Health Care and Detroit: Killed By Government

[noula]

The collapse of democratic liberal socialism is before us. Detroit is a study in the destructive power of this statism and the repeated government interventions in the civil society.

The collapse of great societies can arrive quite suddenly. Look after your health!
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north828.html

[d.mcc]

Man, I want whatever you're drinking...

[[btw, Detroit is more of a study of what happens when the city is neglected by the rest of the nation)

[noula]

Neglected by the rest of the nation? Ha!

Detroit was perhaps the richest city in the world in 1950. Its now a pale shadow of its former self, not more than a cadaver. Since WW2, Detroit has experience almost every sort of state intervention such as "slum clearance", the freeways, destruction of public transit, the rise of state protected unionism, federal troops and absurd tax levels to maintain the ever growing government and .its programs, which in turn accelerated the collapse of the tax base. Many of these mortal wounds were self-inflicted.

[313WX]

Before the "Detroit-No" trolls arrive, if this is just another Conservative bitch fest about the government taking their guns and precious pennies away, could we please move it to the Non-Detroit section?

[pffft]

This nutbag claims the "media" are ignoring the "Detroit is dying" story...does he know a national news magazine bought a house and is documenting it from inside?

[Bearinabox]

The collapse of democratic liberal socialism is before us. Detroit is a study in the destructive power of this statism and the repeated government interventions in the civil society.

The collapse of great societies can arrive quite suddenly. Look after your health!
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north828.html

Oh, fuck you.

[canuck]

You chose to live in a city and province with a pretty heavy handed government Noula! It's a liberal environment with a pretty successful and enviable status. Its funny how folks like to paint a portrait of a hands off government being a boon to business and society. The economy generated by the military industry from tax dollars in the US was by far the most profitable for all corporations involved. It gave these companies an edge they otherwise wouldnt have had. So yes the government has been heavyhanded but businesses like GM and Boeing, General Dynamics,etc...
would not have been major players worldwide without subsidies and govt contracts. In Canada, the same applies, and I would say now is the time to maybe sart spreading money in helping people get better health care, transit, education, and opportunities for sustainable industry. I hope Detroit with its universities and talent pool will create a new city at the forefront of this movement.

[Hermod]

The economy generated by the military industry from tax dollars in the US was by far the most profitable for all corporations involved. It gave these companies an edge they otherwise wouldnt have had. So yes the government has been heavyhanded but businesses like GM and Boeing, General Dynamics,etc...
would not have been major players worldwide without subsidies and govt contracts.

While GM did a lot of government business during WWII [[as did the rest of the nation), the government business was no where near as profitable for the auto industry and the auto supply industry as the post-war automotive boom was to those companies. The consumers did without during the depression because of finances and did without during the war years because of shortages.

The aircraft industry and the ship building industry had fantastic profits in WWII. The auto industry not so much.

[Danny]

The government didn't kill health care, neither did President Obama and democrats. Health care system in America needs to be reform. It should be treated as a birthright as air and water, not to have you or anyone pay just to have a doctor save your life.

[English]

I guess I'm not sure how this thread is sufficiently about Detroit. There's an interesting thread in ND issues about health care.

[Detroitej72]

Many of these mortal wounds were self-inflicted.

The biggest culprit to blame for Detroit's decline was the racist mentality of the "good old days". People fled whenever a black family moved within a stone's throw of their homes. This was accelerated by predatory real estate agents who acted upon people's fears and bought up their houses and flipped them. This block busting tactic has been well documented.

Some of the Great Society programs, although well intentioned, didn't help things. I'm thinking specifically of the practice of giving HUD homes to folks who frankly, didn't put any value on things they were given, and destroyed the property. To lay the blame solely on the programs however, is totally denying reality.

[rooms222]

To broaden out the subject, I think that the boom and bust cycle of Detroit combined with the huge numbers of people of above average wages who initially migrated here for economic advancement[[in the past) caused a mentality where people would often take risks for change that were predicated on the idea that over the long run the economy and wealth would improve, both on a personal and a macro level. If you didn't believe that, you probably would not have migrated to Detroit from wherever you were at previously.

I remember the theory that people with something to lose often push more for change than those that are beaten down. This would lead to a lot of the behavior that shaped our region: people moving out of their neighborhood in search of a better one. This applies both to white people moving to the suburbs and black people moving to escape housing segregation. This behavior and good automobile based transportation has led to a transitory nature of neighborhoods and community that I think is one of the pet peeves of many on this forum. A desire to have a real, thriving downtown and workable public transportation are key desires of many of us here, but the past trends of the area have conspired to keep this from happening.

Where else do you have institutions like Brightmoor Tabernacle and Catholic Central High School that have moved twice from their original homes, but have kept their names far out in the suburbs? Where do you have people moving to Livingston County to be on the "cutting edge of property appreciation" and then enduring a hellish commute back Redford at the Detroit Diesel plant [[when for the price they paid they could have lived in Ann Arbor or Northville)? Where do you have people disinterring bodies out of graves to be closer to the family?

These trends shape us and are essentially part of Detroit. The collapse here is shocking as well. This discussion is important. I think the author of the linked article is trying to make a philosophical point that may be beyond Detroit, but there is a lot to discuss about the hard times we are facing, and how much of them are based upon our region's rather unique situation.

[LodgeDodger]

The collapse of democratic liberal socialism is before us. Detroit is a study in the destructive power of this statism and the repeated government interventions in the civil society.

The collapse of great societies can arrive quite suddenly. Look after your health!
http://www.lewrockwell.com/north/north828.html

This needs to be moved to non-Detroit issues. Healthcare reform is a national debate. This Tea Bagger is making a lame attempt to raise this debate on yet another forum in an inappropriate area. How typical.

[Detroitej72]

This needs to be moved to non-Detroit issues. Healthcare reform is a national debate. This Tea Bagger is making a lame attempt to raise this debate on yet another forum in an inappropriate area. How typical.

He probably gets paid by the number of posts, thus the need to post on more sites.

[Detroitnerd]

Don't feed the trolls.

[9mile&seneca]

"Its funny how folks like to paint a portrait of a hands off government being a boon to business and society. The economy generated by the military industry from tax dollars in the US was by far the most profitable for all corporations involved. It gave these companies an edge they otherwise wouldnt have had. So yes the government has been heavyhanded but businesses like GM and Boeing, General Dynamics,etc..." Exactly! Eisenhower warned about this in his last state of the union address. Howard Huges became one of the richest men on the planet by being the pioneer of this gravy boat.

[DetroitPlanner]

This thread reminds me of something I read on a sign in Glacier National Park "Do not feed the bears!"

[Retroit]

I agree that the article was not very well thought out. For example, blaming the high rate of "illegitimate" births to tax-funded schools does not make sense, otherwise the illegitimacy rate would be just as high among non-Detroiters educated at tax-funded schools. So, something else is to blame.

But I agree with the general premise of the article: that government intervention has done more harm than good. And yet, to this day, Detroiters still believe that it is the governments' responsibility to improve the city. The truth is that it is not the government that makes a city great, it is the people. And when the people don't even have enough responsibility to take care of themselves and their offspring, then it is no wonder they neglect their neighborhoods and city.

What is most troubling of this thread, however, is the reluctance of some to discuss this issue. This article has everything to do with Detroit, and to relegate it to the Non-Detroit forum would be yet another denial that Detroit has some serious problems that must be addressed.

I think the obstinacy of Detroiters who are unable to visualize a better future is typified in this golden nugget of Detroit wisdom:

Oh, fuck you.

[ghettopalmetto]

I think the obstinacy of Detroiters who are unable to visualize a better future is typified in this golden nugget of Detroit wisdom:

By "a better future", you seem to imply that "less government" is the way to do this. So please tell us why Detroiters should be envious of paragons of limited government like Mississippi and Alabama.

[Detroitnerd]

I agree that the article was not very well thought out. For example, blaming the high rate of "illegitimate" births to tax-funded schools does not make sense, otherwise the illegitimacy rate would be just as high among non-Detroiters educated at tax-funded schools. So, something else is to blame.

But I agree with the general premise of the article: that government intervention has done more harm than good. And yet, to this day, Detroiters still believe that it is the governments' responsibility to improve the city. The truth is that it is not the government that makes a city great, it is the people. And when the people don't even have enough responsibility to take care of themselves and their offspring, then it is no wonder they neglect their neighborhoods and city.

What is most troubling of this thread, however, is the reluctance of some to discuss this issue. This article has everything to do with Detroit, and to relegate it to the Non-Detroit forum would be yet another denial that Detroit has some serious problems that must be addressed.

Oh, yes. Government is the problem, not the solution. Been hearing that one ever since the 1980s.

You hear that more and more online. But, honestly, it’s pretty hard to take it seriously.

Ever hear the one about the people who post on the Internet about how government is the problem? How they wake up to an alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the U.S. Department of Energy? Then they take a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility? Then they turn on the TV to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration has determined the weather will be like, using satellites designed, built and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration? Or how they then eat a breakfast of U.S. Department of Agriculture-inspected food and taking the drugs that have been determined safe by the Food and Drug Administration?

More about these people: At the appropriate time, as regulated by U.S. Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology, as well as the U.S. Naval Observatory, they get into their National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved auto and set out to work on the roads built by local, state and federal departments of transportation. Before leaving the house, they drop any mail they have to be sent out via the U.S. Postal Service. Then they drop the kids off at public school, and possibly stop to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank.

After work, they drive their NHTSA car back home on DOT roads, to a house that didn’t burn down thanks to local and state building codes and mandatory government inspections. It has not been robbed, thanks to the local police department.

Then, after all that, they log onto the Internet, developed by the Pentagon, and post all about how government is bad. Very bad.

Of course, that’s why it’s so hard to take all this anti-government talk very seriously. And it doesn’t take long to figure out that people who are “anti-government� are actually very pro-government, as least as it relates to improving their lives and ensuring their safety and comfort.

Often, what they are actually opposed to is a government that improves the lives of all people. Or other people. Or those people.

And that’s just sad.

[Bearinabox]

What is most troubling of this thread, however, is the reluctance of some to discuss this issue. This article has everything to do with Detroit, and to relegate it to the Non-Detroit forum would be yet another denial that Detroit has some serious problems that must be addressed.

I think the obstinacy of Detroiters who are unable to visualize a better future is typified in this golden nugget of Detroit wisdom:

More like I don't see the point in discussing Detroit's problems with someone whose idea of constructive dialogue is to point at the government and whine. Teabaggers are the problem, not the solution.

[jmcguire39]

All other civilized industrial nations have single payer. They spend on average half what the average american does and get superior care. Our health care system is shit. Watch sicko and wake the fuck up.

[casscorridor]

Because so many Canadian cities are in ruin.....

[TKshreve]

More like I don't see the point in discussing Detroit's problems with someone whose idea of constructive dialogue is to point at the government and whine. Teabaggers are the problem, not the solution.

So please tell us why Detroiters should be envious of paragons of limited government like Mississippi and Alabama.

Are you guys blind? I specifically read this posters main point. It unfortunately sailed right over your heads. It's not about the Gov't. It's about the people of the city.

It takes a community to keep itself clean. To help thy neighbor. To call the police when something fishy is going on next door. To report the drug dealer down the block. To tear down the burned out house...... or construct the next park in its place. Or how about to raise ones kids. To pay your taxes. Keep your lawn cut. Drive responsibly. Vote. Make an educated vote. Help your elderly neighbor. Car pool. Behave responsibly in public. Need I go on?

Is it governments responsibility to handle the above items....... or yours? That's what makes a city.

And yet, to this day, Detroiters still believe that it is the governments' responsibility to improve the city. The truth is that it is not the government that makes a city great, it is the people. And when the people don't even have enough responsibility to take care of themselves and their offspring, then it is no wonder they neglect their neighborhoods and city.

Before you city-proper folks get your panties in a bunch, know that I direct this point to more areas of Detroit than just the city. Most suburbs could use this eye-opener as well.

[Bigb23]

Very well thought out and true, Detroitnerd ! But you can run out of breath trying to explain all that to someone is so fixated on idealology. But here at the government run Library, using free Wifi to listen to the voices of all people, I'll just print out the body of your post, and leave it behind for the curious to read. [[And maybe be inspired).

Thanks