The Spirit Level

[canuck]

Diehard--- great moniker by the way...

Rich kids may not get their new Beemers, but they sure wont go without health care. What is it with you guys and health care? Every single civilized planet in this solar system has universal health care [[that's why it's called Universal, I think!?...) Sure there are plenty of problems with state run care, but what is it you guys are defending, the right for private interests to run every single aspect of your life even if this means people go without any type of insurance?

[Detroitej72]

I don't listen to them or watch them. They're just there, for some reason. Stupid, loud attention whores are like that, always getting in the way when the rest of us are trying to watch the news or have a normal conversation. Sound familiar?.

People like you and I don't pay attention to these clowns, but many other indoctrinated, brain dead cons do. They are called ditto heads for a reason.

[Detroitej72]

What is it with you guys and health care?

We have Cosmetic Conservatives in this country on AM radio and the conservative media who are paid to tell the sheep that it's a bad, bad, bad thing to have universal health care and that you will die and go to hell.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Really? Have you ever heard anyone say that their family, or happiness, or satisfaction with their life means more to them than a bunch of money?"

Tell that to DTE when they call.

[Diehard]

Diehard--- great moniker by the way...

Rich kids may not get their new Beemers, but they sure wont go without health care. What is it with you guys and health care? Every single civilized planet in this solar system has universal health care [[that's why it's called Universal, I think!?...) Sure there are plenty of problems with state run care, but what is it you guys are defending, the right for private interests to run every single aspect of your life even if this means people go without any type of insurance?

I take it from your moniker that you're in Canada, eh?
I don't know why Americans are so hung up on health care. It's baffling to the rest of the world how so many claim to be Christian [[meaning they're supposed to care for the poor and sick) but are so Darwinian [["pull yourself up by your bootstraps, bud") about national policy.
Unfortunately, a lot of it is just lazy ignorance. We've heard a lot of people in the past year hollering about stuff they know nothing about, but if Glenn Beck or Sarah Palin or their preacher said it, then by golly they believe it.
I think it's also a reflection of our peculiar style of capitalism. We're supposed to grab as much money as we can and hold onto it, even if it means everyone else goes hungry. What that's led to is not just a widely disproportionate income distribution, but disproportionate power - those private interests will do everything they can to run our lives, as long as the politicians let it happen and they can convince enough people that it's the way it should be.
It hasn't always been that way, but that's been the prevailing sentiment for my lifetime, at least.

[Diehard]

Quote: "Really? Have you ever heard anyone say that their family, or happiness, or satisfaction with their life means more to them than a bunch of money?"

Tell that to DTE when they call.

Dude, WTF are you talking about?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I don't know why Americans are so hung up on health care."

Because you fail to understand that what was just passed, exists no where else. They have you believing, this is for the good of the people. This is for the good of the corporations. I find it ironic, the same people that are for controlling the wealthy in this country, just jumped over their asses, passing a bill to make the wealthy, more wealthy.

They call this "National healthcare", it isn't what other countries have.

It's like Obama and his "Fairness Doctrine", sounds palatable.. Do some research on it. Especially Cal Sustein. Talk about an attack on our first amendment..

They've learned, as long as they wrap shit tightly in a nice wrapper, most people will buy it.

[9mile&seneca]

Maybe I missed something, but from what I'm hearing, it is going to make the insurance companies a whole buttload of money.

[9mile&seneca]

When I saw how much cash the extinguished genemen were taking from the insurance companies, it's no wonder they made it mandatory for everyone to buy health insurance.

[Diehard]

It goes back to our all-consuming worship of capitalism. The insurance industry is extremely profitable and powerful, and there's no way the U.S. could have overhauled anything without its cooperation, so we got what we got.
We didn't get single-payer, which would have made the insurers obsolete. We didn't even get the public option, which would have given people a choice to reject the private insurance racket. But what we got was a step in the right direction.
Yes, it will bring them more customers, but it also puts them under a new set of rules that [[are supposed to, at least, until the lawyers get hold of it) protect those customers from the abuses they were so fond of. It's still better than doing nothing - the "die in a ditch" plan, which is what the Darwinian conservatives wanted.

[9mile&seneca]

Ooookay...

[Detroitnerd]

It goes back to our all-consuming worship of capitalism. The insurance industry is extremely profitable and powerful, and there's no way the U.S. could have overhauled anything without its cooperation, so we got what we got.
We didn't get single-payer, which would have made the insurers obsolete. We didn't even get the public option, which would have given people a choice to reject the private insurance racket. But what we got was a step in the right direction.
Yes, it will bring them more customers, but it also puts them under a new set of rules that [[are supposed to, at least, until the lawyers get hold of it) protect those customers from the abuses they were so fond of. It's still better than doing nothing - the "die in a ditch" plan, which is what the Darwinian conservatives wanted.

Actually, insurance companies are nowhere near as profitable as big oil and big pharma. They have to keep raising health insurance premiums to stay profitable, but then healthy people opt out making it harder to turn a profit. This new legislation will ensure profitability for the insurance industry, which is just about the worst way to overhaul "health care" you could think of.

[Hermod]

The problem with perception of success in the US is that its rarely disassociated from money. If you give a guy like Rush Limbaugh 150 million dollars a year to push an agenda that promotes corporate greed; then even if you disagree with his unsavory tone, you still cant argue with success. If you listen closely to guys like Limbaugh and Hannity, it is all very well scripted. Not a single word is used without an intended effect. They are backed by speechwriters like politicians.

As soon as you command a few minutes a day in broadcasting, no matter how inane your contribution; you will come out extremely wealthy. Whether you go from rags to riches or are just plain born into it doesnt matter. The moral is; You cant argue with success.

Limbaugh moved in to AM radio at a time when no one else wanted AM radio. Everybody was listening to their "tunes" on FM stereo. The only guys listening to AM were long distance truckers out of reach of line-of-sight FM transmission. Limbaugh and the other talk show guys revived AM radio and made it valuable again.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "It goes back to our all-consuming worship of capitalism."

"Our" = Democrats obviously

Quote: "The insurance industry is extremely profitable and powerful, and there's no way the U.S. could have overhauled anything without its cooperation,"

True party line BS. Making apologies for the crooks. We can do any dam thing we want. It's a free country.

Quote: "so we got what we got. "

We got what our Government and Special interests convinced you to take.

Quote: "We didn't get single-payer, which would have made the insurers obsolete. We didn't even get the public option, which would have given people a choice to reject the private insurance racket. But what we got was a step in the right direction."

What we got is going to be a major catastrophe in the coming years.


Quote: "Yes, it will bring them more customers, but it also puts them under a new set of rules that [[are supposed to, at least, until the lawyers get hold of it) protect those customers from the abuses they were so fond of.

Let me get this straight, the insurance companies authored this bill and it has provisions that put them at a disadvantage? Please. This bill will prove to be the largest scam ever committed.

Quote: "It's still better than doing nothing - the "die in a ditch" plan, which is what the Darwinian conservatives wanted."

We needed a new health system, WITHOUT the insurance companies. I'm getting a bit tired of watching privately held organization aligning themselves with Federally funded policies and institutions. Hey I'm an American citizen, how bout the Government passing a law, mandating people doing business with me? I go to the US Postal website to take care of some business, I'm seeing ads from Home Depot and Bed Bath and Beyond. How the hell do these people rate or rank for the ability to do this? This is a dangerous precedent. People cry for separation of Church and state, how about the separation between state and private business?

[9mile&seneca]

Sstash, If you'll just give me about 5 million clams, I'll do anything I can to get any legislation passed that you want.

[ghettopalmetto]

How did this thread become another vehicle for incomprehensible babble against health insurance reform? It's clear that most of the posters on this thread don't read too well.

Now, let's hear some good arguments why our society is much better off with our caste system than if we had truly equal opportunity.

[Diehard]

Quote: "It goes back to our all-consuming worship of capitalism."

"Our" = Democrats obviously

Democrats? Where did you get that idea? The Republicans were the ones calling for the "die in a ditch" plan, which was a capitalist's dream. Both parties are beholden to big money, and that's not gonna change without major campaign finance reform.

Quote: "The insurance industry is extremely profitable and powerful, and there's no way the U.S. could have overhauled anything without its cooperation,"

True party line BS. Making apologies for the crooks.

No, I'm not. I'm being realistic. I'd love to see the health insurance industry disappear; it's a completely unnecessary money-sucking wall between patients and doctors the way it's set up now. However, it's hugely powerful. We saw how hard they fought this plan, imagine if Congress had tried to pass a bill that put them completely out of business?

We can do any dam thing we want. It's a free country.

Campaigns aren't free.

Quote: "so we got what we got. "

We got what our Government and Special interests convinced you to take.

Yup. Not ideal by any means, but better than nothing. Politics is all about compromise and making deals. What rock have you been hiding under?

Quote: "We didn't get single-payer, which would have made the insurers obsolete. We didn't even get the public option, which would have given people a choice to reject the private insurance racket. But what we got was a step in the right direction."

What we got is going to be a major catastrophe in the coming years.

That remains to be seen. In your own words: "what was just passed, exists no where else." The closest parallel is in Massachusetts, and even that's new enough that nobody can predict its long-term workability.

Quote: "Yes, it will bring them more customers, but it also puts them under a new set of rules that [[are supposed to, at least, until the lawyers get hold of it) protect those customers from the abuses they were so fond of.

Let me get this straight, the insurance companies authored this bill and it has provisions that put them at a disadvantage? Please. This bill will prove to be the largest scam ever committed.

The insurers didn't author this bill. They pledged last year to cooperate with Obama and Congress in the overhaul because they saw it was going to happen, in some form. Then they spent millions on ads, pulled out the propaganda and put together those astroturf rallies to fight it tooth and nail. Don't you remember the angry mobs at the town hall meetings last summer? That was the insurance industry fighting this bill, not authoring it and trying to move it along. Congress authored the bill, which is why it's so long and convoluted.

Quote: "It's still better than doing nothing - the "die in a ditch" plan, which is what the Darwinian conservatives wanted."

We needed a new health system, WITHOUT the insurance companies.

Totally agree with you there. It may happen eventually, but they sure as shit weren't going to let it happen overnight.

I'm getting a bit tired of watching privately held organization aligning themselves with Federally funded policies and institutions.

Which is why we need campaign finance reform.

Hey I'm an American citizen, how bout the Government passing a law, mandating people doing business with me?

If you were powerful and wealthy enough to buy a bunch of politicians, I bet they would.

I go to the US Postal website to take care of some business, I'm seeing ads from Home Depot and Bed Bath and Beyond. How the hell do these people rate or rank for the ability to do this?

There are also ads on the sides of city buses. It's called revenue.

This is a dangerous precedent. People cry for separation of Church and state, how about the separation between state and private business?

Never gonna happen, not in our capitalism-worshipping country.

[Diehard]

How did this thread become another vehicle for incomprehensible babble against health insurance reform? It's clear that most of the posters on this thread don't read too well.

Now, let's hear some good arguments why our society is much better off with our caste system than if we had truly equal opportunity.

Yeah, how DID this become about health care?

[Detroitnerd]

Yeah, how DID this become about health care?

I think the folks on this forum who represent the extreme right wing have a problem focusing on more than one issue at a time.

[Sstashmoo]

Diehard wrote: "Yeah, how DID this become about health care? "

Quote: "I think the folks on this forum who represent the extreme right wing have a problem focusing on more than one issue at a time."

Diehard's first mention of healthcare on this thread: "Can we also agree that no matter how someone's living, it shouldn't be reflected on their kids, who had no choice in the matter? Rich kids don't "deserve" new BMWs any more than poor kids "deserve" health care."

That's how "healthcare" was brought up. No I'm not making this up. The person that started it, asks a few posts later how it happened.

[Diehard]

That post was about class distinctions and income disparities, don't you realize that?

[9mile&seneca]

So, only one who has certain views is permitted to invoke the sacred phrase "Health Care"?

[ghettopalmetto]

So, only one who has certain views is permitted to invoke the sacred phrase "Health Care"?

If you want to discuss "health care" with regard to the socioeconomic disparities cited at the top of the thread, fine.

If all you're going to do is bitch about the new health care law, take a hike.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "If all you're going to do is bitch about the new health care law, take a hike."

Oh is this your forum sweety? Siddownn

[Papasito]

I guess liberals just can't help but to pander to poor/black people

.
which is ironic in itself because if you read history, the Democrats opposed freeing the slaves. they opposed Civil Rights laws. they prided themselves on wars with native americans, and created and enforced the indian reservation programs. in fact, the president and vice president of the Confederate States of America were both democrats. funny how those facts are never talked about.

as soon as the elected democrats of the US become poor and can relate to us average schmucks, they start eating mac and cheese and cheap meatloaf, they are no better then the snooty republicans everyone is so quick to bash. all the leaders are out of touch and are power drunk.

Now let me make myself clear, I am not saying that the Democrats are evil and Republicans have halos over thier heads. I'm just making a point to remind you that as Democrats thumb thier noses at Republicans, they are not walking on Holy Water with a clean history behind them.