The Spirit Level

[maxx]

from amazon.com:

Starred Review of
The Spirit Level:Why Greater Equality Makes Societies Stronger

Wilkinson and Pickett make an eloquent case that the income gap between a nation's richest and poorest is the most powerful indicator of a functioning and healthy society. Amid the statistics that support their argument [[increasing income disparity sees corresponding spikes in homicide, obesity, drug use, mental illness, anxiety, teenage pregnancies, high school dropouts—even incidents of playground bullying), the authors take an empathetic view of our ability to see beyond self-interest. While there are shades of Darwinism in the human hunt for status, there is evidence that the human brain—with its distinctively large neocortex—evolved the way it has because we were designed to be attentive to, depend on, and be depended on by others.


The remarkable data assembled in The Spirit Level reveals striking differences, not only among the nations of the first world but even within America’s fifty states. Almost every modern social problem—ill-health, violence, lack of community life, teen pregnancy, mental illness—is more likely to occur in a less-equal society. This is why America, by most measures the richest country on earth, has per capita shorter average lifespan, more cases of mental illness, more obesity, and more of its citizens in prison than any other developed nation.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html [[April 2, 2010)
"Stevenson adds that to reach King's dream, America must address the causes of poverty, 'I think in America, the opposite of poverty is justice. I think there are structures and systems that have created poverty, and have made that poverty so permanent, that until we think in a more just way about how to deal with poverty in this country, we're never gonna make the progress that Dr. King envisioned.'"

[Sstashmoo]

What a bunch of socialistic crap.. Does that book explore "personal responsibility" at all? I don't buy the poverty causes crime fallacy. There are many impoverished areas all over this country and world for that matter, and the crime rates are very low, almost non-existent.

[Retroit]

Instead of encouraging people to succeed and discouraging certain behaviors, they are demanding "justice", i.e. the redistribution of wealth.

[Papasito]

just because someone is "poor" does not mean they don't have the ability to know what is right and what is wrong.

[Retroit]

^How true! Isn't it ironic how these liberals claim to be concerned about poor people, then go on to insult them by implying that they are the cause of all our social problems? It's no wonder so many poor people feel helpless: the liberals have already condemned them to failure.

[maxx]

^How true! Isn't it ironic how these liberals claim to be concerned about poor people, then go on to insult them by implying that they are the cause of all our social problems? It's no wonder so many poor people feel helpless: the liberals have already condemned them to failure.

The numbers don't lie. Even among the different states, they report that crime is higher in the states with the greatest wealth disparity. Next you'll be claiming that there is no racism in the U.S..

[Retroit]

Racism is not the cause of the problems mentioned in the article.

I guess liberals just can't help but to pander to poor/black people. Wouldn't want to lose such a strong voting bloc.

[Diehard]

Let's post a study and watch the grumpy conservative wharrgarblers come out of the woodwork!
Yes, everyone knows that the reason a CEO gets paid 200 times what a line worker at his company does is because he works 200 times harder and deserves all those millions for all his hard work.
Everyone knows Paris Hilton deserves her millions. Why can't everyone be like Paris Hilton, working hard and earning all her success the American way, not dependent and sucking on the teat of society?
Stupid liberals! Why do they always want to punish success?

[Retroit]

I'd be willing to bet that many of the social ills mentioned in the article are just as likely among the ultra-rich as they are among the poor.

[Diehard]

Yes, but they can afford discreet abortions and take their drugs in penthouses, not in the gutter.
The rich deserve to be able to sleep around, drink to excess and take drugs without punishment because of all their hard work, success and personal responsibility.

[Retroit]

...no differently than the poor...which proves it is not about wealth, but personal responsibility, as Sstashmoo and Papasito have said.

[rb336]

Instead of encouraging people to succeed and discouraging certain behaviors, they are demanding "justice", i.e. the redistribution of wealth.

more like a de-redistribution. give the money BACK to the people who add value -- the workers -- and away from those who subtract it -- the bankers, speculators and insurers

[Diehard]

...no differently than the poor...which proves it is not about wealth, but personal responsibility, as Sstashmoo and Papasito have said.

No, it's totally about wealth. Conservatives love to wag their fingers at poor people who have sex and take drugs, while ignoring how rich people do the same thing. The difference is that the wealthy can buy their way out of any negative consequences. Is buying your way out of trouble your idea of "personal responsibility"?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Conservatives love to wag their fingers at poor people who have sex and take drugs, while ignoring how rich people do the same thing."

In the words of Fury13 "Oh bullshit!"

Successful people don't get that way by being irresponsible. I think you're using the offspring of the successful as comparison. Are Bill Gates, Warren buffet et al, irresponsible? No they aren't, they are hard working intelligent people that have earned every dime they have made. True definition of failure is to admonish them for their successes out of ignorance and jealousy. A winner emulates them, or tries to.

Re: The Dr. King reference in the original post, if you knew anything about Dr. King he would be agreeing with the concept of "personal responsibility". It was one of the pillars of his message.

[Diehard]

Quote: "Conservatives love to wag their fingers at poor people who have sex and take drugs, while ignoring how rich people do the same thing."

In the words of Fury13 "Oh bullshit!"

Successful people don't get that way by being irresponsible.

I think you missed the sarcasm in my use of the word "success." Rush Limbaugh is a "success" and a hero to conservatives. He's also an irresponsible drug addict. And a mean, nasty person.

I think you're using the offspring of the successful as comparison. Are Bill Gates, Warren buffet et al, irresponsible?

Did I say they were? No.

No they aren't, they are hard working intelligent people that have earned every dime they have made.

Did I say they didn't? Did I even refer to either of them? No.

True definition of failure is to admonish them for their successes out of ignorance and jealousy. A winner emulates them, or tries to.

Yup. Aren't we agreeing here?

I think YOU are confusing "successful" with "rich." They're not the same thing, except in the eyes of some small-minded conservatives.
I was referring to the idle rich such as Paris Hilton, who did nothing to "earn" her "success" and has been plenty irresponsible over the years. Not all rich people are successful and responsible, but for some reason it's not an issue if they're doing the same horrible things that get some poor people in trouble. Paris and Rush don't have to steal cars to pay for their drugs, but they still do drugs.

Re: The Dr. King reference in the original post, if you knew anything about Dr. King he would be agreeing with the concept of "personal responsibility". It was one of the pillars of his message.

Of course he did. Many poor people can blame some of their problems on poor choices. Many are hard-working, intelligent and responsible, but poor for other reasons.
You didn't answer the question though: Is buying your way out of trouble - using your own hard-earned success money or Daddy's - considered "personal responsibility?"

[Sstashmoo]

quote: "I was referring to the idle rich such as Paris Hilton"

She's a Hilton and you aren't, get over it. You should be investing your time making your family name famous instead of whining about someone else's. If these people annoy you, stop doing what keeps them in the spotlight, listening to them and watching them. I did, over a year ago, and have not missed them one iota.

Quote: "I think YOU are confusing "successful" with "rich." They're not the same thing,"

I've never heard this statement from anyone: "I'm flat broke, but I consider that a success"

[maxx]

Racism is not the cause of the problems mentioned in the article.

I guess liberals just can't help but to pander to poor/black people. Wouldn't want to lose such a strong voting bloc.

You don't think racism plays a part in hiring people today? You don't think that racism is at the basis of the fact about the number of African Americans in prison on drug charges v. whites ? And we all know what a career-advancer prison is.

http://www.workers.org/2005/us/racist-hiring-0630/

[ghettopalmetto]

Instead of encouraging people to succeed and discouraging certain behaviors, they are demanding "justice", i.e. the redistribution of wealth.

So why aren't you a multi-billionaire, you lazy son of a bitch? Get off your ass, stop posting here, and get a real job already.

[ghettopalmetto]

Are Bill Gates, Warren buffet et al, irresponsible? No they aren't, they are hard working intelligent people that have earned every dime they have made.

Oh yeah, that's right. Little Bill Gates, who was born-and-raised in the gutter, right?

You're talking about the guy who:

*had access to his very own computer in the 1960s and 1970s.
*attended an exclusive prep school that had a computer available
*his father was a prominent attorney and could afford said prep school [[and Harvard)
*bought what would become MS-DOS for $50,000 from another programmer

That guy?

Not to say Bill Gates didn't work hard or isn't incredibly brilliant, but little Leroy in the 'hood doesn't stand a chance at your definition of "success".

[9mile&seneca]

He does if his mommy and daddy are married.

[canuck]

The problem with perception of success in the US is that its rarely disassociated from money. If you give a guy like Rush Limbaugh 150 million dollars a year to push an agenda that promotes corporate greed; then even if you disagree with his unsavory tone, you still cant argue with success. If you listen closely to guys like Limbaugh and Hannity, it is all very well scripted. Not a single word is used without an intended effect. They are backed by speechwriters like politicians.

As soon as you command a few minutes a day in broadcasting, no matter how inane your contribution; you will come out extremely wealthy. Whether you go from rags to riches or are just plain born into it doesnt matter. The moral is; You cant argue with success.

[johnsmith]

So why aren't you a multi-billionaire, you lazy son of a bitch? Get off your ass, stop posting here, and get a real job already.

Ooh, testy. Great way to make a convincing point. And as far a little Leroy goes, 9mile&seneca is SPOT ON.

[ghettopalmetto]

Ooh, testy. Great way to make a convincing point. And as far a little Leroy goes, 9mile&seneca is SPOT ON.

What's your excuse? Are your parents divorced? Mine aren't, yet I'm not a tycoon. And I have to pay socialist taxes on top of it! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

You right-wingers all make the same crass assumption that we somehow all start life with equal opportunity. This is a horseshit assumption, and you know it.

I used to think like you when I was a teenager, and then I went to get an education. You have me, a blue collar kid, the product of a butcher and a waitress, competing with kids whose daddies are Wall Street traders, automotive executives, and powerful attorneys. Tell me that I had every advantage those kids had, and I'll commit you to an asylum. We had an annual "food day" in French class. These kids had week-long trips to Paris as part of their curriculum. Would you consider that to be "equal opportunity", or was I somehow just lazy that my parents weren't multi-millionaires?

At the end of the day, I worked my ass off, got my degree, and I'm happy and successful. But if you don't think I'd be in a much better position if I had the same background as my collegiate peers, you're out of your fucking gourd.

[Diehard]

quote: "I was referring to the idle rich such as Paris Hilton"

She's a Hilton and you aren't, get over it. You should be investing your time making your family name famous instead of whining about someone else's.

Waaaah, I'm just jealous. So now you make it personal. Nice. What is this, junior high? I could give a crap about either Paris or Rush; I think I've made it clear I don't have the least bit of admiration for them.

If these people annoy you, stop doing what keeps them in the spotlight, listening to them and watching them. I did, over a year ago, and have not missed them one iota.

I don't listen to them or watch them. They're just there, for some reason. Stupid, loud attention whores are like that, always getting in the way when the rest of us are trying to watch the news or have a normal conversation. Sound familiar?

Quote: "I think YOU are confusing "successful" with "rich." They're not the same thing,"

I've never heard this statement from anyone: "I'm flat broke, but I consider that a success"

Really? Have you ever heard anyone say that their family, or happiness, or satisfaction with their life means more to them than a bunch of money? If not, that's just sad.

[Diehard]

Can we all agree that it's not a black-and-white issue? That it's not a matter of "all poor people are poor because they're dumb and make bad choices" and "all rich people are rich because they're brilliant, talented and hard-working"?
Can we also agree that no matter how someone's living, it shouldn't be reflected on their kids, who had no choice in the matter? Rich kids don't "deserve" new BMWs any more than poor kids "deserve" health care.