoo** · April-08-10, 06:26 PM

Quote: "and we have the highest crime rate of any economically developed country."

Rb, it's all these darn church go-ers. Just looting and killing. Rather, good upstanding folks that marry once and for good, raising their kids in a positive environment, instilling values. Yes, we must stop this at once. You show me an ill in society and it can be traced back to non-believers, guaranteed.

**gibran** · April-08-10, 06:59 PM

it is obvious that some have been hurt by their experiences in their journey as a person by religion or maybe by bad people in an order or denomination...but generalizations about people of faith verses non believers is just that...radicalization of anything leads to abuse....the number of people who do wrong who are affiliated with a religious practice may be just affiliated by name alone...I am a person who should be judged by my actions and deeds...not by any labels... I happen to have found a compromise with religion and science and my spirituality as defined by me and practiced in a traditional manner... I don't see myself as any better than anyone...just trying....to be a good person who also has a science background as well as a faith based one. They coexist in my little mind...but that is me...I wouldn't kill for a just war, unless it was the last option...I wouldn't steal or practice prejudice...but that's my choice...not out of fear or obligation, but out of compassion...which was taught by my parents who were religious as well as educated.