Health care: Going from broken to broke

[Sstashmoo]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sstashmoo
When you increase taxes, you pull money out of the economy.

Quote: "For the second time, show your math."

You can't even make up that sort of stupidity. You're "educated"? If you can prove it, you have grounds for a good lawsuit.

Quote: "Really? My insurance comes from a firm already chosen for me. I have to see a doctor in the network. Where's the competition in that?"

Another one that thinks they will somehow be isolated from the unified screwing. Yes, I'm sure everyone will accommodate your needs, even when it's more expensive and they realize they aren't compelled by law to do so. You're special.

[oladub]

Yet we should ignore every damned thing Dr. Carroll says, and instead listen to opinions of people who live every waking hour scared of the Big Bad Gubment?

Maybe you should stop listening to the folks that keep insisting that the Emperor has a wondrous set of clothes and instead consider that Medicare turned out to be more than nine times as expansive as its promoters claimed. Dr. Carroll has the profile of a promoter who, while supporting single payer health care, is also willing to hawk something quite different and was "awarded more than $2.1 million in direct support through both extramural and intramural funding sources."

Reason # 4572 about why health care is so expensive in America:
Who needs to heal people when snake oil sales tours can be so lucrative?

[mjs]

FirstandTen, you're missing my point. I'm looking for the bill to reduce health care costs as a percent of GDP. There is no reason to believe that Health care costs as a percent of GDP will not continue to go up while the tax revenue will not. My entire point is that the bill does nothing to stop this. When that happens, as it has always happened with government social programs, the program will be spending money it doesn't have. The magicans in DC can call that what they want, but for those of us that can balance a check book, its deficit spending!

Look beyond the first few years after we raised taxes in the midst of a depression and see ten, twenty, thirty years into the future because that's when we might be able to pay for the little holiday shopping spree we're on.

[ghettopalmetto]

Do you mean "using your own brain" or "interjecting your own opinion regardless of facts".

No legislation has been proposed to reduce Medicare benefits.

Also, you're dreaming if you think seniors are going to sit back and calmly accept a 15-20% reduction in Medicare benefits.

Which is it?

[mjs]

FirstandTen's numbers sound like they're about in the ballpark so let's use them:
Ten years of taxes nets $1085 billion which is $108.5 billion per year.
Seven years of benefits costs $938 billion which is $134 billion a year.
Thats an annual loss of $25.5 billion per year.

To use an easy analogy, if you own a lemonade stand and sell $108.50 worth of lemonade and the lemons, sugar, and cups cost you $134, you lost $25.50. Now even if you think mommy and daddy are rich and the guy selling lemons is mean and the people drinking the lemonade had nothing else to drink and you get to run the lemonade stand year after year, you still lost $25.50.

[ghettopalmetto]

FirstandTen's numbers sound like they're about in the ballpark so let's use them:
Ten years of taxes nets $1085 billion which is $108.5 billion per year.
Seven years of benefits costs $938 billion which is $134 billion a year.
Thats an annual loss of $25.5 billion per year.

To use an easy analogy, if you own a lemonade stand and sell $108.50 worth of lemonade and the lemons, sugar, and cups cost you $134, you lost $25.50. Now even if you think mommy and daddy are rich and the guy selling lemons is mean and the people drinking the lemonade had nothing else to drink and you get to run the lemonade stand year after year, you still lost $25.50.

Perhaps you can explain why the projected deficit reduction is even larger [[by THREE orders of magnitude) over the second 10 years than the first 10 years.

In my opinion, Republicans hate this bill because not only does it increase the social safety net, but does so while providing the largest deficit reduction measure since Bill Clinton's 1993 budget.

[mjs]

I haven't read the projection so I can't. Post the link and I'll read it when I get a chance so I can tell you what it says.

You guys really crack me up. When I criticize a Republican, I must be a blindly following Democrat. When I criticize a Democrat, I must be a blindly following Republican. Stick to the topic, not the speaker.

If I thought it would have a long term positive effect on the deficit and health care costs, I'd be all for it. My predictions are based on logic and data. Yours are based on the belief I'd cheer for a team full of people I have never personally meet.

[jiminnm]

Do you mean "using your own brain" or "interjecting your own opinion regardless of facts".
Which is it?

Please explain what facts I am disregarding. The alleged Medicare savings would represent a 15-20% reduction in payments. Where are the program changes to effect that change? They do not, and will not, exist. Instead, the Dems now propose to increase payments [[but somehow think that it is not related to the decreases already passed). Additionally, the voting seniors will not allow program decreases because they will vote out anyone who allows them to come into being and vote in anyone who promises to restore benefits.

[maxx]

Quote: "I met people like that when I was registering people to vote."

People that can think for themselves without following the party program? Yeah, there are a few of us around..

No, people whose only stand is that there is not enough difference between the major parties to make them bother to vote or none of the candidates are perfect. That's how we ended up with the shrub's admin. Evil triumphs when good people do nothing.

[Papasito]

A business owner came into my job today. He has five employees. With the size of his company and the size of his profit margin, he says he can not afford to pay for Health Care. He is going to close his company down.

A doctor came into my job earlier this week. He has an office with eight employees. He can make more money working in China and is making preperations to move his operations there.

[mjs]

I'm pretty sure companies with under 40 employees are exempt. He should talk to an advisor first. He could probably even get an answer from his legislator.

[Papasito]

Somehow in today's age, being industrial is considered a dirty word. Harnessing resources, building factories, having a growing and expanding consumer base, and giving your home country the advantage over foreigners, all considered BAD.

We will never see boom times again with this warped attitude.
All we are growing are masses to suckle onto government.
A once great nation is poised to collapse.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "No, people whose only stand is that there is not enough difference between the major parties to make them bother to vote or none of the candidates are perfect."

So are you suggesting folks should just vote no matter whom the special interests have picked for us? Sorry, but bad and worse are not satisfactory characteristics to base a decision upon. By not voting, one is making a statement, they know whats up and are objecting.

Quote: "That's how we ended up with the shrub's admin."

He was appointed once by the supreme court and again made it in under questionable circumstances.

Quote: "A doctor came into my job earlier this week. He has an office with eight employees. He can make more money working in China and is making preperations to move his operations there. "

Was it Batty? hehe

[ghettopalmetto]

A business owner came into my job today. He has five employees. With the size of his company and the size of his profit margin, he says he can not afford to pay for Health Care. He is going to close his company down.

A doctor came into my job earlier this week. He has an office with eight employees. He can make more money working in China and is making preperations to move his operations there.

The business owner in your example, then, is stupid, and should probably not own a business in the first place. No business owner in his right mind makes such a drastic decision without all the information. For example, he might want to learn how much said health care would cost him, and perhaps he'd like to know that since he employs less than 50 people, he is exempt from providing health insurance.

Your unnamed doctor sounds like a real class act, too, putting profit ahead of people. Better look out for those Communists, though! I'm sure they have things like "regulations" in China, not to mention a swift death sentence should you find yourself guilty of malpractice.

[Papasito]

The business owner in your example, then, is stupid, and should probably not own a business in the first place.

wow, way to judge other people. don't you think these small business owners are advised of what the government requires them to do? people are all required to get health care. the government has made it a law , punishable by fines and jail time if you dont pay the fines.

Better look out for those Communists, though! I'm sure they have things like "regulations" in China

unless youre living under a rock, you'd see the US's business practices are becoming more Communist, and China's business practices are becoming more capitalist. Our economy is in the tank and our industrial base is in shambles, China's is booming and their global influence is growing. Businesses are flocking to China, there is a massive global power shift going on right now.

[Papasito]

Your unnamed doctor sounds like a real class act, too, putting profit ahead of people

I think it's very funny that the bleeding hearts think that it's evil for Doctors to dare to make a substantial income. These professionals spend a decade of their lives educating themselves for the job, six figures and more going into their education costs, then they finally get to practice what they trained for and are suddenly evil monsters because they dare to make money off of what they dedicated massive investment to do for a living.

Many doctors perform services to the poor for free, here and all over the world. They do make a decent living, but give back to humanity out of their own free will. I know a plastic surgeon out of Miami that regularly does cleft lip and other surgeries to the poor in South Florida and South America.

These doctors are the good people about to get the big shaft. They have massive student loans to pay back. And if America thinks these professionals should work for pennies or for nothing at all, they can and will move to more favorable climates.

[Detroitej72]

I think it's very funny that the bleeding hearts think that it's evil for Doctors to dare to make a substantial income.

I think it's funny that cons think the masses should be grateful to work, let alone bring home a reasonable salary.

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "I think it's funny that cons think the masses should be grateful to work,"

With unemployment in double digits, anyone working should be grateful.

[maxx]

Quote: "I think it's funny that cons think the masses should be grateful to work,"

With unemployment in double digits, anyone working should be grateful.

The business community relies on that line of thinking. Anyone believe that the salaried people who lost their jobs are going to get hired back at the same salaries? I won't even discuss the hourly workers. Screw thy neighbor is the American way of doing business.

And I think the idea of taking your money out of any major bank is a good idea. They have lost the trust of the people with their mortgage games.

[Papasito]

The economy in the toilet and the lack of jobs falls squarely on the shoulders of both political parties. "cons" and "libs". please don't make me give you a history lesson. this point has been hashed out time and time again on these forums.

the point of my post, if you missed it, is that people who have become Doctors have put massive investments of time and money into thier education. If there is no money in this field, people will stop making these investments. last time I checked, going to school and becoming a Doctor in America wasn't free. It's not a 2 year course at a community college. who's going to do it for $25k a year? you cant even afford your own malpractice insurance making that kind of money, or make the payment on the massive student loans. it's not community service work, it's a profession.

[maxx]

The economy in the toilet and the lack of jobs falls squarely on the shoulders of both political parties. "cons" and "libs". please don't make me give you a history lesson. this point has been hashed out time and time again on these forums.

And it was Reagan and the Republicans who were always touting the virtues of the free market. Well, the market got really free of regulations, and here we are.

the point of my post, if you missed it, is that people who have become Doctors have put massive investments of time and money into thier education. If there is no money in this field, people will stop making these investments. last time I checked, going to school and becoming a Doctor in America wasn't free. It's not a 2 year course at a community college. who's going to do it for $25k a year? you cant even afford your own malpractice insurance making that kind of money, or make the payment on the massive student loans. it's not community service work, it's a profession.

And I still want to know why medical school costs so much in the U.S. and keeps rising. Cuba offers free medical school to people including those from the U.S.. I think you have to prove that you are poor. And health care should not be just another commodity bought and sold on the stock market. It is people's lives. And doctoring used to be considered a service, not a ticket to millions.

http://dccofc.org/Information/cuba_medical.htm

[Sstashmoo]

Quote: "Anyone believe that the salaried people who lost their jobs are going to get hired back at the same salaries?"

Anyone believe US companies will post the sort of earnings they were a few years ago? You and Ghetto must have been in the same math class. Where values can be negative or positive, your choice, and any number can be adjusted.

[mjs]

And it was Reagan and the Republicans who were always touting the virtues of the free market. Well, the market got really free of regulations, and here we are.

Take off the blinders and judge the politicians on what they do rather than what they say. Gramm-Leach-Bliley, which repealed Glass-Steagall, had one of the most bipartisan votes I have ever seen. Both parties overwhelmingly voted for it and then gave celebratory speechs praising how it was issuing in a new era of fantastic growth and prosperity. After fifty years without the dramatic economic cycles that plagued the previous hundred years, Gramm-Leach-Bliley put us into a depression in under eight years. Now, that its obvious to every half-wit in America that we should return to Glass-Steagall, there's only one bill asking such, and that was written a Republican and is buried in a commiteee of a Democratic Congress. Ask the Democrats you blindly follow why they still won't repeal Gramm-Leach-Bliley. Ask them why its repeal wasn't part of the bank bailout legislation they were so hot to pass.

[maxx]

Quote: "Anyone believe that the salaried people who lost their jobs are going to get hired back at the same salaries?"

Anyone believe US companies will post the sort of earnings they were a few years ago? You and Ghetto must have been in the same math class. Where values can be negative or positive, your choice, and any number can be adjusted.

Just check out how much the median wage in the U.S. has risen since 1975. And yet we keep getting more millionaires and even billionaires.

[maxx]

One person's take on repealing Gramm-Leach-B:

http://www.allbusiness.com/banking-f...3485465-1.html

"...The U.S. response to the Bank of England notes that Bear and Lehman did not have [COLOR=#336699 ! important][COLOR=#336699 ! important]commercial [COLOR=#336699 ! important]lending[/color][/color][/color] operations but were systemically important. Further, downsizing or splitting up large firms could end up being far more difficult than the breakup of AT&T in the 1970s..."

http://www.slate.com/id/2247558/

Here's the latest on AIG:
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...1050546AAhMG8c