Health Care and Detroit: Killed By Government

[Detroitnerd]

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
We, as a region, have determined that we are not interested in solving social problems. Instead, we shall leave areas that have social problems, thereby ensuring we're free of them and that those problems continue to fester. Ever since the 1920s and the advent of the automobile, we have decided, collectively, as metro Detroiters, that we will simply pick up stakes and move to a better place, without social problems. Then those problems will be "their" problems and we won't have to worry about them anymore.

Not true. Detroit's problems are self-imposed. Before "the 1920s", Detroiters took care of each other. To this day, suburbanites take care of each other. [[I'm speaking in generalizations here. I realize it is not as cut-and-dry.) It is very hard for "the region" to solve the problems in Detroit. Consider how hard it is for me to even bring up the matter on an internet forum. What kind of response do you think I would get if I started knocking on doors in Detroit and asking "Excuse me, do you have any social problems that I can solve?"

So the people who pulled all their money and hard work and equity out of Detroit had nothing to do with causing problems in Detroit? That's a strange thing to say. If a high-earning father were to leave his family, would you say that his mother, now forced to take a job and try to raise children without his income and assistance, has "self-imposed" problems? That makes about as much sense as your assertion.

As for your little comedy sketch about you coming into the city to knock on doors for problem-solving, that's not so far-fetched. Take a look at what Mark Covington has done with his Georgia Street Community Garden. Are you aware that many of the people who've helped transform his neighborhood don't even live there? That they come in from places in the suburbs to assist? No, Retroit, you don't have to knock on anonymous doors. There are plenty of organizations set up to help. You can plant fruit trees with Mark Covington. You can tear down teetering houses with John George. You can find out from the archdiocese how to tutor young pupils. There are many ways to get involved. And you would also learn a great deal from the experience. Yes, please do get involved!

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
And so you wind up with Detroit being largely poor. Then, when the people who have enough money to leave Detroit go to a certain suburb, the people with the most resources and income who live there fear that the newcomers will bring their social problems with them, so they pick up stakes and leave. And so that suburb starts to become poorer. And then its residents consider moving to the next seemingly welcome suburb. But little do they know that the people in the next belt of development will fear social problems and move even farther away.

It is true that as a population increase, wealth stratification becomes more obvious.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that as a city [[region? state?) becomes more populous, it's only natural that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer?

In earlier times, Detroit had a greater mix of income groups living among each other. But I refuse to believe that poverty equates to social problems. Maybe this is a stubbornness on my part to accept the concept that poverty is bad and wealth is good, but I've seen enough good poor people and bad rich people to know that wealth and virtue are not inseparably linked.

Sorry, I don't understand what you're talking about. Why bring morality-based terms such as "good" and "bad" into it? It confuses the issue. The point is, poverty breaks down the human spirit. We fight against it, but if we're in a ghetto, the ghetto often wins.

In fact, in my life, I often think of how the people who grew up with no amenities, no support and a poor education often think nobody is entitled to anything. Whereas I was raised with public pools, parks, after-school programs, good schools and more amenities, and I believe we should all have them. Maybe your upbringing has affected what you think other people should have.

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
But if you want all of "us" to examine Detroit's apparent pathologies, are you willing to bring that same scrutiny to bear on the rest of the region?

Sure. Everyone should try to improve their world. But it starts locally. Start within your neighborhood, then your city, then region, state, country, world. But we have limited time and resources. Suburbanites are busy enough taking care of their own communities. What are Detroiters doing to take care of theirs?

I guess I question what your definition of "world" is. Your world, to you, seems to be your suburban community. And if your world really ends there, then you are not in a good position to care for it. Because no community is an island unto itself. Do you really think that a businessperson deciding where to locate a business takes the time to research the difference between your "world" and "Detroit"? They don't. And so, many of the benefits that would accrue to your "world" simply never show up. And it's because the whole region is filled with dysfunctional people who believe that a collection of increasingly fragile suburban governments surrounding a city plagued with social ills is perfectly OK. Nobody is going to make a distinction between Bingham Farms and Ferndale and Royal Oak and Detroit; it's "Detroit" to all of the people in the country. And your insistence that "Detroit is to blame for Detroit's problems" doesn't carry any water beyond the metro boundaries.

So, it follows that to improve your world, you improve the region as a whole. A vibrant, functioning central city with the means to ameliorate the social problems that come with cities, desirable suburbs for those who prefer that sort of lifestyle, and farms in the countryside to support our way of life more locally. And the only way this can happen is if we have a larger government for the region. Think of it, Retroit: You could actually have a say in how the city is run! You could have a vote in Detroit! You could help turn out the crooks and politicians who have overtaken city government! I think it's a hopeful scenario.

Originally Posted by Detroitnerd
To examine that we all have our part to play in creating a perfect shithole of a city? And that we all share a certain responsibility for that? I am genuinely curious.

I don't see it this way. If no one ever left Detroit, its population would be 4.4 million. You think that might cause a few problems? Suburbanites did not create social problems in Detroit before deciding to flee to the suburbs. Most of the problems were created by those who stayed. I would be in favor of more regional cooperation, but I wonder if Detroiters are really receptive to "white suburbanites" coming into "their city" and "telling them what to do".

You know, Retroit, repeating what you believe over and over is not how you prove something. What you do is you explain, using facts and statistics, your point. This is how we separate myth from fact. But perhaps that isn't why you're posting here. Perhaps you are only interested in perpetuating myths about a place you regard as outside your "world."

In which case, we'll freely take them -- for what they're worth.

[Retroit]

Well, I will agree that when blacks were slaves, they didn't have equal opportunities. And before Civil Rights and Affirmative Action, blacks didn't have equal opportunities. But these were all before my time. At some point in our evolution, we are going to have to realize that we all have equal opportunities. I really hope that no black child growing up today is being fed the lame excuse that they can't succeed in life because "it's a white man's world".

[Detroitnerd]

Well, I will agree that when blacks were slaves, they didn't have equal opportunities. And before Civil Rights and Affirmative Action, blacks didn't have equal opportunities. But these were all before my time. At some point in our evolution, we are going to have to realize that we all have equal opportunities. I really hope that no black child growing up today is being fed the lame excuse that they can't succeed in life because "it's a white man's world".

Is that any different than saying they can't succeed because of the pathologies that afflict the black family?

[Retroit]

Oh, yes. Poor people aren't all criminals. But let's say you put people in a place where there is no way out.

There is always a way out. Why be so hopeless?

Where the personal and institutional racism are so pervasive they can't walk down the street outside the city without scrutiny from cops.

If you are not doing anything wrong, there is nothing to fear. Once cops realize they have nothing to gain by going after you, they will focus their efforts elsewhere.

Where the schools are poorly equipped and filled with underachievers who threaten the bright students.

Are those underachievers white kids bussed in from the suburbs? Or are they black kids who prey on each other. [[Some of this happens in the 'burbs, too, by the way.) And who poorly equips the schools? White suburbanites? Or are they blacks who seem more concerned about themselves than the children.

Where you can't get adequate city services.

Because money is being misallocated by whom?

Where the air quality is so poor that many people have asthma.

Air quality is better now than it was when Detroit was majority white.

Where the libraries are small and often closed.

And where they are not used enough to justify keeping them opened.

Where you're so poor that you can't even get adequate food and you actually suffer brain damage.

But you are never far away from a liquor store and a crack house.

Where you can't even get fresh food without traveling for a mile or two, but you have no car.

And grocery stores can't stay in business due to the high cost of shoplifting.

Where your father can't get any work so your mother has to provide for the family, and your dad, if he stays, feels useless and impotent.

Daddy's first obligation is to set an example for his children. If he has to take 5 menial jobs to provide a meager existence for his family, he has done his job.

Where people are much more likely to be alcoholics, drug-abusers, etc.

Well, stop drinking and taking drugs. Make it socially taboo instead of a way of life.

You see, you can get out of poverty, but that isn't the same thing as getting out of the ghetto.

Then change the ghetto. Detroiters need to get together and say "we are not going to go on like this. We are going to better ourselves! And we are going to stop making excuses and blaming others. This is our city. This is our family. This is my life. We don't need Bing to come and help us. We don't need Obama to help us. We don't need Big Daddy Whitey to help us. We are tired of waiting. We will do it ourselves."

...urban poverty seems to be one of the major, recurring concerns in your posts.

Only because I am trying to dispel myths such as...

...enforced poverty...

Enforced by whom? White people are forcing blacks to be poor?

It's quite another to have the full weight of society and individual prejudice arrayed against you.

No one has the full weight of society on them. If everyone would take care of themselves and quit worrying about all this "social justice" gobbledy-gook, we would have this problem licked by tomorrow. Screw all the prejudices people have against you - what do they know? White people aren't spending every moment of their lives thinking of how they can hate black people; they are going about their business to make their lives better. Do the same.

Maybe you don't want to deepen your understanding of Detroit's poverty.

Oh no, I do. Trust me, I appreciate you and others explaining the mindset of Detroiters and/or blacks. Some of it sounds so unfathomable to me that I don't know if I'm really understanding what you are trying to say. I've met many successful black people and they think like I do, so you are providing me with a very insightful perspective.

Maybe for you it's just a convenient thing to blame for problems you don't want to see your role in helping create and perpetuate.

I have yet to be told how I have helped create or perpetuate any problem in Detroit. If every Detroiter lived the way I do, I believe it would be a much nicer place. [[But perhaps a bit boring. )

[Detroitnerd]

There is always a way out. Why be so hopeless? If you are not doing anything wrong, there is nothing to fear. Once cops realize they have nothing to gain by going after you, they will focus their efforts elsewhere. Are those underachievers white kids bussed in from the suburbs? Or are they black kids who prey on each other. [[Some of this happens in the 'burbs, too, by the way.) And who poorly equips the schools? White suburbanites? Or are they blacks who seem more concerned about themselves than the children. Because money is being misallocated by whom? Air quality is better now than it was when Detroit was majority white. And where they are not used enough to justify keeping them opened. But you are never far away from a liquor store and a crack house. And grocery stores can't stay in business due to the high cost of shoplifting. Daddy's first obligation is to set an example for his children. If he has to take 5 menial jobs to provide a meager existence for his family, he has done his job. Well, stop drinking and taking drugs. Make it socially taboo instead of a way of life. Then change the ghetto. Detroiters need to get together and say "we are not going to go on like this. We are going to better ourselves! And we are going to stop making excuses and blaming others. This is our city. This is our family. This is my life. We don't need Bing to come and help us. We don't need Obama to help us. We don't need Big Daddy Whitey to help us. We are tired of waiting. We will do it ourselves." Only because I am trying to dispel myths such as... Enforced by whom? White people are forcing blacks to be poor? No one has the full weight of society on them. If everyone would take care of themselves and quit worrying about all this "social justice" gobbledy-gook, we would have this problem licked by tomorrow. Screw all the prejudices people have against you - what do they know? White people aren't spending every moment of their lives thinking of how they can hate black people; they are going about their business to make their lives better. Do the same. Oh no, I do. Trust me, I appreciate you and others explaining the mindset of Detroiters and/or blacks. Some of it sounds so unfathomable to me that I don't know if I'm really understanding what you are trying to say. I've met many successful black people and they think like I do, so you are providing me with a very insightful perspective. I have yet to be told how I have helped create or perpetuate any problem in Detroit. If every Detroiter lived the way I do, I believe it would be a much nicer place. [[But perhaps a bit boring. )

Retroit, it is astounding to me that a person can expend so much effort to reply to somebody without having a single thing to say. Without finding a single fact or statistic to support their responses. Apparently without a single moment of reflection or self-examination. You are not participating in a discussion. You are just wasting our time.

[Retroit]

So the people who pulled all their money and hard work and equity out of Detroit had nothing to do with causing problems in Detroit?

Detroit can be built with the money and hard work and equity of its current residents. This was true 100 years ago and is true today.

If a high-earning father were to leave his family, would you say that his mother, now forced to take a job and try to raise children without his income and assistance, has "self-imposed" problems?

No, I'm saying that just because the rich "father" has left does not mean that the family can't live a happy, peaceful, crime-free life. If the remaining "mother" instills the same values as she did when "daddy" was around and doesn't accept a lack of wealth as an excuse for under-achievement, then they are no worse off. And of course it helps when the real moms and dads [[as opposed to their inconsequential civic counterparts) stick together.

As for your little comedy sketch about you coming into the city to knock on doors for problem-solving, that's not so far-fetched. Take a look at what Mark Covington has done with his Georgia Street Community Garden. Are you aware that many of the people who've helped transform his neighborhood don't even live there? That they come in from places in the suburbs to assist? No, Retroit, you don't have to knock on anonymous doors. There are plenty of organizations set up to help. You can plant fruit trees with Mark Covington. You can tear down teetering houses with John George. You can find out from the archdiocese how to tutor young pupils. There are many ways to get involved. And you would also learn a great deal from the experience. Yes, please do get involved!

Thank you for the invitation, but I'm sure once you get all the people of Detroit get involved, my efforts will be unnecessary. Good luck.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that as a city [[region? state?) becomes more populous, it's only natural that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer?

No. I'm saying that rich people and poor people gravitate to their respective areas. As a population grows, these groups tend to separate further apart. [[Although it does seem that the rich are getting richer.)

Sorry, I don't understand what you're talking about. Why bring morality-based terms such as "good" and "bad" into it? It confuses the issue.

Uh, because that has been the point I've been trying to make since I started this discussion. You seem to want to place the blame on poverty, and I'm saying the blame is on people who act badly.

The point is, poverty breaks down the human spirit. We fight against it, but if we're in a ghetto, the ghetto often wins.

You shouldn't think this way. Poverty builds strength. Poverty builds endurance. Poverty builds hope. Don't let the ghetto win. Don't let your "place" win. Let yourself win. Let yourself have the freedom to escape the bonds and barriers you believe the rest of the world has set up for you to fail.

In fact, in my life, I often think of how the people who grew up with no amenities, no support and a poor education often think nobody is entitled to anything. Whereas I was raised with public pools, parks, after-school programs, good schools and more amenities, and I believe we should all have them. Maybe your upbringing has affected what you think other people should have.

Yes and no. I was very fortunate to grow up in a loving family in a safe neighborhood and go to good schools, so I think everyone should have those things. But I also know people who grew up poor, orphaned, rejected, uneducated, and yet decided they wanted better, and achieved it.

I guess I question what your definition of "world" is. Your world, to you, seems to be your suburban community. And if your world really ends there, then you are not in a good position to care for it. Because no community is an island unto itself.

No, I'm saying people should prioritize. Local community takes precedence over trying to "save the world".

Do you really think that a businessperson deciding where to locate a business takes the time to research the difference between your "world" and "Detroit"? They don't. And so, many of the benefits that would accrue to your "world" simply never show up. And it's because the whole region is filled with dysfunctional people who believe that a collection of increasingly fragile suburban governments surrounding a city plagued with social ills is perfectly OK. Nobody is going to make a distinction between Bingham Farms and Ferndale and Royal Oak and Detroit; it's "Detroit" to all of the people in the country. And your insistence that "Detroit is to blame for Detroit's problems" doesn't carry any water beyond the metro boundaries.

Huh? I must be misunderstanding you, because, of course, companies do all kinds of research before locating businesses or branches. The "whole region" of Detroit is not dysfunctional.

So, it follows that to improve your world, you improve the region as a whole. A vibrant, functioning central city with the means to ameliorate the social problems that come with cities, desirable suburbs for those who prefer that sort of lifestyle, and farms in the countryside to support our way of life more locally.

I can't argue with that.

And the only way this can happen is if we have a larger government for the region. Think of it, Retroit: You could actually have a say in how the city is run! You could have a vote in Detroit! You could help turn out the crooks and politicians who have overtaken city government! I think it's a hopeful scenario.

I'm not sure the people of Detroit would be willing to forfeit their majority rule to the suburbanites, but I agree, it would do wonders for the city to kick the powers-that-be out.

You know, Retroit, repeating what you believe over and over is not how you prove something. What you do is you explain, using facts and statistics, your point. This is how we separate myth from fact. But perhaps that isn't why you're posting here. Perhaps you are only interested in perpetuating myths about a place you regard as outside your "world."

In which case, we'll freely take them -- for what they're worth.

Well, at least the feelings are mutual.

[Retroit]

Retroit, it is astounding to me that a person can expend so much effort to reply to somebody without having a single thing to say. Without finding a single fact or statistic to support their responses. Apparently without a single moment of reflection or self-examination. You are not participating in a discussion. You are just wasting our time.

How about if you provide the facts and statistics and I will prove that they support my point of view.

[Detroitnerd]

Detroit can be built with the money and hard work and equity of its current residents. This was true 100 years ago and is true today. No, I'm saying that just because the rich "father" has left does not mean that the family can't live a happy, peaceful, crime-free life. If the remaining "mother" instills the same values as she did when "daddy" was around and doesn't accept a lack of wealth as an excuse for under-achievement, then they are no worse off. And of course it helps when the real moms and dads [[as opposed to their inconsequential civic counterparts) stick together. Thank you for the invitation, but I'm sure once you get all the people of Detroit get involved, my efforts will be unnecessary. Good luck. No. I'm saying that rich people and poor people gravitate to their respective areas. As a population grows, these groups tend to separate further apart. [[Although it does seem that the rich are getting richer.) Uh, because that has been the point I've been trying to make since I started this discussion. You seem to want to place the blame on poverty, and I'm saying the blame is on people who act badly. You shouldn't think this way. Poverty builds strength. Poverty builds endurance. Poverty builds hope. Don't let the ghetto win. Don't let your "place" win. Let yourself win. Let yourself have the freedom to escape the bonds and barriers you believe the rest of the world has set up for you to fail. Yes and no. I was very fortunate to grow up in a loving family in a safe neighborhood and go to good schools, so I think everyone should have those things. But I also know people who grew up poor, orphaned, rejected, uneducated, and yet decided they wanted better, and achieved it. No, I'm saying people should prioritize. Local community takes precedence over trying to "save the world". Huh? I must be misunderstanding you, because, of course, companies do all kinds of research before locating businesses or branches. The "whole region" of Detroit is not dysfunctional. I can't argue with that. I'm not sure the people of Detroit would be willing to forfeit their majority rule to the suburbanites, but I agree, it would do wonders for the city to kick the powers-that-be out. Well, at least the feelings are mutual.

How interesting. I put all this time into trying to communicate with you and this is what I get. I get the sense that you are not at all interested in doing anything to help Detroit, or to do anything to improve and enhance life beyond your small world. And I also get a whiff of condescending contempt from you. Having been pretty up-front with you and respectful, I am going to say that I have wasted my time trying to have a conversation with you. You seem determined to go on viewing life through the comfortable prism you always have. Almost as if you're jamming your fingers in your ears and screaming like a child. Too bad for the region. Oh well. Have a nice life, Retroit. I'm sure I'll bump into you in other threads.

[313WX]

I get the sense that you are not at all interested in doing anything to help Detroit, or to do anything to improve and enhance life beyond your small world.

It took you that long to get hipped onto his game?

[maxx]

Retroit: And Detroit has more undereducated because children don't want to go to school, their parents don't force them to...

maxx: And a lot of them settled in Southfield where their kids may go to school but don't do squat for the most part. Both Southfield high schools have small schools for the motivated kids within larger schools that are little more than warehouses where little is expected of the kids from what I have seen and even less is done. They get shuffled through four years of high school doing as little as possible, learning as little as possible, but their parents are happy because they "graduate". The kids get to walk down the aisle in their caps and gowns and get diplomas that are little better than attendance records. Everyone is happy until the kids look for jobs or try to go on to community college. I don't know if reality ever sets in or if they just find someone else to blame. Without jobs or education, the kids are likely to end up in the criminal justice system which continues to be a growth industry.

[maxx]

"The point is, poverty breaks down the human spirit. We fight against it, but if we're in a ghetto, the ghetto often wins."

maxx: If there is too much emphasis on material wealth and not enough people talking about what is really important in life, you end up with people who cannot forego immediate gratification and will do anything for a few bucks. I don't think the gangster culture has helped the majority of African Americans. It instills the wrong values and sucks what little money there is in the community. The black muslims used to go around their communities talking about the destructive forces of drugs and crime to young people face to face. I don't know if they still do that. What are the churches doing besides handing out free food? I heard of one program about values for young people, but I don't know if it is still going on. Does anyone even talk about the economics of having children as a teenager? That would make a worthwhile economics lesson.

[TKshreve]

Wow Dnerd. I am surprised by how much typing you've done. That is not your style....... always been more of the hit and run poster imo. A new leaf?

Ghetto studies, white flight, lack of funds for social ills aside....help me get by one question that has been reiterated by many here. Where has all of the integrity gone?

When I was in 5th grade, that exact word sat on the wall throughout the year. It had a definition underneath it that read: Doing what's right when no one is looking. This belief is very strong with me, and helped shape my existence [[often stumbling along the way). But without that fundamental measuring stick, I would be much less of a man than I am today. Believe me, I am not perfect. Far from it. But I certainly can say I'm presentable due to my own decisions in life.

So where has it gone? Why can't we get it back en masse? How much does it cost? Do we have to pay some bigwhig exec to come in here and re-teach it to everyone? Like Bobb? Why do many politicians and big corporations lack it? Do you not think it would improve life in Detroit if more people had it?

Why do people dismiss it?








Maybe you think this principle is silly, trite only exists in a dream world with unicorns, rainbows and butterflies................ maybe not. Contrary to what many people may think, there are communities where the average passer-by actually does give a $hit how your day is going when he/she asks [[I think of the South when I say this). Quickly though, areas throughout the United States are losing this attitude. Sad.

[Retroit]

How interesting. I put all this time into trying to communicate with you and this is what I get. I get the sense that you are not at all interested in doing anything to help Detroit, or to do anything to improve and enhance life beyond your small world. And I also get a whiff of condescending contempt from you. Having been pretty up-front with you and respectful, I am going to say that I have wasted my time trying to have a conversation with you. You seem determined to go on viewing life through the comfortable prism you always have. Almost as if you're jamming your fingers in your ears and screaming like a child. Too bad for the region. Oh well. Have a nice life, Retroit. I'm sure I'll bump into you in other threads.

The feelings are mutual. When are you going to come out to my community and enhance my life?

[Detroitnerd]

Wow Dnerd. I am surprised by how much typing you've done. That is not your style....... always been more of the hit and run poster imo. A new leaf?

Yes, I'm trying to be less of a dick on this forum. Thanks for noticing.

Ghetto studies, white flight, lack of funds for social ills aside....help me get by one question that has been reiterated by many here. Where has all of the integrity gone?

Maybe a part of that is that the people at the top set the tone. When the people in the upper echelons of power are liars, cheaters, thieves, bribe-takers, do-nothings, race-baiters and pimps, it trickles down. I'm gonna take the easy route on this one and just blame Washington, D.C. and Wall Street.

[canuck]

Detroitnerd you are dead on. I wish you had left some meat on the bone left for me to chew on but
respectfully, you done the deed. As far as Retroit's narrowmindedness [[étroitesse d'esprit) , I'm afraid that this will remain Detroit's metro region biggest hurdle. Beneath Retroit's veneer of goodwill there is an insistence on african-americans' general inability to overcome obstacles, make-do, let alone thrive. That cliché was used [[abused) for so long that it doesnt surprise. It does merit discussion and you do a great job of supplying the reasons for ghettoization. There are many people whose sympathy lie with a eurocentric narrative of american dreaming and achieving. They cannot bear to allow a more suppressed underdog they have already pigeonholed as undeserving.

Back when Coleman Young was elected, I can only imagine how many allies he really could count on to do what he managed to do...

Maybe a part of that is that the people at the top set the tone. When the people in the upper echelons of power are liars, cheaters, thieves, bribe-takers, do-nothings, race-baiters and pimps, it trickles down. I'm gonna take the easy route on this one and just blame Washington, D.C. and Wall Street.

Why beat up on the sacred cows Detroitnerd? Dont you know you cant argue with success?

[Retroit]

Beneath Retroit's veneer of goodwill there is an insistence on african-americans' general inability to overcome obstacles, make-do, let alone thrive.

If that's what you took from my posts, then I have done a poor job of expressing myself. I believe that African-Americans do have the ability, but because of an erroneous mindset that has been instilled in them by the African-American race-mongers, they have been led to believe that it is the White Man's obligation to hand them the world on a silver platter.

[canuck]

Yes, I'm sorry, the white man has been so generous all along. The white woman a little less so. I'm trying to devise a hierarchy from the TOP ECHELONS [[to paraphrase Detroitnerd) on down to the less deserving. Can you help me do that?

[Retroit]

There is no racial hierarchy. And there is no "deserving" class. Make your life and the lives around you better and quit obsessing about the TOP ECHELON.

Am I totally missing your point? I don't think we're connecting on this. I seem to be just restating the obvious, yet I am accused of being way off the mark. What am I missing here?

[maxx]

Retroit: Watch how fast America becomes a communist country when Obamites who thought they were going to get free health care find out that their government is going to force [[i.e. communism) them to buy health insurance.

maxx: By communist do you mean totalitarian country like what Cheney was doing creating an imperial presidency? Or do you mean a nation where people share things without personal possessions like the early xtians? Is there a "communist" country in the world today?

[rb336]

Is there a "communist" country in the world today?

no, and there never has been. the "communists" in the USSR and China were nothing of the sort. they merely replaced an aristocracy with an oligarchy

[Retroit]

maxx: By communist do you mean totalitarian country like what Cheney was doing creating an imperial presidency? Or do you mean a nation where people share things without personal possessions like the early xtians? Is there a "communist" country in the world today?

Neither, by your definitions. I should have used a capital "C" to clarify I was talking about a political system, not a voluntary fraternal organization. My definition of Communism is the same as you might find in a dictionary: a form of government characterized by state planning and control of the economy, a one-party [[or nearly so) political structure, and an emphasis on the requirements of the state rather than the individual.

China is nominally Communist, but they have greatly embraced capitalism and are surpassing countries that are doing just the opposite. [[Ring any bells?)

[canuck]

Yes China is doing well according to dictates that the World Bank would approve of. China is doing well because it is creating the wealth by making the things western countries used to be able to do until the middleman; the broker decided otherwise.

The problem is if you decided to retool and hire to make all the stuff low-end to high-end that western companies used to make on their home turf, the turnaround would be dramatically slow. China keeps its currency artificially low, it has loads of billionaires and an endless supply of zilchionnaires to do the dirty work. You are dead on retroit, China is doing all the right things and more since it is nominally communist, so it can dictate what is best for the state and has embraced capitalism to build monster homes for CEO's and the party nomenklatura.

There finally isnt much of a difference between both systems apart from the holy constitution...
They might be interested in buying up a lot of the vacant lots in metro Detroit too if you are looking for opportunities;

http://www.montrealgazette.com/Quebe...492/story.html