Tea Party "leader" living off of entitlements

[Flanders]

Guffaw!!

Break your OWN windows!!

http://www.alan.com/

[gibran]

yup...really makes you wonder...if he didn't use that socialist government check to buy his firearms...

[Retroit]

Why would we expect someone not to receive entitlements that they contributed to and have a right to receive? Wouldn't that be like criticizing a liberal for taking a tax deduction?

[Detroitnerd]

Why would we expect someone not to receive entitlements that they contributed to and have a right to receive? Wouldn't that be like criticizing a liberal for taking a tax deduction?

But Retroit, government is the problem.

[gazhekwe]

How would he survive without the help of the government he deplores? That is the hypocrisy of his position. He wants to destroy for others what he has for himself.

[Retroit]

Where do you think the government got the money to help him? You are aware that the government took money out of his paycheck to provide these benefits?

[Detroitnerd]

Where do you think the government got the money to help him? You are aware that the government took money out of his paycheck to provide these benefits?

Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

[gibran]

personal responsiblity is extended to community and national responsibility or would you rather have a group of unorganizied people fighting off the hords of communists in the 1950's....

[Detroitnerd]

personal responsiblity is extended to community and national responsibility or would you rather have a group of unorganizied people fighting off the hords of communists in the 1950's....

Oh, I was just ribbing Retroit a bit, Gibran. I would prefer a Canadian- or European-style health system, for sure.

[gibran]

actually i was responding to retriot and reading yours..tied the two together, my bad.

[MoparDan]

Vanderboegh said he once worked as a warehouse manager but now lives on government disability checks. He said he receives $1,300 a month because of his congestive heart failure, diabetes and hypertension. He has private health insurance through his wife, who works for a company that sells forklift products.
Born in Michigan and raised in Ohio, Vanderboegh said he was not always a libertarian. He once was active in the Young Socialist Alliance and the Progressive Labor Party. “In my youth, I was a communist,” he said. But in the mid-1970s, Vanderboegh read Friedrich von Hayek’s “The Road to Serfdom,” among other books, and had an epiphany.
“From that point on, I could never take Marxism-Leninism seriously again,” Vanderboegh said.
He said he long opposed President Obama because he believed the president has “collectivism” tendencies. But he became especially energized during the health-care debate.
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The asshole goes from one political extreme to the other, then sucks eagerly on the tit he claims to hate so much. Oxygen is wasted on this piece of crap jerk.

[East Detroit]

Where do you think the government got the money to help him? You are aware that the government took money out of his paycheck to provide these benefits?

As well as our paychecks. So, if he is against taking money from others, he should just stop.

[Jimaz]

A specific link for posterity in case the story scrolls off the above webpage: “Smash Windows!�: Tea Party Leader Is On Government Disability

[gazhekwe]

They took the money to help him out of my paycheck too. If he doesn't want to help me, why should I help him? See where that kind of talk will get you?

[oladub]

They took the money to help him out of my paycheck too. If he doesn't want to help me, why should I help him? See where that kind of talk will get you?

Then don't help him. Help him out if you want out of compassion, religious belief, or whatever but you are not his slave.

Had governments not helped themselves to so much of this guy's earnings, he would have had the option of buying more insurance. The idea that someone who does not like a given involuntary program should somehow be less entitled to it's benefits is nonsense; just a giddly and illogical liberal talking point. Now if an Amish guy who had the option of refusing to pay into Social Security all his life demanded Social Security, that would be a different story.

It's like someone who opposes the insurance companies' huge profits refusing to collect a payout from their insurance policy. What would be the logic of that? How is collecting ftom a voluntary insurance policy different from collecting from an involuntary government insurance program?

[Retroit]

I find it disconcerting that the people who want to give the government the power over health care also believe that people of certain political ideologies should not be receiving entitlements.

Is this how government will manage health care? Only those who conform to the "correct" ideology get treatment?

Maybe we have more to fear than I first thought.

[Ray1936]

Far as I'm concerned, the biggest problem with healthcare in the United States is arrogant, pomp-ass, money grubbing physicians. Oh, some are with hearts, but the majority I've come across fit my description.

Worked in a hospital for fifteen years [[second career). I've heard the horror stories nurses tell when a doc flips his top over some trivial matter. But you ain't seen a person really mad until you've told a physician that the Wall Street Journal didn't arrive this morning.

[gazhekwe]

Retroit and Oladub, sorry, I am actually in favor of him getting help he needs. I was trying to illustrate the fallacy of his position, which seems to be in favor of him getting the help he needs, but not everybody else.

[Retroit]

Far as I'm concerned, the biggest problem with healthcare in the United States is arrogant, pomp-ass, money grubbing physicians. Oh, some are with hearts, but the majority I've come across fit my description.

Worked in a hospital for fifteen years [[second career). I've heard the horror stories nurses tell when a doc flips his top over some trivial matter. But you ain't seen a person really mad until you've told a physician that the Wall Street Journal didn't arrive this morning.

That's true. But doctors, hospitals, and other medical facilities get away with charging a lot because their patients are not paying out of pocket and are kind of left out-of-the-loop. The costs are passed on to the insurance company or government. Now, I don't expect a person to have $100,000 in their pocket to pay for an emergency surgery, but I do believe that by putting the burden on patients to shop around for doctors and treatments and by putting the burden on doctors to embarrassingly ask patients for outrageous fees is the only way to drive costs down.

Some think that the government can keep costs down by price caps or by limiting treatment options, but this will not be effective because it will apply across the board to every doctor/hospital, and will stifle competition and efficiency attempts.
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No need to apologize, gazhekwe, I appreciate your argument. I just don't think this man or many others would be requesting government assistance if they didn't have to contribute to such programs in the first place.

[gazhekwe]

I wasn't apologizing, just clarifying. I think we all contribute for the purpose of maintaining a safety net for people in need. Some people feel that is a great cause, and I happen to be one of them. The common good benefits us all.

[oladub]

I think we all contribute for the purpose of maintaining a safety net for people in need. Some people feel that is a great cause, and I happen to be one of them. The common good benefits us all.

Maintaining a safety net for people in need can be done privately or publicly. Both of those catagories can be accomplished in a number of ways. For instance, the federal or state governments can provide safety nets just as can religious organizations or insurance companies. However, if one mandatory solution costs twice as much as another to accomplish the same goal, the common good has taken a hit. For instance, If Ontario [[or Michigan) provides the same universal coverage as Washington DC for half the price, then half the money that Washington DC spends is wasted and could better be used by taxpayers for other things including the common good.

After a few days, we are beginning to read stories about AT&T, John Deere, and other employers talking about laying off employees to offset new health care expenses. If the plan had, like Ontario's plan, cost half as much to provide equally good health care, these companies might only have to lay off half as many employees and that would be better for the common good.

[gazhekwe]

I think it is incredibly dumb to tie health care to employers. But we have made a start. Changes will be easier than original passage.

[firstandten]

I think it is incredibly dumb to tie health care to employers. But we have made a start. Changes will be easier than original passage.

Back during WWII when this system was established it made sense for us due to the tight labor market . But like everything else it needs to be re-evaluated and adjusted and possibily changed. However this system has been around so long and people has because so used to it, a single payer system may be too much of a collective shock. I think as a result you are right changes will be easier and we have made a start.

[Retroit]

I think it is incredibly dumb to tie health care to employers. But we have made a start. Changes will be easier than original passage.

I agree. I think one way to reverse this is to make employers notify employees how much money health care is actually costing them [[total cost of health care employer pays divided by number of employees covered by the plan).

I'm assuming that companies contribute much more than what is taken out of employee paychecks. If not, I'm getting a great deal, as the amount taken from my paycheck doesn't even come close to what I'm hearing that people are paying for individual insurance.

Bottom line: if employees actually knew how much they were paying [[or how much their employer is not paying them in wages so they can provide health care), this would encourage employees to consider buying individual plans, which could encourage competition and drive costs down.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I think it is incredibly dumb to tie health care to employers."

It is being tied to employers, because nothing has really changed. Other than the fact, people that have been exercising their right to opt out can no longer do so.

It was the same way with car insurance. A lot of people had no insurance, Sec of state didn't even ask to see any proof when one bought license plates. Reform was a sweet deal for insurers, they fired all their sales people, the police were now their sales people [[Reference 16,500 new IRS agents), picked up millions of new customers and could charge whatever they wanted. Exactly how this is going to be. You people talking about this being a first step towards a more socialized system is laughable beyond belief. This IS the step. It's done.