Does the Devil Always Do God's Dirty Work?

[Gannon]

Gannon: It is only a problem if you deny the truth of re-incarnation.

maxx; That's a belief, not truth.

No, actually, it has been proven by doctor/scientists over a period of forty years. The most scientific study has interviewed phenomenal children from all over the world, before they've forgotten their previous life. It is only shunned as a belief by those who do not wish to know the truth.

Gannon: Unseen or Unidentified Beings exist, mostly outside our VERY limited merely-human perception. Of this there is little doubt...there is record of it back to some of the earliest cave drawings and indeed throughout time until ONLY the modern age, as science took hold of the human psyche.

maxx: How are those cave drawings identified as "unseen beings"? It sounds like you think the Nazca earth drawings are runways for flying saucers.

And it sounds like YOU want to believe they can be made without aerial aide? If they didn't KNOW something was flying overhead, WHY would those drawings even have been done?! Do you know anything about the Piri Reis map from 1513? Another that couldn't have been done without far-advanced knowledge, understanding, and ability.


Gannon:It seems that at least a third, by the measure of some of the mythologies, of these are not pleasant or benign...but rather meddling spirits, for whatever reasons they have.

maxx: You call them mythologies and yet you declare that these mythological beings really exist. Belief in something does not equal its existence.

Of course, no kidding, where are we...Philosophy 101? Give that tact a break, I don't even want to waste time on basics.

YOU are the one who relegates mythologies to fib or fiction status. I take them for face value, at least the basic concepts within them need to be seriously considered and their limited language and experience taken fully into account. For most of history, the stories were passed down VERY precisely by word of mouth. It was what they had, and they used it. These stories are crucial to our understanding of all existence, it is only in recent times they have been considered worthless, when indeed it was merely OUR bold modern misunderstanding of what memory of the earliest 'divine instructions' they have been trying to convey all this time.


G: pparently they have limitations on what they can actually DO in our realm of perception, it seems they can do anything but directly contact us [[without our invitation), and the term 'temptation' was fashioned to include them.

But they cannot make anyone do anything, any evil on this Earth...perpetrated through humans, IS ultimately the responsibility of the one who acted, not the one who whispered the concept in the person's ear, or introduced the new action to human repertoire.

maxx: What is the source of all this?


Various sources. This is my cumulative understanding also from EXPERIENCING the direct effects these beings have within and around individuals ignorant of their existence. Some is common knowledge, so come ON and catch up! You don't want to remain ignorant and easily played, do ya?!

G: We are amplifiers and magnifiers of everything we put our focus on

maxx: Please explain. It sounds like you are saying that we are causing the expansion of the universe by our observation of it.

Oddly, that is one of the conclusions of my overall theory, one which I hadn't shared with anyone yet. Since this which you call reality is more like what the Buddhists have been calling 'illusion' all along, this concept should not be too alarming. Now that the leading theoretical physicists are using Buddhist language to describe what they are discovering, I wouldn't dismiss the ancient Buddhist mythologies just yet. Indeed.

G: There ARE higher-evolved beings on the Earth right now who eagerly encourage everyone to get beyond these limitations,..

maxx: Where 's your evidence for this?

What evidence would you consider worthy of your consideration? I know Shaman who get regular advice and more from angelic beings that is tangibly useful in this 3d-linear time illusion of reality. But you have helped me see some incomplete language, I would like to amend the 'higher-evolved' term to the probably more accurate 'other created'.

If I hadn't gotten specific encouragement and illumination from Shamanic visits over the past ten years, I would not be able to make that comment. In the past, I always considered my 'discussion' with the ether to be trustworthy to the Source of all things, and have gotten enough direct inspiration and instruction to know I'd at least connected with something good and true and honest and real. Can I say I've talked with God? Not specifically, but I know I've at least encountered beings who have done so directly. There have been a few instances where there was greater, but I refuse to assume. Time will tell.

G: I'm only trying to get everyone PAST this diametric, and into the better place beyond, but it can ONLY happen with the admission that we are all capable of the greatest evil imaginable as well as the greatest good.

maxx: If we are capable of the greatest evil imaginable, and I guess I agree with this although I'm not sure what the greatest evil imaginable is, then what do we need with devils?

How the heck do I know?! I am of the current understanding that it is all one grand cosmic BET between the Maker and the highest of that which was Made. When the second decided to BE the first, the trouble started...and the mystery is why a full THIRD of that class of sentient beings chose to leave with number two?! But best I can tell, they are basically locked up here on the Earth, setting the stage for our very weird existence on what seems to be merely a huge chessboard or Risk game!

G: Anyone who gets close to the Maker knows that the tangible stuff we consider all of life is merely icing on a WAY more incredible creation cake.

maxx: And, of course, you have a personal telephone connection to the Maker. So, do you have plans for your next incarnation or are you just blissed out with the prospect of being part of any form of matter?

Actually, of everything I've ever said, this IS the closest to something I can say I directly heard from the Maker. I've got no personal open line that I can enjoy at will, but there was one day back in 2001 where I distinctly heard some curiously empowering, encouraging, and FREEING words from the ether. If it wasn't God, then I am the craziest fellow in the room.

Either way, what's it to you?! I am advocating nothing dangerous nor troubling in any way, shape, or form.


I have enough trouble considering THIS incarnation, btw, so I'm not wasting any energy on the next one. I just want to do THIS one as well as I can, which I think may be the meaning of life...each of ours, one at a time.



Cheers!

[Gannon]

Didn't see this post until now.

Gannon wrote: The best proof I have of their existence AND the manipulation of such can be found in a study of Extremely Low-Frequency ElectroMagnetic Radiation and any/all human interaction with such...coupled perhaps with a study of the octave structure of each sense's perceptive range [[see if you can spot the trend and extrapolate).

maxx: Whose study? The Pentagon's interest and money spent on ESP is no secret.

That would be YOUR study, so you can catch up. If you say the Pentagon's interest and studies have been NO SECRET, why do they insist on tagging them TOP SECRET? Go ahead and try to get any real information beyond the teasing abstracts listed.

G: But know there is a reason they've done everything they can through the media and traditional schooling to influence everyone away from any serious study of these things, hell not even a casual consideration can be tolerated! We are programmed to consider any studies of even the Sixth Sense ridiculous.
maxx: I thought ESP was a skill you developed through practice not studying about it. You know, like riding a bicycle.

What is practice if not studying and applying what you learn?

G:Cheers, and NO, I don't know exactly who 'they' are. Heh.

maxx: Yes, there is a touch of the paranoid about what you're saying, but just because you're paranoid doesn't mean "they're" not out to get you. I am more concerned with the health impacts of ELF.

Why would you equate my basic understanding of the existence of something 'other'...based on trends of perception and logical postulating beyond what IS perceived...with PARANOIA?

Do you even KNOW what paranoia means? I am not even close to it.

I've uttered nothing that indicates such to anyone with any depth of reason and honesty...but for someone who wishes to make the conversation moot it would make a nice tactic.

So, why would you wish render this discussion moot, friend? I am merely speculating some conclusions based upon all the data...coupled with my experiences.



One can be awake and aware without being afraid...heh.

[Papasito]

I'm guessing this is about Catholic priests and thier boy love?
The Catholic church dropped the ball on that entire situation.

Local Catholic churches should separ from the Pope when the Vatican does not eject these priests and hold them accountable for what they are guilty of doing. You can't keep the establishment clean if you cover it up.
Local Catholic churches are funding and supporting these priests because some of the donations they collect go back to the Vatican, and in turn are handed out as hush money to the boys that have been abused.

The only answer for the Catholic church would be to hold wrongdoers accountable, eject them from the system, have them prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, and run a clean organization. If the Vatican can not do that, I would hope that Catholic churches that don't support this type of behavior to either separate from the Vatican or change denomination.

[maxx]

Because I've SEEN demonic possession, and have then seen it cured and/or resolved.

Did you actually see the "demons" leave the person? I don't doubt that people can convince themselves that they are possessed.

Why do you put such effort into giving these beings a pass? Why do you want to ignore them...effectively letting them act with impunity?!

Wait a minute. Now you're blaming me for the evil these so-called demons do just because I want proof of their existence? And how do you propose that anyone stops the demons from doing what they want to do? After all, they are invisible and supernatural, right? Exorcism doesn't kill the demons from what I've read. People have been blaming demons since time immemorial instead of taking responsibility or trying to find out their real problems. If we didn't have skeptics, we wouldn't have the drugs today that eliminate people's hallucinations. We'd still be boring holes in people's heads.

Why do their work for them?

Now you've revealed yourself as just another religionist that would prefer to live with his fantasies than recognize the absurdity of believing in the supernatural for which there is no evidence. This is the 21st century. If you can't come up with evidence, your beliefs are just fairy dust.

As for the 'hook', as I said very clearly...no matter what, human beings are responsible for the things they choose to do [[and what they choose NOT to do). Always.

So you believe that people choose to be possessed? If so, then why wouldn't they just get repossessed after being exorcised? If you really believe that crimes are caused by supernatural beings, we might as well do away with our prisons and just return to burning people at the stake.

G: Why is that something you cannot grasp?

maxx: Why do you cling to such outdated beliefs? Because you saw someone writhing on the ground? Better inform the psychiatric community that they've got it all wrong.

G : Why do you revisit the same concepts, seeking a loophole?!

maxx: What are you talking about? Just because I look for other solutions to mental illness and crime, you think I'm in league with devils? You may use a lot of new age verbiage, but your mind is in the dark ages.

[maxx]

G: Why would you equate my basic understanding of the existence of something 'other'...based on trends of perception and logical postulating beyond what IS perceived...with PARANOIA?

maxx: You imply that there is some government conspiracy to keep you from being all you can be psychicly speaking. And what makes you think you have basic understanding about something that hasn't been scientifically proven to exist? You probably don't believe in coincidence. Everything happens for a reason --even if the reason is something you have devised. Have you read Michael Shermer's book Why People Believe Weird Things?

G: I am merely speculating some conclusions based upon all the data...coupled with my experiences.

maxx: All whose data?

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "You may use a lot of new age verbiage, but your mind is in the dark ages."

Seriously, what do you care? Since when and who saddled you with the responsibility of laying out how others should believe. You may be wrong just as well, have you ever considered that? I doubt it.

[maxx]

G: No, actually, it has been proven by doctor/scientists over a period of forty years. The most scientific study has interviewed phenomenal children from all over the world, before they've forgotten their previous life. It is only shunned as a belief by those who do not wish to know the truth.

maxx: So give me a website to learn about these "phenomenal" children, whatever that means.
Have your read Sagan's The Demon Haunted World? A dose of reality now and then can't hurt.

[Pam]

Maxx- what's up with your inconsistent use of the quote function? Makes your posts hard to read. The eye bleeding red font isn't helping either.

[Gannon]

I started with the red, to differentiate his nested questions within my quoted words.

Way too difficult to follow without the color change. If you don't like red, Pam, what color [[other than white) would you prefer?!


More when I can find time to reply to Maxxy...

[Pam]

I started with the red, to differentiate his nested questions within my quoted words.

Way too difficult to follow without the color change. If you don't like red, Pam, what color [[other than white) would you prefer?!


More when I can find time to reply to Maxxy...

Oops sorry, didn't scroll back far enough to see where the red started.

I like blue, but I guess that won't show on a blue background. Keep your flaming red, I just won't read it.

[Jimaz]

what color [[other than white) would you prefer?!

LOL!

I just now discovered Spiro Disco Ball at Wikipedia's List Of Colors. Do you suppose it was named after Agnew?

[turkeycall]

The original question asked in this thread is "Does the Devil Always Do God's Dirty Work?"

Gannon answered this question by replying, "I think so." [Post of April 2, 3:29 PM]

That's really the problem - we think too much.

In the beginning God created man in His own image. Ever since that time man has been returning the favor.

God is not what we think He is, what we think He should be, or even what we wish He would be. God is what He says He is.

Begin by defining God according to His own testimony as revealed in the Scriptures. Though He is eternal [[Psalm 90: 1,2), unchangeable [[Malachi 3:6), almighty and all powerful [[Genesis 17: 1), all-knowing [[Psalm 139: 1-4), and present everywhere [[Jeremiah 23: 24), He is also sinless and hates sin [[Leviticus 19:2), fair and impartial [[Deuteronomy 32:4), faithful in keeping His promises [[2 Timothy 2: 13), benevolent [[Psalm 145: 9), merciful [[Psalm 145:9), shows undeserved kindness and is forgiving [[Exodus 34: 6,7).

By definition, God does no dirty work nor does He have a need for dirty work to be done.

Mankind, on the other hand, being sinful by nature [[having inherited our condition from our first parents, Adam and Eve) is fully capable of accomplishing all the dirty work that is done. Even the world suffers because of sin. Every earthquake and flood, every act of man's inhumanity to man, every traumatic, life-changing experience - even our own death is the direct result of sin in the world - not a particular sinful act, but sin as a general condition.

In the words of Pogo: "We have met the enemy, and it is us!"

[maxx]

turkeycall: That's really the problem - we think too much.

maxx: Are you kidding? Thinking too much is not a sin you can accuse most religionists of. They follow a religion so they can get a lot of pat answers.

The rest of your answer assumes that the Bible is the one source of "knowledge" about the source of life and the universe. I don't accept the idea that people are sinful by nature. If you approach children that way, you end up being very punitive to small children. After all, you don't want to be easy on someone who is naturally sinful. And this is based on an ancient story about a talking snake and a god/parent that preferred to "test" his creations instead of just letting them live in a paradise. This is a lousy model of parenting and of justice if people are still being held responsible for something that supposedly happened back in the fog of prehistory. People living in the 21st century should not be basing their approach to their children or their fellow human beings on this bronze age thinking.
This is the sort of misinformation and illogic that religions perpetuate.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "People living in the 21st century should not be basing their approach to their children or their fellow human beings on this"

Nor putting much stock in someones theory, who's only experience is a nanosecond sized window, in ratio to the age of the planet. Maxx, some things are bigger than you, some things you'll never understand.

[Stosh]

Quote: "People living in the 21st century should not be basing their approach to their children or their fellow human beings on this"

Nor putting much stock in someones theory, who's only experience is a nanosecond sized window, in ratio to the age of the planet. Maxx, some things are bigger than you, some things you'll never understand.

Wait a minute. You mean the Bible is lying about the time frame of creation?

[maxx]

Gannon: Where have these studies on reincarnation been published?

Gannon wrote: YOU are the one who relegates mythologies to fib or fiction status. I take them for face value, at least the basic concepts within them need to be seriously considered and their limited language and experience taken fully into account. For most of history, the stories were passed down VERY precisely by word of mouth.

maxx: How do you know this? That is not the case for most folk stories. They change over time.
Even the gospels which written relatively close to each other in time show how details are added to make the story more useful or palatable to the audience.

Gannon: These stories are crucial to our understanding of all existence, it is only in recent times they have been considered worthless, when indeed it was merely OUR bold modern misunderstanding of what memory of the earliest 'divine instructions' they have been trying to convey all this time.

maxx: Most myths are ancient attempts to explain natural phenomena or to perpetuate cultural models of courage, strength, and wisdom. So what would be an example of the crucial information in myths?
When I asked for sources of your assertion about invisible beings you said "various sources" and your own experience. This is pretty vague. People have all sorts of experiences while under stress from various sources. If you have real proof, you should cash in on James Randi's offer of a
$1 million for your proof.

[maxx]

Quote: "People living in the 21st century should not be basing their approach to their children or their fellow human beings on this"

Nor putting much stock in someones theory, who's only experience is a nanosecond sized window, in ratio to the age of the planet. Maxx, some things are bigger than you, some things you'll never understand.

I am not the only person who thinks that a good parent doesn't test his/her children's love or obedience by putting temptations in their way. I am not the only person who thinks that a person's character is a result of both nature and nurture. Can you quote one 20th century educator or scientist working in mental health that says that people are innately sinful? That is a purely fundie religionist stance which you should know by now comes out of the bronze age.

[Sstashmoo]

The problem with people like you is you think anyone cares about what you think. I have some news for you, nobody cares. And you're wasting keystrokes trying to convince anyone of your delusions. 90% of this country [[and more in the right situation) believe in a higher supernatural power, you're in a minority, deal with it.

[Stosh]

The problem with people like you is you think anyone cares about what you think. I have some news for you, nobody cares. And you're wasting keystrokes trying to convince anyone of your delusions. 90% of this country [[and more in the right situation) believe in a higher supernatural power, you're in a minority, deal with it.

Doctor, heal thyself.

[1KielsonDrive]

In the case of the catholic church, I think the answer is a definite and resounding Yes!

[maxx]

Having been brought up fundie, Joe Begeant has a real insight into the brain-damaged minds of fundamentalists.
"Since then I have spoken to others raised in fundamentalist families who had the same childhood experience of coming home and thinking everyone had been "raptured up." The Rapture -- the time when God takes up all saved Christians before he lets loose slaughter, pestilence and torture upon the earth -- is very real to people in whom its glorious and grisly promise was instilled and cultivated from birth. Even those who escape fundamentalism agree its marks are permanent. We may no longer believe in being raptured up, but the grim fundamentalist architecture of the soul stands in the background of our days. There is an apocalyptic starkness that remains somewhere inside us, one that tinges all of our feelings and thoughts of higher matters. Especially about death, oh beautiful and terrible death, for naked eternity is more real to us than to you secular humanists. I get mail from hundreds of folks like me, the different ones who fled and became lawyers and teachers and therapists and car mechanics, dope dealers and stockbrokers and waitresses. And every one of them has felt that thing we understand between us, that skulls piled clear to heaven redemption through absolute self worthlessness and you ain’t shit in the eyes of God so go bleed to death in some dark corner stab in the heart at those very moments when we should have been most proud of ourselves. Self-hate..."

[maxx]

http://www.boingboing.net/features/savage.html

"...Prayer doesn't work because someone out there is listening, it works because someone in here is listening... As far as I can see, the three main intolerant religions in the world aren't helping in that mission.
For all their talk of charity and knowledge, that they close their eyes to so much—to science, to birth control education, to abuses of power by some of their leaders, to evolution as provable and therefore factual [[the list is staggering)—illustrates a wide scope of bigotry..


Though a primary mover is the most complex and thus [[given Occam's razor) the least likely of all possible solutions to the particular problem of how we got here, I can't prove it true or false, and there's nothing to really discuss about it.

[Sstashmoo]

Sounds like Joe may be grappling with his understanding of his existence, just a blob of indiscriminate cells and chemicals. Man thats gotta be an empty feeling..

Quote: "how we got here,"

Oh that's easy, we came from monkeys, and there are many fossil specimens proving that, and pressure from the Church, keeps them under lock and key, probably next to that 100 mpg carburetor, and the battery the oil industry doesn't want you to know about. Where do monkeys come from? Algae spores, everybody knows that.. What a bunch of crap.

[maxx]

Sounds like Joe may be grappling with his understanding of his existence, just a blob of indiscriminate cells and chemicals. Man thats gotta be an empty feeling..

He's grappling with his fundamentalist upbringing as he notes in his article.

Quote: "how we got here,"

Oh that's easy, we came from monkeys, and there are many fossil specimens proving that, and pressure from the Church, keeps them under lock and key, probably next to that 100 mpg carburetor, and the battery the oil industry doesn't want you to know about. Where do monkeys come from? Algae spores, everybody knows that.. What a bunch of crap.

Your description is an absurd parody of evolution brought to you by fundies who smell their source of income threatened. If you don't understand it, you only embarass yourself by talking about your version of evolution.

[Sstashmoo]

You are deluded. Man it must suck to look upon others the way you do.

Quote: "absurd parody of evolution brought to you by fundies who smell their source of income threatened."

Oh is that right? So if you could find some key piece of evidence, you could abolish religion? Look Nancy Drew, if you could find a living half man-half ape, and led it by the hand to a Church, it wouldn't change anything. In my "parody" above, do you know the whereabouts of these fossils, that are supposedly under wraps?

Quote: "If you don't understand it, you only embarass yourself by talking about your version of evolution. "

Well, could you if you don't mind, explain where we came from - evolution in one paragraph, Condense it please.. I need a good laugh today.